Stayingsassy

I know that. I couldn't live with any peace if I believed I had no power to stay sober. I need the security of knowing someone would have to tie me down to make me drink alcohol because I will never drink again. I'd never in my right mind choose to drink alcohol again.

I went through a discussion with my friend about going through the steps. she gave me a workbook page and I couldn't get through the first question. "Name three things you are powerless over."

Well, not much. I have a lot of personal power. It's why I quit drinking: to be powerful again. It's the one thing I got back. The power of choice, of logic, of decision making. So much of that was lost in my drinking.

I am not powerless. I am a powerful woman. I put my weakness down.

Obladi

Cow, you remind me of an interaction I had with RobbieRobot some years ago; I keep forgetting it. He said, "forget want." A good succinct melding of AAs and RRs perspectives on quitting. Just Do The Thing.

Which I am doing with varying degrees of success (failure?). But I still desire the forever wish. I suppose that's wanting the "wrong" thing.

Obladi

I agree and understand that the guy was very religious. And interpreted the new machine as what you get in heaven, but then why will it amaze us and others? Maybe it can happen on earth. I'd love to get a new machine because this wretched one is quite worn.

I guess maybe I just answered myself. Perhaps we get to have the materials to make our own new machine. It's just a matter of identifying the parts and learning how to assemble them? (Oh and the old parts most likely need to get permanently trashed - or at least stored away on the top shelf of the tool shed.)

Obladi

Ok so I have been doing any number of things aside from posting what I meant to talk about this morning - the emotional/psychological spaghetti. I agree with soberlicious and Sassy that the first thing is Don't Drink. That is or can be entirely separate from the depression, anhedonia, anxiety, and all manner of ills. Sure, I've been treating those symptoms with drinking, but I know there are other ways even if I don't know what the other ways might be. And I'm scared or intimidated by those ways. One needn't be cured to stop drinking.

But it does help to have a plan to address the symptoms (if symptoms there are) once having Quit. The way that's been most useful to me is introspection combined with therapy.

Therapist and I discussed yesterday why I would drink before middlest got here and why I'm thinking about drinking this weekend. Not decided to drink but it's not off the table. Why not? What benefit would I get?

So this is why it's useful to find someone to work with that can "get" you and to develop a relationship of real trust, cuz this took some real honest talk.

Best theory at this time is that I desperately didn't want to drink while middlest was here but the beast was very convincing in his argument that this is what I do when the kids are around. So I pre-empted it and drank before she arrived. And now having survived pretty much unscathed, the beast is suggesting that getting away with drinking while middlest is here would be "fun." Not fun enjoyable, but more like pulling one over. Therapist asks, how would you be pulling one over if she isn't going to be around? (She's going to be at a weekend event.) And also, O, you tend to drink surrounding close relationship issues but as you describe it, this would likely have no bearing on your relationship with her. Oh. Hmmm. Well then, of course we know the beast is me and I'm the only person who would know, so I guess I'm trying to get one over on myself? That way I'd have the "satisfaction" of confirming my suspicion or belief that I truly am a loser. Easier to count on me failing than to trust in me succeeding and then having to face all of the nothingness that remains.

Or something like that.

FBL

First of all, I want to make it clear that I got sober without the use of any "formal" program. No AA, NA or any other alphabet soup. I mostly leaned on all of you here at SR for my support. I'm also not a very spiritual person. I don't think much about a "higher power" or other such vague concepts. I'm an optimist, but also a realist. I have problems, but I try to deal with them as soon as they appear. If I let them fester, then we got problems.

My personal bottom was a major panic attack that put me in the ER, questioning my own sanity. I literally thought I was dying that day and I was actually very close to stroking out as my BP was 200/120 or some such high number. Over the years I've heard MANY stories that are WAY worse than mine, but that doesn't matter to me. My bottom was bad enough. I used to tell myself that I was a "high functioning" alcoholic. I couldn't possibly have a problem, since I had a good job, never missed a day of work, had plenty of money, etc., etc. Those are LIES that your addiction tells you to keep you mired in it. The bottom line is that after nearly 30 years, I wanted to be sober more than I wanted to be drunk. That's what I call "surrender". My body and mind were just starting to break down, but I was probably a year or so away from irreversible damage, just because my ego thought I could handle it. I thought I was a loser that deserved the life I was living, but that was NOT me at all. The answer was right in front of me the whole time, I was just too blind to see it.

Arpeggioh

Man, so much good stuff in this thread!

I used to describe myself as a chronic relapser, because I was. Past tense. Then I had enough. I love the two "self-talk" responses mentioned above in regards to future drinking: it's "Oh, hell no!" and not "Hope / Maybe" for me now...

...and if my old wet brain ever starts drifting away from "Oh, hell no!" then I recognize the looming iceberg and make immediate course correction...

Obladi

I think that we can/should take wisdom from any of the acronymed groups. I've "done" AA, SMAR, SR, therapy, rehab... and gathered tools and insights from all of them. One of these days the truth in front of me will kick in and stick, I know it. Takes work, commitment and faith (in something if only myself).

Are you familiar with the promises? From what I've read, you are an embodiment.

Obladi

Arpeggioh,

What do you do to correct course? Seems to me that once I'm off course, the deal is already done. You know what I mean?

FBL

Oh yeah, I shamelessly steal what I need from just about every program out there. When I got first got sober, I found lots of online resources. So I read up on the various methods and kind of cobbled together my own recovery program. The only thing I didn't do was go to actual in-person meetings. However, I just recently started online meetings on FaceBook and they have added a whole new wrinkle to my recovery. I'm kinda known as the non-traditional recovery guy over there. Some of them haven't quite figured me out yet, but that's on them!

courage2

I didn't surrender to being an alcoholic, I surrendered addicted behavior & thinking. I was willing to give up everything -- although as it turned out, nothing that I had to give up was worth a dime.

There's such a thing as over-identification as an alcoholic. I completely believed drunk = me 4-ever. It was hard to extricate myself from that mental cult.

Maybe you're joking, but maybe over-identification is part of the relapse problem?

fini

Easier to count on me failing than to....

yes, O, i found it always easier to to expect to fail than to actually do whatever needed doing to NOT.

NYCDoglvr

What I know is I'm powerless over alcohol: when I pick up a drink I have no control over how much I drink or my words/actions. I'm powerless over other people, the past and future and much of what happens in the world. I do have power, however, in today: I can decide not to drink. I have power over my feelings, words and actions.

Cow

I not joking Bunny, I surrendered to addict behavior and thinking as well. For good 10-15 year I embraced it, later, I either did not feel I could fight it or did not always want to fight it. It go from total love affair to abusive relationship you too indoctrinated to leave to living with total madman killer and OMG WHY IS YOU STILL THERE?! But you are.

The sneaking and lying and scheming and thinking outsider not REALLY understand is all part of the cult.

That why I say I has to UNsurrender. How did you break free, Bunny?


O, you concerning me, cuz usual for me, if I rolling around possibility of using in my mind, as you are, it usual mean, I this close to tipping point of belief that I know I gonna give in, so just go ahead and do it.

Can we make a pact right now to both get through weekend? We will talk to you tantrum throwing beast aspect all weekend if we has to, okay? Come on girl, this our first real challenge since we team up --you can score one for the Team.

Obladi

Yes, we can sure do that as long as you will sign off on telling us when you are rolling around in possibility yourself. (God Forbid) Deal?

Obladi

fini, I know you don't mean to harm but I did feel a pinprick reading this. "What? I'm not lazy!"

Language, at least my language, can be incredibly telling huh? Revised in my mind to say "more comfortable..." Urgh, no. Maybe the precise language is "I'm more accustomed to..."

Hair-splitting aside, I do thank you for pointing it out.

Arpeggioh

I do believe in over-identification as an alcoholic; I'm also uncomfortable with the disease concept. It has, in the past, felt like I was simply doomed to drink again at some point, because I wasn't taking the proper treatment for my disease. I had it coming, I wasn't recovering correctly...that mind fark kept me drunk for a very long time.

As for correcting any wayward drift, I simply intensify the language in my head. Oh, hell no, drinking is not an option. (But what about...) OH HELL NO! Are you insane? You have got to be out of your farking mind! Gentle little reminders like that...

If I give my addiction the tiniest little bit of wiggle room, it will happily creep back in and consume me, because that's what it does, that's what it's always done. It starts with my self-talk; like Obladi said, once my resolve comes into question, and I feel off course, I'm already on my way to drunk...

Stayingsassy

This is why I have not changed my signature line. "A tree falls the way it leans.". Another good one I love is " water finds its own level. ". Not as related to sobriety but it is for me because I ditched all the friends I kept at my low water levels after sobriety...but it's mostly about finding people and things and situations that elevate me rather than trash me.

A tree falls the way it leans. Alcohol addiction is a mighty big tree. Let it start to lean and lose roots on its best side and it will overtake you. You won't win. It does. it's bigger than you. It's easier to keep the tree up than to try to keep it from falling.

Thats why "oh hell no" = sobriety and "I wish I could"= relapse.

If you haven't stopped wishing you could drink, make it stop. It's not a good time. It's a useless 4-6 your escape with devastating consequences. It deserves no longing. So look at what alcohol does to you, to the patterns of your life, to your self concept. Look at how you must spend so much mental energy doing this: drinking and quitting and relapsing over and over with zero progress. It has you trapped. You can't open your mind to life: to love, to spirituality, to peace. You are forever stuck on SR. You are forever on the wheel. Until you stop wishing and use your own key to release yourself from your own jail. Your life will end one day. don't spend it on the wheel.

Obladi

"If you haven't stopped wishing you could drink, make it stop. It's not a good time. It's a useless 4-6 your escape with devastating consequences. It deserves no longing. So look at what alcohol does to you, to the patterns of your life, to your self concept. Look at how you must spend so much mental energy doing this: drinking and quitting and relapsing over and over with zero progress. It has you trapped. You can't open your mind to life: to love, to spirituality, to peace. You are forever stuck on SR. You are forever on the wheel. Until you stop wishing and use your own key to release yourself from your own jail. Your life will end one day. don't spend it on the wheel."

Are you talkin to me?
I think you are.

Well done for keeping it real, Sass. I mean that with sincerity, love and respect. I hope you know I've become quite fond of your badass self.

I wouldn't say I wish I could drink because that's insanity. First of all, I can drink anytime I wish. I just need to maintain a state where I choose not.

I do not agree that I've made no progress. I have. Excruciatingly frustratingly slowly, but still. I've formed a pact with Cow in good faith. This is something I would not have allowed myself to do previously. I relapsed (hate that word for me) and came back pretty much right away instead of continuing on with failing because I was on that path anyway.

Being stuck on SR forever doesn't seem like a bad deal to me at all - but I'd prefer to call it sticking around to help.

Do I sound defensive? Perhaps I am a wee bit. It's not just you, it's just how I'm feeling today - feeling misunderstood to some degree.

I am here, trying, being 100% honest with thoughts that are rolling around in my head. Having the thoughts doesn't mean I'm going to do the thing, does it? Isn't that what we're supposed to learn? I am not my thoughts, but I sure do think them.

How many people drank for a decade wishing they could stop and THEN came here and managed to recover within a day or a month or a year? Would you have told them they are wasting their time because they'd been trying to stop for a decade?

Perhaps I am totally projecting my sensitivity into what you wrote and making it all about me when it's not. It's about all of us. Some of us just happen to be chronic relapsers - in public -and want to talk about it. Because perhaps bringing alllll of the garbage out of the closet might help. Seems like it couldn't hurt as long as it's not used as an excuse? For sure, keeping my drinking hidden has been my sickest secret. I'm not willing to harm myself in that way any more.

fini

Obladi, i really was talking about my own experience; not pointing anything out about you. hard to tell in cyberspace, i know. sometimes i just talk about myself when i talk about myself
not meant as instructive in any way.
lazy, you? ????
good heavens, from the things you write i think you do more in one day than i do in a week.

courage2

You might be giving up on yourself by drinking, but you’re not surrendering to addict behavior. Pretty much definitionally, your behavior doesn’t control you. Your behavior is self-willed – as they always say, no one’s making you lift the bottle to your mouth. (Though I used to fantasize about being forced to drink.) Alcohol is a substance, not a demon or lover – it’s just **** you’re destroying yourself with. In the great words of Bob Newhart, "Stop It."

It sounds like neither of you is physically addicted or you wouldn’t keep drying out. If this is true, the bonds that seem to chain you to substances are entirely psychological. Psychology’s trickier than chemical dependency, but at least you get to walk around. In other words, you’re already free in your self, for some reason you just don’t want to live in the free world.

I don’t know why people like us want to live in “mind-forg'd manacles.” I lived that way for 35 years. I’d been a year sober before I consciously thought about hope. I caught myself referring to a friend casually today. Before about a year ago, I hadn’t had someone to call a friend since 3rd grade.

https://www.soberrecovery.com/forums...ere-using.html (Words you never used when you were using)

What’s my hopeful message? When you want to quit more than you want to drink, you will quit. Every minute of the day is a quit – every minute you ask yourself, which do I want more? Drink or sobriety? Every time you say “sobriety” is a quit, and you’ll have quit for good when you make that same decision on death’s door, but you won’t know if you’ve quit for good until then. It’s a big deal but not that big a deal.

((Obladi)) let it out.