Crossing the line from hangovers to withdrawals - a permanent state?
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Crossing the line from hangovers to withdrawals - a permanent state?
I have been a relatively heavy drinker for the last 10 years or so and it has gotten progressively worse - over the last 5 years I would usually have 4 nights where I drank maybe 25 units but with occasional binge weekends where I would drink 35-40 units or even more from rising in the AM to passing out and starting again late afternoon to go again until passing out.
Recently I have had 3 or 4 weekends that were like the latter described weekend and added to that I would drink midweek meaning I may have only taken a couple of days off weekly in the last 2 months with the exception of a 7 day period where I tried to get out of this intense level of imbibing (and during which I considered permanently giving up).
It was about 5 weeks or so that I first googled withdrawal symptoms as something started to change in my hangovers after the really big sessions - profuse night sweating, insomnia, anxiety and a feeling of just being on super high alert - definitely withdrawal symptoms. I experienced these two weekends in a row and started reading about kindling, brain chemistry and how I may possibly have crossed a line where I would never really get standard hangovers again but just go straight to withdrawal every time - potentially even after only a handful of drinks.
I will say that since those two big weekend sessions I haven't gone quite as hard any one night - maybe 25-30 and what I've noticed was more the anxiety and not as much of the sweating - still withdrawal symptoms and not traditional hangovers. I obviously haven't taken enough time off to give my brain a break to prevent at least some form of withdrawals now every time I drink - I have started to alleviate the symptons with diazepam which has helped greatly but I only have limited access to this so have not abused it.
Anyway, we are coming in to the Xmas season and I am home to see my family for a couple of weeks. I have 5 days off the stuff from today until Wednesday and then will probably be out for 3 or 4 nights in that time period whilst attempting not to drink between them. There will be a period of 3 nights in a row around Xmas day that I'm concerned about.
But anyway, I am going to do "Dry January" - or should I say I am going to attempt it. In February I have a long weekend booked which I would normally expect to have involved some drinking and I wondered to myself: Let's say for a couple of nights in that weekend that I drink a bottle or so of wine and a couple of pints of beer: 15 units which is not a small amount but hardly a big binge: will I have mild hangovers or will I go straight into that anxiety / agitated / insomnia state? Please can the answers not focus on any speculation about my ability to moderate on this weekend but keep it to the question about whether such a thing exists as a "line" where you never ever get another hangover after any amount of drinking but suffer withdrawal. I am hoping that my current brain chemistry is clearly conditioned to cause withdrawals because of the last few months of boozing and the shortness of breaks between binges - but that ultimately this will repair itself and my brain will not come to "expect" alcohol to be present (and so kick in with the nasty withdrawal stuff) after a couple of relatively mild evenings drinking. Thoughts?? Have I permanently crossed a line or might I be able to experience traditional hangovers again? I know about kindling but my understanding / hope is that this applies to withdrawals from heavy binges - and not just returning to a mild level of drinking after absence.
Please no scaremongering - I'm looking for honest opinions as to whether this change of brain chemistry is permanent. I'm also conscious that everyone is different and no exact answers can be given - but I hope that the experiences of others will inform my thinking somewhat as to what to expect.
Recently I have had 3 or 4 weekends that were like the latter described weekend and added to that I would drink midweek meaning I may have only taken a couple of days off weekly in the last 2 months with the exception of a 7 day period where I tried to get out of this intense level of imbibing (and during which I considered permanently giving up).
It was about 5 weeks or so that I first googled withdrawal symptoms as something started to change in my hangovers after the really big sessions - profuse night sweating, insomnia, anxiety and a feeling of just being on super high alert - definitely withdrawal symptoms. I experienced these two weekends in a row and started reading about kindling, brain chemistry and how I may possibly have crossed a line where I would never really get standard hangovers again but just go straight to withdrawal every time - potentially even after only a handful of drinks.
I will say that since those two big weekend sessions I haven't gone quite as hard any one night - maybe 25-30 and what I've noticed was more the anxiety and not as much of the sweating - still withdrawal symptoms and not traditional hangovers. I obviously haven't taken enough time off to give my brain a break to prevent at least some form of withdrawals now every time I drink - I have started to alleviate the symptons with diazepam which has helped greatly but I only have limited access to this so have not abused it.
Anyway, we are coming in to the Xmas season and I am home to see my family for a couple of weeks. I have 5 days off the stuff from today until Wednesday and then will probably be out for 3 or 4 nights in that time period whilst attempting not to drink between them. There will be a period of 3 nights in a row around Xmas day that I'm concerned about.
But anyway, I am going to do "Dry January" - or should I say I am going to attempt it. In February I have a long weekend booked which I would normally expect to have involved some drinking and I wondered to myself: Let's say for a couple of nights in that weekend that I drink a bottle or so of wine and a couple of pints of beer: 15 units which is not a small amount but hardly a big binge: will I have mild hangovers or will I go straight into that anxiety / agitated / insomnia state? Please can the answers not focus on any speculation about my ability to moderate on this weekend but keep it to the question about whether such a thing exists as a "line" where you never ever get another hangover after any amount of drinking but suffer withdrawal. I am hoping that my current brain chemistry is clearly conditioned to cause withdrawals because of the last few months of boozing and the shortness of breaks between binges - but that ultimately this will repair itself and my brain will not come to "expect" alcohol to be present (and so kick in with the nasty withdrawal stuff) after a couple of relatively mild evenings drinking. Thoughts?? Have I permanently crossed a line or might I be able to experience traditional hangovers again? I know about kindling but my understanding / hope is that this applies to withdrawals from heavy binges - and not just returning to a mild level of drinking after absence.
Please no scaremongering - I'm looking for honest opinions as to whether this change of brain chemistry is permanent. I'm also conscious that everyone is different and no exact answers can be given - but I hope that the experiences of others will inform my thinking somewhat as to what to expect.
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Well that was seven paragraphs of reasons why I quit.
25-30 is coma-inducing. Taking a benzo will suppress your respirations and heart beat further, until it just stops. Very dangerous stuff you're doing here.
Please find a way to not drink at all. No, you can't un-cross that line. Playing the game you are playing is going to result in your death - one way or the other.
There is no non-scaremongering way (for me) to look at it.
25-30 is coma-inducing. Taking a benzo will suppress your respirations and heart beat further, until it just stops. Very dangerous stuff you're doing here.
Please find a way to not drink at all. No, you can't un-cross that line. Playing the game you are playing is going to result in your death - one way or the other.
There is no non-scaremongering way (for me) to look at it.
ours de petit cerveau
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: London, UK
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I doubt anyone, even a doctor, could answer what you're asking. I also doubt whether there's a "line" as such, more a progression towards the symptoms you're talking about.
I also wonder whether your knowledge of kindling is contributing to your anxiety, which you're interpreting as withdrawals, now that you're aware of it?
in any case, there's one sure-fire was to halt the progression, & that's not to continue drinking.
I also wonder whether your knowledge of kindling is contributing to your anxiety, which you're interpreting as withdrawals, now that you're aware of it?
in any case, there's one sure-fire was to halt the progression, & that's not to continue drinking.
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Originally Posted by biminiblue 
Well that was seven paragraphs of reasons why I quit.
25-30 is coma-inducing. Taking a benzo will suppress your respirations and heart beat further, until it just stops. Very dangerous stuff you're doing here.
Please find a way to not drink after this current week. No, you can't un-cross that line. Playing the game you are playing is going to result in your death - one way or the other.
There is no non-scaremongering way (for me) to look at it.
25-30 is coma-inducing. Taking a benzo will suppress your respirations and heart beat further, until it just stops. Very dangerous stuff you're doing here.
Please find a way to not drink after this current week. No, you can't un-cross that line. Playing the game you are playing is going to result in your death - one way or the other.
There is no non-scaremongering way (for me) to look at it.
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Join Date: Mar 2014
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Originally Posted by Briansy
I absolutely hear you and thanks so much for your response, but it doesn't really address the issue of whether my "GABA receptors" have been permanently altered or whether it is possible for them to be repaired to the point where I can still enjoy occasional social levels of drinking. I know, I know, people will say I'm in denial. I just want to know if it is actually physically possible.
Also, this is a sobriety site and no one is going to say, sure try drinking socially. It's not really something we believe is possible. Once you've crossed into the type of drinking you have been doing, the only answer is complete abstinence.
I know I did all that same bargaining you are doing, denial, attempts at moderating. I did that for quite some time, trying to keep track, only drinking four drinks on a Full Moon, yadda yadda. Anything over one drink (two for men) per day is excessive. I couldn't stick to that. How 'bout you? I mean, what's the point in one or two? WE drink for the buzz. Full stop. For sure we all tried to be normal drinkers. My experience and my "research" was conclusive.
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We cannot answer your brain pathology question as we are not doctors. Medical advice is actually prohibited here.
It's quite clear to me though that you are in denial that your drinking is harming you. And yes, once the line is crossed to withdrawals you can't go back. I say that from personal experience and many years of seeing it happen here to others.
It's quite clear to me though that you are in denial that your drinking is harming you. And yes, once the line is crossed to withdrawals you can't go back. I say that from personal experience and many years of seeing it happen here to others.
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You can make it a dry December, you know, and you can start right now. 
Then it won't matter if you can "repair your GABA receptors" and drink like a normal person again, because in my experience with myself and hundreds of former addicts like me, it's not possible. This forum is full of stories, too. There may be some small percentage of people who can stop the madness and continue to drink, but I've never met anyone like that, so it must be a very small percentage - and probably entirely confined to people who haven't gone nearly as far down the hole as I did and, it sounds like, you have too. For those of us who have crossed that line, there's no going back.
As they said in rehab, you can't turn a pickle back into a cucumber.
Then it won't matter if you can "repair your GABA receptors" and drink like a normal person again, because in my experience with myself and hundreds of former addicts like me, it's not possible. This forum is full of stories, too. There may be some small percentage of people who can stop the madness and continue to drink, but I've never met anyone like that, so it must be a very small percentage - and probably entirely confined to people who haven't gone nearly as far down the hole as I did and, it sounds like, you have too. For those of us who have crossed that line, there's no going back. As they said in rehab, you can't turn a pickle back into a cucumber.
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Interesting point about the awareness of kindling and the idea of withdrawal for non every day drinkers being a contributing factor to the anxiety. As that has been the main symptom of my hangovers post those episodes a month ago. Again, yes, I know this all has a sort of "bargaining" feel to it, but I would not say I'm in denial - I'm fully aware I have done terrible damage to my body and brain I would just describe it as desperate hope I haven't permanently messed up my brain. That would be a truly depressing thought. The other variable in this is what I experienced were mild withdrawals as opposed to moderate or severe. And I haven't hit it as hard since - wouldn't kindling mean I should really be getting worse symptoms rather than less severe symptoms?
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If you would stop moving the goalposts it would be easier for all of us.
The fact is that it takes months to recover from alcohol dependency and that doesn't turn you into a normal drinker. I quit for 18 YEARS and when I started drinking again it was like reuniting with a high-school sweetheart. In time I was right back to it and had a really hard time drinking moderately and getting to that quit point.
You're gonna do what you want. Moderated drinking (if you can do it) isn't as harmful, obviously - but let's be honest here: you are not going to stick to one or two a day, right? That's not the way you drink. Kindling will get worse after XX number of binge/abstain cycles. That's what the kindling literature discusses, and you won't get a warning post-card. It will just happen.
Kindling - NIH
The fact is that it takes months to recover from alcohol dependency and that doesn't turn you into a normal drinker. I quit for 18 YEARS and when I started drinking again it was like reuniting with a high-school sweetheart. In time I was right back to it and had a really hard time drinking moderately and getting to that quit point.
You're gonna do what you want. Moderated drinking (if you can do it) isn't as harmful, obviously - but let's be honest here: you are not going to stick to one or two a day, right? That's not the way you drink. Kindling will get worse after XX number of binge/abstain cycles. That's what the kindling literature discusses, and you won't get a warning post-card. It will just happen.
Kindling - NIH
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Originally Posted by Briansy
Interesting point about the awareness of kindling and the idea of withdrawal for non every day drinkers being a contributing factor to the anxiety. As that has been the main symptom of my hangovers post those episodes a month ago. Again, yes, I know this all has a sort of "bargaining" feel to it, but I would not say I'm in denial - I'm fully aware I have done terrible damage to my body and brain I would just describe it as desperate hope I haven't permanently messed up my brain. That would be a truly depressing thought. The other variable in this is what I experienced were mild withdrawals as opposed to moderate or severe. And I haven't hit it as hard since - wouldn't kindling mean I should really be getting worse symptoms rather than less severe symptoms?
Even if you had answers to all those questions, it still won't allow you to drink "moderately" or without consequences. I chased lots of these "why" questions for years myself too. But until I simply accepted that I cannot drink anymore nothing got better.
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Sounds like your addicted brain is trying reeeeeeeally hard to find ways to justify and rationalize your continuing to drink despite overwhelming evidence that it's a terrible idea.
Let me ask you, if you were having these awful symptoms as a result of being allergic to peanuts and were worried about peanuts doing damage to your body and brain, you wouldn't be desperately looking for ways to justify continuing to eat peanuts, would you? You'd just stop eating them.
To me, just an illustration of the incredible warping effect alcohol addiction can have on one's rational thinking. I went through the same thing too, until I was so miserable that the desire to remain sober finally outweighed the compulsion to keep drinking.
Let me ask you, if you were having these awful symptoms as a result of being allergic to peanuts and were worried about peanuts doing damage to your body and brain, you wouldn't be desperately looking for ways to justify continuing to eat peanuts, would you? You'd just stop eating them.
To me, just an illustration of the incredible warping effect alcohol addiction can have on one's rational thinking. I went through the same thing too, until I was so miserable that the desire to remain sober finally outweighed the compulsion to keep drinking.
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So a reasonable conclusion is that I'll probably never experience a typical "hangover" again, just varying degrees of withdrawal? And that's the point that most people realise they have to stop as hangovers can be dealt with but withdrawals and anxiety are too crippling mentally for it to be worth it?
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Originally Posted by Briansy
So a reasonable conclusion is that I'll probably never experience a typical "hangover" again, just varying degrees of withdrawal? And that's the point that most people realise they have to stop as hangovers can be dealt with but withdrawals and anxiety are too crippling mentally for it to be worth it?
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I don't know about a reasonable conclusion, but my experience was after a longish drinking career as it were , the post session anxiety became a mainstay, and to mentally crippling levels.
It wasn't until after I quit , for good, that I truly saw how ridiculous it was to speculate and bargain my way to the next drink , when deciding enough was enough means I never have to speculate again .
It wasn't until after I quit , for good, that I truly saw how ridiculous it was to speculate and bargain my way to the next drink , when deciding enough was enough means I never have to speculate again .
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Well, I will monitor the situation and feed back over Xmas. Will be curious to see how I feel after next Thursday night - dinner with cousins, not a "session", more like 15 units. Will the anxiety be right there again after 5 days of abstinence and the nerve ends have quietened down again? I'm assuming, as you say, that the anxiety is becoming / has become a main stay. Next experiment is isolated evenings of 15 odd units rather than back to back binges after a longer break. More bargaining and speculating. I can imagine the head shaking happening as I type this - and I have no grounds to think it's unreasonable. Sigh...
Part of the issue is still being single at 38 and needing to get out on the dating scene and end up with a "normal" girl who drinks a little bit but not massively and so won't care one way or the other when I eventually quit. Personality wise, I have rarely connected well with non-drinkers - like people who have never really touched the stuff, even in college. Unless of course I start dating other recovering alcoholics? How does that end up working out? Probably a bad idea...
Part of the issue is still being single at 38 and needing to get out on the dating scene and end up with a "normal" girl who drinks a little bit but not massively and so won't care one way or the other when I eventually quit. Personality wise, I have rarely connected well with non-drinkers - like people who have never really touched the stuff, even in college. Unless of course I start dating other recovering alcoholics? How does that end up working out? Probably a bad idea...
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Originally Posted by Briansy
Next experiment is isolated evenings of 15 odd units rather than back to back binges after a longer break.
More bargaining and speculating.
More bargaining and speculating.
You are quite literally experimenting with your own life you know. And that's not a "horror story". I hope you can accept your problem before you don't have a choice anymore.
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Or you could just up and quit for good , like this very instant Learning how that is more than speculation came after I heard of and looked into AVRT( great threads here on SR in the Secular Connections forum on these ideas).
You would probably be surprised , as I was, how small alcohol 'becomes' after you decide to swear off. 'Not drinking' is rather large and time occupying , at first, as would /could be reasonably expected, but that too depends on how large you make it , you can 'make it' as smalll as you wish, once you decide to take back totally control over alcohol consumption, e.g. Quit.
Your choice , 'Nothing Sucks Forever' unless you decide to let it , Rootin for ya
Learning how that is more than speculation came after I heard of and looked into AVRT( great threads here on SR in the Secular Connections forum on these ideas).You would probably be surprised , as I was, how small alcohol 'becomes' after you decide to swear off. 'Not drinking' is rather large and time occupying , at first, as would /could be reasonably expected, but that too depends on how large you make it , you can 'make it' as smalll as you wish, once you decide to take back totally control over alcohol consumption, e.g. Quit.
Your choice , 'Nothing Sucks Forever' unless you decide to let it , Rootin for ya
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All I can do is share my experience with hangovers versus withdrawals.
First of all, a hangover is technically withdrawals, just minor in it's intensity and duration. Near the end of my drinking I no longer had hangovers, I woke up (came to) in withdrawals. Which led me to drinking earlier and earlier until I needed a drink to start the day just to function.
As far as crossing any line or any medical stuff I can't help you with that. I can only say that in my situation I went to my doctor and totally fessed up about how bad my drinking was and that I wanted to quit. He was the catalyst to get the ball rolling because I tried quitting on my own more times than I can count, and towards the end I couldn't even make it till lunchtime. It was hell really...I reached the point where I couldn't live with alcohol yet I couldn't live without it.
First of all, a hangover is technically withdrawals, just minor in it's intensity and duration. Near the end of my drinking I no longer had hangovers, I woke up (came to) in withdrawals. Which led me to drinking earlier and earlier until I needed a drink to start the day just to function.
As far as crossing any line or any medical stuff I can't help you with that. I can only say that in my situation I went to my doctor and totally fessed up about how bad my drinking was and that I wanted to quit. He was the catalyst to get the ball rolling because I tried quitting on my own more times than I can count, and towards the end I couldn't even make it till lunchtime. It was hell really...I reached the point where I couldn't live with alcohol yet I couldn't live without it.
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i honestly dont think ive read more insanity here.
And that's the point that most people realise they have to stop as hangovers can be dealt with but withdrawals and anxiety are too crippling mentally for it to be worth it?
absolutely not. people realize alcohol is causing serious problem in their lives. MANY stop before they get to the point of withdrawls or hangovers. they stop before there are serious mental and emotional complications.
as for me, i realized if i didnt stop, i was going to kill myself.
I've been benefited from a dictionary definition I found that reads: "rationalization is giving a socially acceptable reason for socially unacceptable behavior, and socially unacceptable behavior is a form of insanity."
And that's the point that most people realise they have to stop as hangovers can be dealt with but withdrawals and anxiety are too crippling mentally for it to be worth it?
absolutely not. people realize alcohol is causing serious problem in their lives. MANY stop before they get to the point of withdrawls or hangovers. they stop before there are serious mental and emotional complications.
as for me, i realized if i didnt stop, i was going to kill myself.
I've been benefited from a dictionary definition I found that reads: "rationalization is giving a socially acceptable reason for socially unacceptable behavior, and socially unacceptable behavior is a form of insanity."
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Originally Posted by tomsteve
i honestly dont think ive read more insanity here.
And that's the point that most people realise they have to stop as hangovers can be dealt with but withdrawals and anxiety are too crippling mentally for it to be worth it?
absolutely not. people realize alcohol is causing serious problem in their lives. MANY stop before they get to the point of withdrawls or hangovers. they stop before there are serious mental and emotional complications.
as for me, i realized if i didnt stop, i was going to kill myself.
I've been benefited from a dictionary definition I found that reads: "rationalization is giving a socially acceptable reason for socially unacceptable behavior, and socially unacceptable behavior is a form of insanity."
And that's the point that most people realise they have to stop as hangovers can be dealt with but withdrawals and anxiety are too crippling mentally for it to be worth it?
absolutely not. people realize alcohol is causing serious problem in their lives. MANY stop before they get to the point of withdrawls or hangovers. they stop before there are serious mental and emotional complications.
as for me, i realized if i didnt stop, i was going to kill myself.
I've been benefited from a dictionary definition I found that reads: "rationalization is giving a socially acceptable reason for socially unacceptable behavior, and socially unacceptable behavior is a form of insanity."
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