ChampionRabbit

Read a book on psychology from the 60s recently called 'Games people play'. Has a very, very interesting section on the alcoholic mind. The author (Eric Berne) holds (held) that alcoholics are as much addicted to hangovers as they are booze. He states that the chaos of alcoholism is addictive and this is why ex-alkies choose to hang-out with active alkies after they should be 'recovered'.

I thought this was interesting in terms of AA.

AA tells people that they are never cured, but rather must attend for life. Why? Clearly that's not true, otherwise it would be impossible to get sober without AA (or at least life-long group therapy).

Perhaps then AA merely excuses the impulse of alkies to hang-around with users, thus vicariously experiencing the chaos, but without the drain on one's health or bank-balance?

Spectator sport almost.

Interesting I thought.

Music

Ya know something Rabbit. Doing what you're doing is exactly why people have a problem getting sober and staying sober. They read crap like that and then make the mistake of thinking about it. I've been in AA for a while and have never been told I must attend AA for life. That's my choice, because I believe alcoholism is never "cured" but arrested, and just like any other person with a terminal disease, I have to keep taking my meds in order to stay "healthy."
One of the first things I was told when I came to AA was to change my playmates, and playgrounds, so as not to vicariously experience the chaos caused by my bad habits. My drinking life was full of bad habits and bad habits don't leave me. They are simply replaced by good habits...hopefully. I don't believe it's impossible for one to stop drinking without AA. I do however, believe it's impossible for an "alcoholic" to get sober without a program such as AAs program. Think about that for a while....ok.

SoberNVa

Very nicely said,Music. I love this site a lot,and have spent countless hours reading here,but I am just TIRED of the AA bashing. Is there an ignore button I can use to block out all the crap? Im sorta struggling right now with willingness,and the last damn thing I need is hearing a lot of negative crap about the program that has enabeled me to finally get 2 years of continuous sobriety after years of going in and out. My disease would love to latch on to that **** and give me an excuse to someday drink again, so I guess Im so angry about all the AA bashing because of fear.

michaelj

I do not feel now, nor have I ever felt the need to hang around in the company of alcoholics. I don't know many recovering alcoholics socially but of those that I do know there is not a single one who accompanies alcoholics. I wonder where Berne gets his information from. Could his premise be a construct of his own making and without any empirical backing?
On the matter of hangovers I can only give my story. The hangover to me was the price I paid for the "enjoyment" of the drink on the day / night before. I certainly got no pleasure from a hangover and in fact one of the warning signs of impending alcoholism was the regularity of the hungover state and the essentail requirement of another alcoholic drink to give respite from it. There were countless times that I said "never again" but the addiction to alcohol drew me back. It was never the addiction to hangovers.
As to a desire to experience chaotic behaviour, give me a break. I have an immaculately well ordered life and always have had. The thought of a chaotic existence is anathema to me.
Enough of this man's psychobabble.
I don't do AA for reasons I have been into elsewhere but neither do I criticise an organisation which has as its sole raison d'etre the recovery of alcoholics. Now I know that in the US some people are ordered by the courts to attend AA and as far as I know that is not the case in the UK. However the vast majority of folk who attend AA do so of their own volition because they believe that they will achieve sobriety through their attendance and adherence to AA's principles.
If Berne and or anyone else wants to criticise that then they really ought to do their homework and come up with some facts to support the claims they want to make.
Michael

CarolD

I can always find info to support my nonsense!

Chy

No one can tell me I was addicted to hangovers.. that's crap. I've never been told I had to attend for life to remain sober, never. I choose to stay because I like who I am now, I like the concepts imparted in the program that are basically common sense ways of living and I like being around people who want to live the same way I do despite all the negativity, horrors and ill will out in the real world. I gain strength from the fellowship in facing those obstacles of real life not a bad way to live.

2dayzmuse

Addicted to hangovers? I was addicted to the cause.

ChampionRabbit

Okay, but...

And who told you this? Who told you that you need to 'keep taking your meds'? Who told you that you have a 'terminal disease'?

You don't meet many alcoholics/drunks at AA then?

ChampionRabbit

I must admit that I don't really agree with the 'addicted to hangovers' bit, but then since I have a drink problem, I guess I can't be objective about that.

The whole 'ex-alkies love to hang-out with alkies' thing is far more convincing though.

I'd love to hear a good argument against that claim; seems pretty undeniable to me.

FriendofBill

Interestingly enough, I just read that exact book, Rabbit, just 3 days ago.
Nowhere does it say the alcoholic is addicted to hangovers.

Why would you post an outright lie such as that?

2dayzmuse

Hmmm...love to hang out with? No. Relate to? Yes. The only time I spend with other alcoholics is during a meeting. Other than that, I don't spend my free time associating with other alcoholics. The friends I choose to spend time with aren't alcoholics. I definitely don't like the chaos and drama related to alcoholism. I must say though, some people are drama junkies. They thrive on it. You don't have to be an alcoholic to qualify for that. So...ehhhh. The above statments sound pretty generalized or out right far fetched to me.

2dayzmuse

After re-reading my post I thought wait a minute. I spend alot of free time on SR. Does that count? Does that fall under hangout or are we talking F2F? Hmmmm...this could get complicated.

Dan

Eric Berne was rejected when he wanted to become a psychoanalyst.
He then founded what is called transactional analysis. He had to be heard, regardless.


Lots. Sober ones for the most part

Don S

I haven't read the book, but this is from a description of the Alcoholic Game:

"This is Eric Berne's description, of the game of Alcoholic in*Games People Play, (edited and abridged):
[snip]

'In the initial stages of "Alcoholic," the wife may play all three supporting*Roles; at midnight the Patsy, undressing him, making him coffee*and letting him beat up on her, in the morning the Persecutor, berating*him for the evil of his ways, and in the evening the Rescuer, pleading with*him to change them. In the later stages, due sometimes to organic deterioration*the Persecutor and the Rescuer can be dispensed with, but are*tolerated if they are also willing to act as sources of supply. The alcoholic will go*to the Mission House and be Rescued if he can get a free meal there, or he*will stand for a scolding, amateur or professional, as long as he can get a*handout afterward.*Present experience indicates that the payoff of "Alcoholic" (as is characteristic*of games in general) comes from the aspect to which most*investigators pay least attention. In the analysis of this game drinking*itself is merely an accidental pleasure having added advantages, the procedure*leading up to the real culmination, which is the hangover. It is the*same in the game of Schlemiel; the mess-making, which attracts the most*attention, is merely a pleasure-giving way for White to lead to the crux,*which is obtaining forgiveness from Black.*For the Alcoholic the hangover is not as much the physical pain as the*psychological torment."

http://www.emotional-literacy.com/hea1.htm

Pick-a-name

So can my A/H ! haha

NoMoBeer

There is a huge difference between being "sober" and being "dry." I can be dry by not drinking. I believe to live a sober, happy and joyous life, I need the tools AA provides me in the Big Book. I go to meetings, because the Fellowship of AA remind me of what it was like, what happened and what it's like now. They help me apply the tools, and I don't feel alone, I am with others who know about my disease -- yes, my terminal disease. I will always be an alcoholic.

Thanks, Music -- I have been letting my meeting attendance slip a little over the past couple of weeks. Spoke with my sponsor this morning -- he said exactly the same thing you did -- 'you need to take your medicine...' I picked him up (he just had surgery 9 days ago) and we went together to the 12:15 meeting. It was great!

Ken

ChampionRabbit

I beg your pardon?

Care to take that back or are in intent on looking like a complete fool?

Peter

We alkies have the inate ability to psychonalize, intellectualize and criticize even if it is the opinions of someone written 40 yrs. ago and sometimes we do it all the way to the nearest bar.

Step 12 of AA asks me specifically to: "Practise these (spritual) principles in all my affairs......."

In other words, yes it asks me to live spiritual for the rest of my life.

AA also asks me to constantly practise the principle of GRATITUDE by trying to help other alcohlics to recover.

At no time and at none of the meetings I attended have I ever been told to "attend meetings for the rest of my life."

Enshrouded by the fog of our alcoholism we often misunderstand the things we hear and I too once confused "passing on the message" with "attending meetings for life".

When alcoholics like myself obtain the level of gratitude that I have for the "Spiritual path that AA has shown me" there is little anyone can do or say that will prevent me from frequently visiting the halls of AA, even when I am old and shaky.

I will always attend meetings not because it was decreed by AA that I do so but rather because the warmth and cameraderie that exists in a good old fashioned AA meeting will always be an inspiration for me but mostly because an AA meeting is always a primary source for "passing on the message"

Even today I see newcomers coming into meetings clutching the latest publcation and theories about alcoholism.

"Have you read the AA Big Book yet ?" I will ask.

" ....er no, not yet, but I am planning to.."

AA in it's simplicity is often clouded by our own intellectualizing and our own eagerness to listen to the opinions of others before we try to understand what AA truly represents.

Perhaps it is our lack of faith......the one thing AA will always be criticized and misunderstood for, is the fact that it asks us to accept and to believe in the power of spiritual principles.

earlybird

Yeah,...seriously,...the only really interesting thing about that is how OFF it is.

I have never been, nor have I ever heard of, being addicted to hangovers. They sucked. Im sure they still do. I have been sober 2 1/2 yrs and havent even spoken to other regular users. The AA program clearly says the OPPOSITE of that. "Stay away from wet places and wet faces"

Music,....you nailed it.
AA meetings....those are our meds. Just as a patient with any number of other diseases must take their daily meds to keep their affliction at bay. AA is not the cult most ignorant people think it is. They dont hunt you down and storm your home if you dont attend. We dont slaughter a sheep on the third Sunday of the month or anything or offer the newest members first born or sacrifice virgins. We go to a place to meet, talk, laugh, cry, and live life without the burden of booze. Those who think otherwise havent even given it a chance. Of course you are going to be frightened and have a bad experience the first time. Do you think that Tina Turner or Paul McCartney or any successful singer wasnt terrified the first time the went up on stage??? Yes,...I'd bet they were. Now if you were to ask them,...they'd say there is no place they'd rather be.

Don S

I don't think it is a tenet of AA that people are never cured. The word 'recovered' shows up in the big book a lot more than 'recovering' does.

"We, OF Alcoholics Anonymous, are more than one hundred men and women who have recovered from a seemingly hopeless state of mind and body."

Berne's point is not unreasonable from a behavioral standpoint. The 'rewards' we get from drinking can be more than just physiological. Sometimes people harm themselves intentionally for complicated reasons. If you view it as a compulsive behavior, you can see how they might be 'addicted' to all the aspects of that behavior.

I do wish people would stop using 'intellectual' as a pejorative around here. There's nothing wrong with thinking about those things that form the basis for our behavior, and that is what people are doing when they analyze, intellectualize, and criticize.
Don S