Thoughts on booze-masters/AA etc, having now been dry for weeks.
We all need each other.
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: The road of happy destiny.
Posts: 2,294
That whole "my best thinking is what got me here" is something I don't hear much around here. Maybe I'm just not going to the right meetings, though. LOL! Anyway, I've been thinking about it alot, trying to figure out what that means to me. If you changed the statement to something like, "my best thinking ALONE got me here," or something like that it would make more sense to me. Being alone in my own head can be rather frightening. I can think myself in circles and make myself absolutely crazy. When I learned to ask for help, the main thing I needed help with was how to sort out and make sense of what I was thinking and how I was feeling. After all, the two are inter-connected. Now, I get a LOT of help by coming here, listening to what others are thinking about, processing that information and applying it to my own life. Most of the time I can't really do that unless I talk to someone else. Does any of this make sense? Anyway, it is what I was thinking!!!!
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Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Leaving Sparta
Posts: 2,912
"My best thinking got me in TROUBLE.......which got me here...."
Being a little on the "intellectual" side myself, I find nothing wrong with a bit of "intellectualizing"........however, faced with the grim reality of my alcoholism I found it more prudent to allow myself to be guided by others who had found a way out of the abyss instead of "analyzing" the pros and cons of recovery theories and methods.....
Being a little on the "intellectual" side myself, I find nothing wrong with a bit of "intellectualizing"........however, faced with the grim reality of my alcoholism I found it more prudent to allow myself to be guided by others who had found a way out of the abyss instead of "analyzing" the pros and cons of recovery theories and methods.....
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Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: London
Posts: 501
I guess it all comes down to how you perceive the world. A religious outlook borders on the anti intellectual - where by all, or most questions, are answered by faith. if everyone got closer to God, everything would be groovey. That is why, I believe, "thinking" is not really promoted in AA - because the main aim is to get yourself closer to God. It says it quite clearly that a pschic change is needed. How do you get that: by adopting AA's beliefs. The path to God is by faith, not by thought.
Theologians are exceptions to this I guess.
"We must let go of our old ideas completley". It says it in the big book. That to me is a total out with the old, in with the new. Sometimes quickly sometimes slowly. To some this is a great way of doing things, to others not so great. It depends on what you deem fit I guess.
Slogans, hypnotic readings, thought stoping cliches, and a learned state of helplessness all eventually evoke that pschic change. "The aim is to be as hard on the alcoholic as possible" is Bill W's terminology.
(OR: helpful slogans, coping methods, inspiring readings - its that perception thing again).
The reason I feel why it is not "spiritual" but religious is because the steps tell you how God works - what he likes and what he does not like - what you need to get closer to him etc. It quickly goes from "as you understand him" to a moral, over lording punishing (by drinking again) God that is very much Christian.
Call me cynicle but the discomfort I felt in AA was because of all of the above. I thought "hang, something is fishy here". I walked away when I started noticing others "defects", and started to see people as "ego" or spiritual - fu ck that for a laugh, I didnt ask for that. But the process got me to that.
THe more your thinking, the more "your way" lets you down, the closer you pull to the programme. The more discomfort you feel, the more comfort you find in AA's beliefs. So the more dysfunctional our lives become, the more answers there are in the programme. Resulting in a total faith in God. We get that power.
Bill W, that swarve lunatic, knew he had to pull a few strings. But if you look, perhaps look objectively, its quite clear what he was trying to do.
Theologians are exceptions to this I guess.
"We must let go of our old ideas completley". It says it in the big book. That to me is a total out with the old, in with the new. Sometimes quickly sometimes slowly. To some this is a great way of doing things, to others not so great. It depends on what you deem fit I guess.
Slogans, hypnotic readings, thought stoping cliches, and a learned state of helplessness all eventually evoke that pschic change. "The aim is to be as hard on the alcoholic as possible" is Bill W's terminology.
(OR: helpful slogans, coping methods, inspiring readings - its that perception thing again).
The reason I feel why it is not "spiritual" but religious is because the steps tell you how God works - what he likes and what he does not like - what you need to get closer to him etc. It quickly goes from "as you understand him" to a moral, over lording punishing (by drinking again) God that is very much Christian.
Call me cynicle but the discomfort I felt in AA was because of all of the above. I thought "hang, something is fishy here". I walked away when I started noticing others "defects", and started to see people as "ego" or spiritual - fu ck that for a laugh, I didnt ask for that. But the process got me to that.
THe more your thinking, the more "your way" lets you down, the closer you pull to the programme. The more discomfort you feel, the more comfort you find in AA's beliefs. So the more dysfunctional our lives become, the more answers there are in the programme. Resulting in a total faith in God. We get that power.
Bill W, that swarve lunatic, knew he had to pull a few strings. But if you look, perhaps look objectively, its quite clear what he was trying to do.
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Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Zion, Illinois
Posts: 3,411
Mill, you just gave a good example of
why it's dangerous to sit around and get into your own head. I don't know where you come up with this dribble, but I don't want to go there. I'll take your suggestion and call you "cynicle" amongst a few other things I could think up but I won't take the time nor the effort to go there either.
Not the center of the Universe
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Orchard Lake, Michigan
Posts: 974
Originally Posted by lulu70
If you changed the statement to something like, "my best thinking ALONE got me here," or something like that it would make more sense to me. Being alone in my own head can be rather frightening.
Originally Posted by Peter
"My best thinking got me in TROUBLE.......which got me here...."
Originally Posted by minnie
Surely it means that your best thinking that you were capable of at the time got you there?
Originally Posted by doorknob
My worst thinking got me here. Hopefully, my best thinking will get me out!
Originally Posted by music
When I was told "my best thinking is what got me here," it made perfect sense to me. See, when I was drinking, all my thoughts were drug affected. I thought I was making sense when my wife said something and a drink seemed like a good idea. I thought it made sense when someone at work pissed me of and a drink seemed like a good idea.
Originally Posted by DangerousDan
My best sick and delusional thinking convinced me that my behaviors were rational.
Anyone want to take a shot at "The farther away we are from our last drink the closer we are to the next one"?
One Love, One Heart,
Tony
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Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: London
Posts: 501
From my own experience Music, I know denial is a powerful thing.
I cannot deny what and how I saw AA operate.
Once the light bulb goes on ya just cant turn it off again.
I will lie to new comers because I believe it is a chance but it certainley is'nt the way for me. And part of finding my way is proving all the b ullshit I heard in AA as false nonesense - nonesense that either made me serene and dead or guilty and shame ridden. So if you dont like my way, jog on my friend and keep to whats working. I am sure you can have a big ol laugh and sit proud with your beliefs if I start drinking again.
I dont blame people like you. I blame the weirdos and wretches who protect that damn literature. A bit of humility is all that is needed to change AA for good, so that 5% success rate might improve somewhat. Infact I dont really blame anyone anymore. AA is AA is AA. It wont change for me, nor should I expect it to. I am done with it and have made a little peace with it. But to deny what I saw and to call in nuts, as you have just done, just confirms to me that I thank God I had that moment of clarity and left the thing when I did.
I cannot deny what and how I saw AA operate.
Once the light bulb goes on ya just cant turn it off again.
I will lie to new comers because I believe it is a chance but it certainley is'nt the way for me. And part of finding my way is proving all the b ullshit I heard in AA as false nonesense - nonesense that either made me serene and dead or guilty and shame ridden. So if you dont like my way, jog on my friend and keep to whats working. I am sure you can have a big ol laugh and sit proud with your beliefs if I start drinking again.
I dont blame people like you. I blame the weirdos and wretches who protect that damn literature. A bit of humility is all that is needed to change AA for good, so that 5% success rate might improve somewhat. Infact I dont really blame anyone anymore. AA is AA is AA. It wont change for me, nor should I expect it to. I am done with it and have made a little peace with it. But to deny what I saw and to call in nuts, as you have just done, just confirms to me that I thank God I had that moment of clarity and left the thing when I did.
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Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: London
Posts: 501
I beleive in the power of we too - another reason why I left.
I knew that a belief in God slowly made me loose interest in the complexities of others; seeing instead: pride, selfishness, dishonesty, etc etc. People brilliance was replaced by the ever lastingly boring power of God - yawn.
I knew that a belief in God slowly made me loose interest in the complexities of others; seeing instead: pride, selfishness, dishonesty, etc etc. People brilliance was replaced by the ever lastingly boring power of God - yawn.
learning
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Where I need to be
Posts: 310
Hi guys,
This discussion is very interesting. People who practice 12 step or CBT based recovery methods tend to quibble over this “best / worst” thinking issue. The reason that I find this so interesting is because I think in both instances we are describing changing our thinking, we just describe it differently.
A 12-step explanation is “to get out of your own head” which is really not what the person does. The person might practice a form of what we at SMART call “Stop thought” and then replace those thoughts with 12-step slogans, steps, or input from other 12-step practitioners, but the end result is a change in thinking.
The CBT approach, post “stop thought,” is to use some tools to reinforce the costs and benefits of the problem behavior or to examine your thoughts, disarm the unhealthy ones, and replace them with healthy thoughts that promote actions that you have deemed to be in your own best interest. The end result is a change in thinking.
Call it your own best or worst thinking. It doesn’t really matter. The key lies in changing that thinking to support your recovery.
Two roads that lead to the same place really.
This discussion is very interesting. People who practice 12 step or CBT based recovery methods tend to quibble over this “best / worst” thinking issue. The reason that I find this so interesting is because I think in both instances we are describing changing our thinking, we just describe it differently.
A 12-step explanation is “to get out of your own head” which is really not what the person does. The person might practice a form of what we at SMART call “Stop thought” and then replace those thoughts with 12-step slogans, steps, or input from other 12-step practitioners, but the end result is a change in thinking.
The CBT approach, post “stop thought,” is to use some tools to reinforce the costs and benefits of the problem behavior or to examine your thoughts, disarm the unhealthy ones, and replace them with healthy thoughts that promote actions that you have deemed to be in your own best interest. The end result is a change in thinking.
Call it your own best or worst thinking. It doesn’t really matter. The key lies in changing that thinking to support your recovery.
Two roads that lead to the same place really.
Member
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Zion, Illinois
Posts: 3,411
Originally Posted by Millwallj
I will lie to new comers because I believe it is a chance but it certainley is'nt the way for me.
Paused
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Washington
Posts: 5,093
Originally Posted by Millwallj
Bill W, that swarve lunatic, knew he had to pull a few strings. But if you look, perhaps look objectively, its quite clear what he was trying to do.
Bill W, that swarve lunatic, knew he had to pull a few strings. But if you look, perhaps look objectively, its quite clear what he was trying to do.
On a personal level, my life has become less dysfunctional due to the program. When my life becomes chaotic and I feel out of sorts, I take it to my HP, not the program. AA isn't meant to be a place to unload all of my personal problems. I work through them with the help of my sponsor and working the steps.
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Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: London
Posts: 501
I lie because I dont tell them the whole of my experience - everyone should have an equal choice and I am not going to tell anyone to not go to AA just because I did not like it.
anyway, lets leave it. I am trying to move on.
anyway, lets leave it. I am trying to move on.
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Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Leaving Sparta
Posts: 2,912
[QUOTE=Millwallj] That is why, I believe, "thinking" is not really promoted in AA - because the main aim is to get yourself closer to God. It says it quite clearly that a pschic change is needed. How do you get that: by adopting AA's beliefs. The path to God is by faith, not by thought.
Just out of curiosity Mill ?
Are you sober?
How long have you been sober?
What method did you utilize to obtain sobriety?
.....and, do you mind sharing some of that method ?
Much of what you have just expounded on AA is extremely warped.
One of the main symptoms of alcoholism is the alcoholics uncanny ability to "rationalize"........he will rationalize every aspect of life to try and justify his reasons for drinking.........
.....old timers in AA know this, so when I went to AA it was suggested to me that I neeed to stop trying so hard to find my own solutions to curing my disease and to stop thinking that one day it will get better....in other words I needed to shut off my "analytical" machine for a while and listen to what AA had to say......any AA'er will tell you......."Try it.If you don't like it then you are free to leave."
Perhaps you have been misguided by some well meaning AA member that steered you wrong.Perhaps you did not take the time to try and understand what was being said to you.......
Of course you are right when you say that faith is the foundation of any spiritual belief but coming to believe in a higher power has not stopped me from thinking. On the contrary it is through the process of logic that I have proven to myself the existence of "God."
Guys, I do not know any AA'er who agrees 100% with everything they hear in AA.
I too found many of the things I heard offensive and even today I still find them objectionable....."My best thinking got me here...." is one of them.
However I happen to believe that this was a misquoted phrase from another 12 Step fellowship that was borrowed by an AA member and it unfortunately caught on in AA.......
Be careful what you say to the newcomer be it here or in a meeting and whatever you do "Don't lie to them...." they will know we are lying if we try to dramatize or minimize our experiences.
Just out of curiosity Mill ?
Are you sober?
How long have you been sober?
What method did you utilize to obtain sobriety?
.....and, do you mind sharing some of that method ?
Much of what you have just expounded on AA is extremely warped.
One of the main symptoms of alcoholism is the alcoholics uncanny ability to "rationalize"........he will rationalize every aspect of life to try and justify his reasons for drinking.........
.....old timers in AA know this, so when I went to AA it was suggested to me that I neeed to stop trying so hard to find my own solutions to curing my disease and to stop thinking that one day it will get better....in other words I needed to shut off my "analytical" machine for a while and listen to what AA had to say......any AA'er will tell you......."Try it.If you don't like it then you are free to leave."
Perhaps you have been misguided by some well meaning AA member that steered you wrong.Perhaps you did not take the time to try and understand what was being said to you.......
Of course you are right when you say that faith is the foundation of any spiritual belief but coming to believe in a higher power has not stopped me from thinking. On the contrary it is through the process of logic that I have proven to myself the existence of "God."
Guys, I do not know any AA'er who agrees 100% with everything they hear in AA.
I too found many of the things I heard offensive and even today I still find them objectionable....."My best thinking got me here...." is one of them.
However I happen to believe that this was a misquoted phrase from another 12 Step fellowship that was borrowed by an AA member and it unfortunately caught on in AA.......
Be careful what you say to the newcomer be it here or in a meeting and whatever you do "Don't lie to them...." they will know we are lying if we try to dramatize or minimize our experiences.
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