jlo34

Five,
I thought your words sounded familiar. I wasn't too sure if it was Mill or Andy. I didn't think it quite sounded like Andy though.

Ok - all of you from England!!! Here's a question - why is it that of all you here I can think of (with exception of JC) are all anti-God? Is it something about your culture or what? I mean, seems like all of the ones I have read; I look at location and it has England there... Just curious - from a naive Michigander!

Jen

Hopefloats

I did not have time to read all the responses here tonight. As the mother of an addict, I only care that someone's miracle happened. I only care that another life has been saved. Will James continue on with his sobriety? No-one knows that. People relapse all of the time. People that go to AA and those that do not. All I care about is another human life has been saved.

I read the book, LOVED it. I am now reading My Friend Leonard. I wish James continued success. He is someone's loved one. It could be my daughter..and hopefully one day she will have her own success story. AND if she should get clean, and manage to stay that way, I will never argue with her about what she could of done, or should be doing. I will again, celebrate every second of that life that was saved.

Prayers to all those still suffering and for those that find recovery.....well...I thank my HP. That is all I know. Thirteen years is a long, long time....and I want another 13 and another and another.....
Hopefloats

2dayzmuse

It's good to hear from you Mill. I'm glad you're back.

I agree with Dan. In the beginning, the religious overtones about sent me running for the door. Anymore than that and I wouldn't have stuck around long enough to experience the miracle.

It seems to me, when a alcoholic walks through the door, they have two choices. Drink or don't drink. Live or die. Anything more than that just complicates things. Keep it simple.

Sweet memories...

FriendofBill

Wonder what your motive was for masquerading here, Millwallj....

Are you interested in recovery, or causing chaos?

Don S

Oh, goody, now we get to start questioning peoples' motives! Seems to me that anyone who does that might start by explaining their own.

equus

I think our culture is less inclined towards religion these days, we were in the vitorian era, colonies, missionaries etc, but I think (most?) people see that as a time when our country did many VERY wrong things. I reckon there's an awareness that our power mad egotistical period of history was at least partly fuelled by religion.

Personally, I'm not anti god or believers, it's hard to be anti something you don't actually think is out there and there are believers I have enormous respect for. I think we are culturally VERY opposed to being told what to think or mass conformity.

This is ONLY my perception as one individual - I might live here but it doesn't make me an expert!

minnie

I also think we tend towards cynicism as a nation. Or, realism, depending on what you prefer. And many of our citizens seem to prefer to worship at the feet of celebrities instead.

I was raised to make up my own mind. I choose not to believe in a Big Guy in the Sky. I do have faith, and I only call this a HP to avoid confusion in Al-anon. I am not anti-God at all and certainly not anti-believer. It's just not my bag.I do know that, were I or many of my friends alcoholic and we went to AA meetings and heard some things that I read on the boards everyday about God, we would run a mile. Or maybe not. Maybe we would be able to take what we like and leave the rest as I have in Al-anon. And perhaps Al-anon meetings would have been more of a challenge in that way were I in the States, I don't know.

p.s "Are you anti-god?" You aren't accusing us English of being Satan, are you? Not that I believe in Satan either......

Dan

Precisely the point I was trying to make earlier Minnie. A return to it's religious roots would definitely be a step backwards for AA, as a program of recovery. With that said, I believe it to be a positive thing that it is still the group conscience that decides, for example, if the lord's prayer is included in the meeting format.
Well, there is that issue of Benny Hill...

minnie

Yes, I know, hon. Every day I am glad that I am not an alcoholic and none more so than when we discuss things like this.

I am interested in why alternatives to AA haven't taken off so much over here exactly for the reasons that jlo has observed. Or perhaps there are a lot of people who are going it "alone" and we don't often get to hear about them.

And you can't pin the Benny Hill thing on me, matey. I'm far too young to have had anything to do with that.

equus

I think it will but it takes time, a successful minority in the US equals a far greater number of people than in the UK because of our population size. The SMART programme would be a good example, they are backed by VERY big USA guns in mental health and addiction and (I think) this has been aided by the numbers of US citizens using SMART. It may be tiny in comparison to AA but within a larger poulation that's still enough to get some attention and backing. I believe the same will happen in the UK for alternatives - I hope SMART grows in the UK, but I think it'll take a little bit longer.

Again I think 'Al-Anon' alternatives face similar challenges of numbers. Being a less well known group in the first instance doesn't help (okay we know about al-anon but I believe nearly every person on the street knows what AA is but I doubt the same would be true re al-anon). Couple that with a lower poulation and I think those of us who want alternatives in the UK need to get active in encouraging them.

It can seem as though one approach has an unending monoploy but given time most things change. To use an example from psychology at one point psycho ANALYSIS (particularly Freudian) as apposed to other methods of psycho THERAPY held what seemed to be an absolute dominance in perceptions of how to treat emotional distress and understand our psychological processes. Fast forward one century and acedemically Freud is barely taught, usually only one lecture 1st year students - essays arguing for/against his theories are rarely given at uni, but sometimes in schools - it's too easy!

Psycho ANALYSIS remains available for those who chose it but has certainly been superceded by CBT, humanistic approaches, and eclectic methods, analysis itself isn't even dominant within most psycho therapy - at least not the therapist analysing the client, now it's the therapist facilitating the clients self analysis!

If we could time travel back to when Freud ruled the world of psychology I believe (very strongly) there would exist therapists who could still make that work for patients, who could still achieve success. There would also be many who saw Freud as a hero of science, which is reasonable bearing in mind he replaced some even stranger theories such as the woman's womb running around her body!! (hence the word 'hysteria'). At that time I would think there were many people RIGHTLY grateful for Freud's cathartic methods, with teh choices they had it was a needed service. Without it I doubt we would have learned what we needed to for treatments to evolve. Bottom line? I'm glad Freud played his part - I'm glad we didn't stay stuck in his principles!

There were also those who questioned the seemingly overwhelmingly RIGHT answer offered by Freud. They must have at times felt the tide against them was hopeless! However if it wasn't for their efforts psychology would still be thinking the ink blot test worked better than actually asking someone what they believe and feel.

It's best not to be daunted by change taking time - some things like this can take a century or so but are no less needed and they need those who'll keep going to change at all.

In the mean time we all have to make individual decisions with the PRESENT reality of what's available. And I think being grateful for what's available doesn't hurt. I think where gartitude closes a mind, that can hurt - not the gratitude but allowing it to force the mind shut.

Judging by this thread alone James Frey has opened discussion, and certainly the responses to this thread I've found educational. If his book has that impact on a larger scale it'll be all good.

Don S

Of course, agnosticism and atheism aren't inherently 'anti'-god. Gods aren't necessarily important to people who don't believe in them.

Actually, it isn't that the UK is especially non-religious--it's that the US is unusually religious compared to all those other countries except Ireland, at least in the values that we profess. Here's some data, and lest one think that church attendance correlates with reduced alcohol consumption I've included data about per capita consumption for comparison:
-------------------------

53% of Americans consider religion to be very important in their lives. This compares with 16% in Britain, 14% in France and 13% in Germany.

Percent of adults who attend religious services at least once a week:
[compared to alcohol consumption rate* = pure alcohol in liters per adult >15 y/o]

Country
% Attendance

Ireland
84%
[per capita consumption of pure alcohol: 14.45 litres]

Italy
45%
[per capita consumption of pure alcohol: 9.14 litres]


United States
44%
[per capita consumption of pure alcohol: 8.51 litres]

Canada
38%
[per capita consumption of pure alcohol: 8.26 litres]

Britain
27%
[per capita consumption of pure alcohol: 10.39 litres]

France
21%
[per capita consumption of pure alcohol: 13.54 litres]

* Based on 1990-1991 survey data.

These numbers are somewhat suspect. Church attendance data in the U.S. has been checked against actual values using two different techniques. The true figures show that only about 20% of Americans and 10% of Canadians actually go to church one or more times a week. Many Americans and Canadians tell pollsters that they have gone to church even though they have not. Whether this happens in other countries, with different cultures, is difficult to predict.

Data is from 1999. For years, pollsters have been asking adult Americans whether they go to church regularly. The results have not changed much over time. Recent estimates of the percentage of adult Americans who claimed to have attended weekly services during the past week are:

38% by the National Opinion Research Center

44% by the Institute for Social Research's World Values survey. This institute is located at the University of Michigan. 4

41% by the Barna Research Group Attendance over the previous week dropped from 49% in 1991 to 41% in 1999 5

40% by National Election Studies. Their poll shows that in 1996, 25% of adult Americans claimed to attend church, synagogue or temple every week; 12% almost every week; 16% once or twice a month, 18% a few times a year, and 30% never. 6 Assuming that "almost every week" means 3 weeks out of 4, then these data indicate 40% attendance.

The Gallup Organization measured attendance at 41% during 2001-MAY. 8


The figure of 40% church attendance appears widely in the media.

But, two studies have cast a grave doubt on these data:

Sociologist Stanley Presser (also of the University of Maryland) completed a study of notes in personal diaries that were written between the mid '60s until the '90s. They found that many Americans were not at church when they claimed to be. Their best estimate is that church attendance was about 26% during that interval.

Recent studies have been made of individual counties in both the U.S. and Canada. Researchers counted individuals as they went into church, synagogue, etc. They later interviewed a random sampling of adults in the county. They found that the survey results were inflated by about 100% from the actual attendance figures. Although about 40% of the American adults said that they attended church, the actual value was about 20%. Canadians lied by the same percentage.


The only Western Christian country which has a church attendance higher than that of the U.S. is Ireland. More than 90% of adults went to church during the 1960's. A poll by Irish Marketing Surveys released in 1999-DEC, found that only half of the population of the Irish Republic currently attended church weekly. (This is a reduction from about 63% in 1998). 10% went once a month; 5% went on holy days; 13% never went to church at all. A spokesperson for the Archbishop of Dublin blamed the recent reduction on a series of sex scandals by priests in the Roman Catholic church.

The next highest church attendance is believed to be Canada where 20% of the adult population say that they go to church weekly. Again, half were lying, as only about 10% actually attend church weekly.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/rel_rate.htm
[bracketed data inserted from WHO database]

Five

I am not Anti God.

That is illogical. Its like saying I am anti aliens.

Five

Including myself, I think relaxing, pondering and processing our lives, and not being ashamed of who we are is essential.

It all becomes so narrow at times. A question of right and left, up and down. We become labelled, horribly, no matter what we try and do. Its like we always seem guilty of the same crime: a no win. So its pointless me trying to disprove the twelve steps, because like beliefs as part of human nature, for some they are true, they are reality. And I certainly wouldnt want people messing with my reality....back to square one: no win.

Does recovery need rationalists? Atheists? Agnostics? Checking through history books it would seem that it does.

susane1408

The BBC is doing a survey on belief in God; as it stands 23 percent of 10,135 do believe.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbcfour/documen.../atheism.shtml

Five

UK religious belief is watched like a hark. Thats not to say its "against" - but the idea of tolerance is essential.

I guess we are all veggie, tree hugging, liberal, whispy, musliea eating freaks.

Fine by me.

equus

I wonder if they see us that way in Iraq? Or if they saw us that way through centuries of colonailism? However I think there is a very real shift in attitude in the UK - more towards your description, although done in a classically tongue in cheek, cynical way.

Five

]

Iraq aside, and that is a big aside, we are a lot better. I think. It could be a lot worse.

The environment is more of a political concern for me at the mo. I think the political climate in England could be a lot worse.

Five

Fear of relapse: that is why, I think, these arguments can seem so close to home. Fear that others will relapse if they read it, fear that by not sticking to certain rules that themselves or others will relapse.

It becomes morally wrong because someone could read and relapse. That is such a huge moral issue in itself. A really big one. But you have to look at where this fear exists and where it doesn't.

Anyway, 5.

Dan

Read what, and relapse?

jlo34

Thank you - your responses were helpful to that question...sorry if "anti-God" was the wrong term... I'm one of those black or white people then after time fall perhaps into the gray.

Don - as for religion.... I am NOT religious. I am 31 and have been inside a church, perhaps 5 times for a ceremony (aside from weddings/funerals). I know we have had prior debates regarding religion & AA. I don't understand the whole religion thing - I don't understand why people "go" to church - though I have thought about trying church at different times of my life. I just wasn't brought up that way. I don't understand the whole "you'll go to Hell if you....." thing. Or "it's a sin" thing. I have my own understanding of my HP - whom I do call God today. My HP does NOT probably fit into the "typical" religious mold.

The whole idea of religion generally really turns me off. The concept of spirituality is what saved my life - the AA version. I guess over the years I've just slowly adapted my concept to what I believe now. When I first got into AA, I had no idea how to pray or even the words to the Lord's prayer.

I just found it really interesting that those of you from England (on this board) seem the most resistant to a reliance upon a HP.

Jen