Patsyd1

"We have been dealing with alcohol in its
worst aspect. But we aren't a glum lot. If newcomers
could see no joy or fun in our existence, they wouldn't
want it. We absolutely insist on enjoying life."

Patsyd1

Welcome Don lol

BubbaBob

...it's not an honorary membership, it's a real one.

"The only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking."

Yer in dude...get over it...LOL

As to tomatos, I don't grow what I am partial to or like...my garden spot doesn't get enough sun due to trees I don't want to cut for fruiting plants like melons, tomatos, etc., I only grow leafy and root plants to completion...mainly lettuce, cabbage, carrots, radishes, broccoli, cauliflower, and garlic.

Tomatos I grow as starter plants to sell for transplanting so I grow what people will buy rather than my favorites. This year it's Red Brandywine, Celebrity, Sweet Million, Pompeii, Roma, Mountain Supreme, Early Girl, and the ultimate large tomato, Big Zac...a 6 pounder, usually grown as a novelty.

BubbaBob

3legacy

Mogqua :
Thanks for helping me realize my own false-humility in the mirrored-recognition of another fellow members.

I am very grateful those before us codified, in writing, our suggested program of recovery and path into an autonomous distinct spiritual entity. I'm also grateful we each can adapt it to ourselves individually as we see fit. Steps, Traditions, and Concepts are definitely available for personal interpretations. I'm grateful the "Word of Mouth" program was codified in the Big Book. It is so easy to twist what I hear before passing it on to others and I think we have passages in A.A. literature that speak of that as well and why they were forming a Group Conscience in seeking Unity to write the book in the first place.

These Principles are such wonderful tools. They were certainly not meant for use as weapons by our founders. For that, I thank them & my God/HP. Seems to me there is plenty of flexibility and even option for "minority opinion" well laid out in those precepts. I need not re-write them for others. Others may wish to and I hope they follow simple guidelines already laid out for doing so.

I'm not sure if NA, or other 12 Step organizations use the full meal deal of the Steps, Traditions, and Concept in their practice or not. That is of course up to them & their own individual members affairs. Hopefully, our success rate in A.A. can improve if we stick to our singleness of purpose, our particular foundation, and it's cornerstone of carrying the A.A. Message instead of my own.

Whats wrong with this story? Honesty, quite possibly. Mine, not the lady who simply laid out the directions she used to make the cake. Not those who were misinformed by me as to what the clear-cut directions were because I added and subtracted ingredients. Yet for some reason we want to blame the lady who gave us the original recipe. Why?

Not sure where this one comes from unless its a personal opinion of what A.A.'s Tradition Three actually says? My commonality in A.A. is in simply being an alcoholic, a member of A.A. Thanks for allowing me to share my opinions which are based on limited but wonderfully exciting experiences, strengths and hopes I've found in Alcoholics Anonymous.

((((((((((Mogqua & SR A-Z))))))))))
Kiss Heart of Spirit In Love & Service,
3 Legacy

Patsyd1

Two or more alcoholics gathered together for the purpose of sobriety is an AA meeting.

Bill W. and Dr. Bob...... did just that and look where WE are now.

Dan

It's a beautiful thing isn't it?
'bout time you dropped in for a visit Patsy

Patsyd1

Ohhhh thank you Dan

I am all moved into my new place, things all put away, and I am situated in my new face to face meetings....... what a gift the program of AA is. So I will be coming here Dan, because I missed you guys and this place!!

"A Grateful Heart Will Never Drink"

3legacy

Sorry if I was mistaken Patsy. I thought it was - they may call themselves a Group, not a meeting. And I think it came with another provision of course. Something about no other affiliations or something like that. Still see lots of folks unable to differentiate the difference between a meeting and a group though.

(((((((Patsy, the Pro-AA, the sometime pro AA's & even the Anti-AA's)))))))))

Kiss Hearts of Spirit In Love & Service,
3 Legacy

Don S

Hi, Cathy,

When I looked for information on sobriety, I went to AA's web site and read the 12 steps slowly and carefully. It was clear to me then that it was a religious program, and I am not religious at all. (I have learned on this site that there are many who use AA without considering it religious, but that was much later). I considered it comparable to joining a church to quit drinking --clearly not for someone of my world view or temperament. So I just moved on and looked for alternatives.

I continued looking for information about substance abuse, preferring those with a secular basis and with scientific information. My approach is to look for natural explanations for things, and I just don't share the view that sobriety is primarily a spiritual issue. I found some web sites based on behavioral approaches and began reading about them. The ones I found led me to SMART Recovery and RR.

The fellowship you describe sounds very much like the benefits one would get from a congregation. Again, not being religious I haven't felt the lack of such support in my life. I felt that sobriety was very much a personal issue, not one I chose to share with strangers--anonymously or otherwise. I do recognize that benefit, though, as I have found something much like it in forums and in the email relationships I've developed with people. I have never felt any need or desire for face-to-face discussions about sobriety.

Various people here have urged me to attend AA meetings, but at this point there would be little reason. I don't have any concern about my sobriety, and I don't think my views would be especially helpful to newcomers at such meetings.

So I don't agree with the philosophy, don't feel the desire for the personal support, and probably would make others there uncomfortable.

Don S

Cathy31

Hi Don

That's really interesting thanks for sharing.

You provide a really valuable counter-way to people who come here and aren't comfortable with AA for whatever reason. That's great. I always enjoy your posts.

Thanks for the insights!

You sound very settled and at peace and happy with your chosen way, and that's the point really.

Cathy31
x

Patsyd1

Hi 3 Legacy,

I do not believe you are mistaken 3 Legacy. Any 2 or 3 alcoholics gathered together for the purpose of sobriety.....is a meeting and if they choose to, they can form an AA group. What matters is that they are gathered together for the purpose of "sobriety" imho.

I don't know too many alkies in AA that do not know the difference between a "meeting" and an "AA group", except for probably newcomers, and it doesn't take them long if they are listening, to differentiate between the two, but thats just my experience.

Don S

Thanks, Cathy,
I should mention that when I say that I found RR, I quickly moved past that one as well. My initial impression was that hostility to other recovery groups was one of their fundamental principles. Using anger as a basis for recovery? Anyway, I didn't like the tone. I've learned more about RR since then, and many people find the AVRT technique useful. Since you can read about it by visiting their web site without 'joining', you might find that part of it interesting.

I often post links for WFS, SOS, and LifeRing even though I have only a cursory knowledge of those. WFS seems to have been founded in response to perceived deficiencies in the 12-Step approach for women, perhaps due to the changing roles of women in society from the women's liberation movement of the 60's and 70's. AA apparently just seemed very outdated, and its origin as a nearly all-male organization (plus the quaint prose style) evidently made a lot of women uncomfortable. It would be really useful to hear from someone who has used WFS and get to know more about how it works in practice.

SOS and LifeRing also developed because there were many people who wanted a secular approach. Regardless of what people in AA may say, it certainly looks like a religious organization to many. In the absence of an approach based on cognitive behavioral theory, I probably would have made more use of one of those.

One thing I like about an REBT based approach is that it is applicable to so many other things in life. In a way, it treats substance abuse as just another behavior in the whole fabric of your life, and you deal with anger, depression, anxiety, frustration--all in the same context. I think any good recovery program treats the whole of your life rather than just focusing on the substance abuse. So when a program ignores or oversimplifies the causes of the behavior, as RR does in my opinion, it is kind of self-limiting. Great for quitting, perhaps, but not as useful for staying quit.

Don S

Cathy31

Very interesting, Don

Did you ever say what you did for a living...? Are you an author perhaps?

Your posts are great, thanks for the time and effort you put into them - I especially like the Friday sobriety one.

Thanks again,
Cathy31x

Don S

I own a retail nursery. I do write garden articles....
Writing about sobriety is one of the things I did originally to attain sobriety, and now it's just a habit, I guess!
Don

TracyAgain

OFF TOPIC :

Do you have any tips for preventing Bermuda grass from invading gardens or reclaiming a garden that has been invaded?

Tracy

Dan

Don saved my lilacs last year.
He's my hero.

Cathy31

That's amazing, Don! Gardening is so therapeutic! lucky you to be surrounded by nature! Divine!

3legacy

Patsy :
Thanks for the point of clarification. It is much appreciated. I've met many who haven't been able to differentiate between the meeting and the Group. Some were newcomers who have now become Longtimers. I've also seen the Traditions twisted to the point that Tradition 2 ended with ....

..... a loving God as He may express Himself in our meeting conscience.

(((((((((Patsy)))))))) Thanks for helping to keep a focus on AA Recovery, Unity & Service on these boards.

Kiss Heart of Spirit In Love & Service

Patsyd1

Hi Legacy,

I believe that is why its so very important to bring the 12 Traditions to fore front. I am amazed at times what people "think" about AA as a whole, AA groups, AA meetings, and AA members and what they "think" and what reality is..... are worlds apart.

As a newcomer, when I would bring something up to my sponsor, she would pass on to me, what was passed to her about the 12 Traditions. Today I am sooo grateful that she did that. Yes I used to think she was nuts, that she was a pain in the ass because no matter what I thought, she would always bring me right back to the 12 Steps and the 12 Traditions. After a while of really listening to my sponsor, her explanations began to produce more questions in me. My sponsor had suggested several times that if I wanted to not only know the answers to my questions, but to have an understanding of the answers, then I ought to attend AA Tradition meetings. I called her up one night, and asked if I could catch a ride with her to the Tradition meeting. From that first AA Traditions meeting I have been in absolute awe of how this simple program works soooo beautifully.

Don S

Bumping this up for Mogqua....
Don S