Crossing the line from hangovers to withdrawals - a permanent state?
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Originally Posted by dwtbd 
After separating from my AV , any regret I've felt around drinking has come prior to not drinking. I can honestly say that since I quit , I have yet to regret not drinking the day/night before.
On more than one occasion I know I felt , from the AV, the feeling that I would regret going to a dinner/party and not drinking, turned out those were false impression, if not out right lies of a known Liar, my AV is an idiot.
On more than one occasion I know I felt , from the AV, the feeling that I would regret going to a dinner/party and not drinking, turned out those were false impression, if not out right lies of a known Liar, my AV is an idiot.
quat
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: terra (mostly)firma
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I recommend reading the book Rational Recovery : The New Cure For Substance Addiction by J. Trimpey to learn about AVRT( addictive voice recognition techinque). And checking the threads on these ideas here on SR in the Secular Connections forum, the top stickie on the forum page is a great place to start.
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Large, SIGH.....this thread is exhausting.
And I don't mean any personal offense by that Brian. I hope you understand. This is an excellent summary of my thinking over many years as I tried to intellectualize, control, detach from, and manipulate the ever more obvious fact that I'm an alcoholic, or addict, or alcohol dependent....or whatever one wishes to call it. I'm smart. I think I believed that if I could understand my addiction I could control it. And I spent a lot of years trying to do that....all the while my addiction (my beast as dwtdb is introducing you to) was tightening its grip on me. Bottom line: The intellectual lost, the beast won. As Tomsteve said, he had to quit, or die. Me too. So theorize that, Frick. I had to accept that there is no logic to addiction. No predictable time line or outcome. No logical "if this, than that". It simply is. You've read everything you need to to believe this. But you're not ready. Or you don't appear to be. The insanity in this post is simply active alcoholism. And when I say insanity its not meant as a slight. And when a person is in the grips of, and completely controlled by, (ie alcohol's be-otch) their addiction it's impossible to see just how mal-adaptive the thinking in this post is. I hope someday you'll be able to step back, sober minded, and see what we are all desperately trying to illuminate for you. But only you can do that.
The only thing that keeps bouncing around in my mind is this: If you have a friend, a same sex friend, whom you respect, whom you deem honest and intelligent, and is also a normal drinker (in other words that person orders 1 beer and may or may not finish it)....maybe have that person read this. I dunno, say Briansy is a friend of yours that you're concerned about (not really a lie) and ask that person to read this. To comment on the mental gymnastics. Maybe then you could listen because I'm quite sure this entire discussion would seem unbelievable. Then maybe you could step back and see what you are going through to continue to drink, in light of all the facts.
That's all I got. I hope things work out for you. I really do.
And I don't mean any personal offense by that Brian. I hope you understand. This is an excellent summary of my thinking over many years as I tried to intellectualize, control, detach from, and manipulate the ever more obvious fact that I'm an alcoholic, or addict, or alcohol dependent....or whatever one wishes to call it. I'm smart. I think I believed that if I could understand my addiction I could control it. And I spent a lot of years trying to do that....all the while my addiction (my beast as dwtdb is introducing you to) was tightening its grip on me. Bottom line: The intellectual lost, the beast won. As Tomsteve said, he had to quit, or die. Me too. So theorize that, Frick. I had to accept that there is no logic to addiction. No predictable time line or outcome. No logical "if this, than that". It simply is. You've read everything you need to to believe this. But you're not ready. Or you don't appear to be. The insanity in this post is simply active alcoholism. And when I say insanity its not meant as a slight. And when a person is in the grips of, and completely controlled by, (ie alcohol's be-otch) their addiction it's impossible to see just how mal-adaptive the thinking in this post is. I hope someday you'll be able to step back, sober minded, and see what we are all desperately trying to illuminate for you. But only you can do that.
The only thing that keeps bouncing around in my mind is this: If you have a friend, a same sex friend, whom you respect, whom you deem honest and intelligent, and is also a normal drinker (in other words that person orders 1 beer and may or may not finish it)....maybe have that person read this. I dunno, say Briansy is a friend of yours that you're concerned about (not really a lie) and ask that person to read this. To comment on the mental gymnastics. Maybe then you could listen because I'm quite sure this entire discussion would seem unbelievable. Then maybe you could step back and see what you are going through to continue to drink, in light of all the facts.
That's all I got. I hope things work out for you. I really do.
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Originally Posted by Frickaflip233
Large, SIGH.....this thread is exhausting.
And I don't mean any personal offense by that Brian. I hope you understand. This is an excellent summary of my thinking over many years as I tried to intellectualize, control, detach from, and manipulate the ever more obvious fact that I'm an alcoholic, or addict, or alcohol dependent....or whatever one wishes to call it. I'm smart. I think I believed that if I could understand my addiction I could control it. And I spent a lot of years trying to do that....all the while my addiction (my beast as dwtdb is introducing you to) was tightening its grip on me. Bottom line: The intellectual lost, the beast won. As Tomsteve said, he had to quit, or die. Me too. So theorize that, Frick. I had to accept that there is no logic to addiction. No predictable time line or outcome. No logical "if this, than that". It simply is. You've read everything you need to to believe this. But you're not ready. Or you don't appear to be. The insanity in this post is simply active alcoholism. And when I say insanity its not meant as a slight. And when a person is in the grips of, and completely controlled by, (ie alcohol's be-otch) their addiction it's impossible to see just how mal-adaptive the thinking in this post is. I hope someday you'll be able to step back, sober minded, and see what we are all desperately trying to illuminate for you. But only you can do that.
The only thing that keeps bouncing around in my mind is this: If you have a friend, a same sex friend, whom you respect, whom you deem honest and intelligent, and is also a normal drinker (in other words that person orders 1 beer and may or may not finish it)....maybe have that person read this. I dunno, say Briansy is a friend of yours that you're concerned about (not really a lie) and ask that person to read this. To comment on the mental gymnastics. Maybe then you could listen because I'm quite sure this entire discussion would seem unbelievable. Then maybe you could step back and see what you are going through to continue to drink, in light of all the facts.
That's all I got. I hope things work out for you. I really do.
And I don't mean any personal offense by that Brian. I hope you understand. This is an excellent summary of my thinking over many years as I tried to intellectualize, control, detach from, and manipulate the ever more obvious fact that I'm an alcoholic, or addict, or alcohol dependent....or whatever one wishes to call it. I'm smart. I think I believed that if I could understand my addiction I could control it. And I spent a lot of years trying to do that....all the while my addiction (my beast as dwtdb is introducing you to) was tightening its grip on me. Bottom line: The intellectual lost, the beast won. As Tomsteve said, he had to quit, or die. Me too. So theorize that, Frick. I had to accept that there is no logic to addiction. No predictable time line or outcome. No logical "if this, than that". It simply is. You've read everything you need to to believe this. But you're not ready. Or you don't appear to be. The insanity in this post is simply active alcoholism. And when I say insanity its not meant as a slight. And when a person is in the grips of, and completely controlled by, (ie alcohol's be-otch) their addiction it's impossible to see just how mal-adaptive the thinking in this post is. I hope someday you'll be able to step back, sober minded, and see what we are all desperately trying to illuminate for you. But only you can do that.
The only thing that keeps bouncing around in my mind is this: If you have a friend, a same sex friend, whom you respect, whom you deem honest and intelligent, and is also a normal drinker (in other words that person orders 1 beer and may or may not finish it)....maybe have that person read this. I dunno, say Briansy is a friend of yours that you're concerned about (not really a lie) and ask that person to read this. To comment on the mental gymnastics. Maybe then you could listen because I'm quite sure this entire discussion would seem unbelievable. Then maybe you could step back and see what you are going through to continue to drink, in light of all the facts.
That's all I got. I hope things work out for you. I really do.
AVRT sounds promising. Clearly, for some it was a silver bullet. Need to investigate it. Imagine it is an easier method to employ after that inital pang of intense anxiety subsides - but maybe that is missing the point!!
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Join Date: Oct 2017
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Originally Posted by Frickaflip233
Large, SIGH.....this thread is exhausting.
And I don't mean any personal offense by that Brian. I hope you understand. This is an excellent summary of my thinking over many years as I tried to intellectualize, control, detach from, and manipulate the ever more obvious fact that I'm an alcoholic, or addict, or alcohol dependent....or whatever one wishes to call it. I'm smart. I think I believed that if I could understand my addiction I could control it. And I spent a lot of years trying to do that....all the while my addiction (my beast as dwtdb is introducing you to) was tightening its grip on me. Bottom line: The intellectual lost, the beast won. As Tomsteve said, he had to quit, or die. Me too. So theorize that, Frick. I had to accept that there is no logic to addiction. No predictable time line or outcome. No logical "if this, than that". It simply is. You've read everything you need to to believe this. But you're not ready. Or you don't appear to be. The insanity in this post is simply active alcoholism. And when I say insanity its not meant as a slight. And when a person is in the grips of, and completely controlled by, (ie alcohol's be-otch) their addiction it's impossible to see just how mal-adaptive the thinking in this post is. I hope someday you'll be able to step back, sober minded, and see what we are all desperately trying to illuminate for you. But only you can do that.
The only thing that keeps bouncing around in my mind is this: If you have a friend, a same sex friend, whom you respect, whom you deem honest and intelligent, and is also a normal drinker (in other words that person orders 1 beer and may or may not finish it)....maybe have that person read this. I dunno, say Briansy is a friend of yours that you're concerned about (not really a lie) and ask that person to read this. To comment on the mental gymnastics. Maybe then you could listen because I'm quite sure this entire discussion would seem unbelievable. Then maybe you could step back and see what you are going through to continue to drink, in light of all the facts.
That's all I got. I hope things work out for you. I really do.
And I don't mean any personal offense by that Brian. I hope you understand. This is an excellent summary of my thinking over many years as I tried to intellectualize, control, detach from, and manipulate the ever more obvious fact that I'm an alcoholic, or addict, or alcohol dependent....or whatever one wishes to call it. I'm smart. I think I believed that if I could understand my addiction I could control it. And I spent a lot of years trying to do that....all the while my addiction (my beast as dwtdb is introducing you to) was tightening its grip on me. Bottom line: The intellectual lost, the beast won. As Tomsteve said, he had to quit, or die. Me too. So theorize that, Frick. I had to accept that there is no logic to addiction. No predictable time line or outcome. No logical "if this, than that". It simply is. You've read everything you need to to believe this. But you're not ready. Or you don't appear to be. The insanity in this post is simply active alcoholism. And when I say insanity its not meant as a slight. And when a person is in the grips of, and completely controlled by, (ie alcohol's be-otch) their addiction it's impossible to see just how mal-adaptive the thinking in this post is. I hope someday you'll be able to step back, sober minded, and see what we are all desperately trying to illuminate for you. But only you can do that.
The only thing that keeps bouncing around in my mind is this: If you have a friend, a same sex friend, whom you respect, whom you deem honest and intelligent, and is also a normal drinker (in other words that person orders 1 beer and may or may not finish it)....maybe have that person read this. I dunno, say Briansy is a friend of yours that you're concerned about (not really a lie) and ask that person to read this. To comment on the mental gymnastics. Maybe then you could listen because I'm quite sure this entire discussion would seem unbelievable. Then maybe you could step back and see what you are going through to continue to drink, in light of all the facts.
That's all I got. I hope things work out for you. I really do.
quat
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: terra (mostly)firma
Posts: 4,823
"Whether or not I have the ability to act on that knowledge and implement a plan to not drink, is another matter. I've tried before and failed, "
100% , pure, unadulterated , AV , in case you wondering what IT looks like
100% , pure, unadulterated , AV , in case you wondering what IT looks like
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Originally Posted by Briansy
Whether or not I have the ability to act on that knowledge and implement a plan to not drink, is another matter. I've tried before and failed, believe me!
We can make it easier on ourselves in many ways, and one way that works for many people it to break it into more manageable pieces - "I'm not going to commit absolutely to never again, I'm just going to commit to not drinking for 3 months as a trial". Sometimes, when things are getting dicey, "I'm just going to commit to not drinking today". Sneak up on forever, if you find that forever feels too scary. There are hundreds of tools people use, too, techniques from Smart or RR or AA, meetings, forums like this one, chat rooms, thought-stopping techniques, that can make it easier. But it does come down to us - deep down, do we really want to stop drinking, or not? A lot of people linger in that zone for a long time, I sure did, and that's where we can rack up some significant negative consequences.
No Dogma Please
Join Date: Jul 2017
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Start by not drinking for a minute, then an hour, then a day.
From there, not drinking over Christmas is a good idea.
I would then reevaluate how you feel. You may want to continue for longer. At some point you may feel that you don't really want to drink again. Ever.
Or not.
When I entered rehab I had every intention to drink after detox. Then it was going to be 6 weeks. Then 90 days. By the time I left, it was never, and I just took drinking off the table.
From there, not drinking over Christmas is a good idea.
I would then reevaluate how you feel. You may want to continue for longer. At some point you may feel that you don't really want to drink again. Ever.
Or not.
When I entered rehab I had every intention to drink after detox. Then it was going to be 6 weeks. Then 90 days. By the time I left, it was never, and I just took drinking off the table.
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Originally Posted by MindfulMan
When I entered rehab I had every intention to drink after detox. Then it was going to be 6 weeks. Then 90 days. By the time I left, it was never, and I just took drinking off the table.
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Beautiful stuff. Gonna try and forego the Xmas boozing and when the pangs come I will see how AVRT works in action! First I need to get hold of a book - or perhaps mere knowledge of the beast when he rears his head is enough? A big incentive is establishing a nice sleeping pattern and chilling the feck out and not being wired all the time...
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Me too. When I realised (after researching the process of addiction) that I’d become addicted, I struggled with that fact for years....surely I can stop for a while and then start again, but this time, moderately, as I used to. But it seems that once those reptilian addicted neuronal pathways are laid.....although they become grassed over with misuse, and new sober ones are laid as a diversion - if alcohol is added again, the reptilian grassed over pathways fore up again and incredibly quickly, will lead me to drink at the old amounts, not moderate, and ad infinitum.
Stood on the otherside, a happy and free sober person, it’s so much more peaceful and comforting, to never drink again. So very many positives, clarity of mind, self-esteem, courage, health, they all come flooding back. Take that leap of faith, I feel sure you won’t regret it, based on my experience.
Stood on the otherside, a happy and free sober person, it’s so much more peaceful and comforting, to never drink again. So very many positives, clarity of mind, self-esteem, courage, health, they all come flooding back. Take that leap of faith, I feel sure you won’t regret it, based on my experience.
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Join Date: Jul 2017
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Originally Posted by JeffreyAK
I'm believe we all have the ability to stop drinking, though we may all have different successful approaches to the problem. In the end, it doesn't matter how we get and stay sober, we just have to get and stay sober, and we all can do it. Imagine stopping forever, starting 30 seconds ago - your last drink was your last, never again. Does that make you feel anxious, the world will come to an end? That is what I call the reptile, your addict self, not *you*, and that feeling of dread does go away in time.
We can make it easier on ourselves in many ways, and one way that works for many people it to break it into more manageable pieces - "I'm not going to commit absolutely to never again, I'm just going to commit to not drinking for 3 months as a trial". Sometimes, when things are getting dicey, "I'm just going to commit to not drinking today". Sneak up on forever, if you find that forever feels too scary. There are hundreds of tools people use, too, techniques from Smart or RR or AA, meetings, forums like this one, chat rooms, thought-stopping techniques, that can make it easier. But it does come down to us - deep down, do we really want to stop drinking, or not? A lot of people linger in that zone for a long time, I sure did, and that's where we can rack up some significant negative consequences.
We can make it easier on ourselves in many ways, and one way that works for many people it to break it into more manageable pieces - "I'm not going to commit absolutely to never again, I'm just going to commit to not drinking for 3 months as a trial". Sometimes, when things are getting dicey, "I'm just going to commit to not drinking today". Sneak up on forever, if you find that forever feels too scary. There are hundreds of tools people use, too, techniques from Smart or RR or AA, meetings, forums like this one, chat rooms, thought-stopping techniques, that can make it easier. But it does come down to us - deep down, do we really want to stop drinking, or not? A lot of people linger in that zone for a long time, I sure did, and that's where we can rack up some significant negative consequences.
We are just trying to protect you. I'm so glad you're feeling some motivation to move forward. This is a tough time to get sober but there are some early gifts like blissful sleep, enjoying food again and being present for the holidays.
About your comment regarding dating....I'm sure it's different than dating and drinking, but trust me that many women want a sober man or one who rarely drinks. It's just matter of going about finding one a bit differently.
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Originally Posted by Tatsy
Me too. When I realised (after researching the process of addiction) that I’d become addicted, I struggled with that fact for years....surely I can stop for a while and then start again, but this time, moderately, as I used to. But it seems that once those reptilian addicted neuronal pathways are laid.....although they become grassed over with misuse, and new sober ones are laid as a diversion - if alcohol is added again, the reptilian grassed over pathways fore up again and incredibly quickly, will lead me to drink at the old amounts, not moderate, and ad infinitum.
Stood on the otherside, a happy and free sober person, it’s so much more peaceful and comforting, to never drink again. So very many positives, clarity of mind, self-esteem, courage, health, they all come flooding back. Take that leap of faith, I feel sure you won’t regret it, based on my experience.
Stood on the otherside, a happy and free sober person, it’s so much more peaceful and comforting, to never drink again. So very many positives, clarity of mind, self-esteem, courage, health, they all come flooding back. Take that leap of faith, I feel sure you won’t regret it, based on my experience.
Just did the crash course. I like it alot.
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You can look up kindling. Alcoholism is something that gets worse and worse over time and never gets better. Once alcoholism is programmed in the mind, it's there for life. Thinking that taking time off to "reset" is one of the oldest lines in the AV book.
You can quit for a day, a week, a year, a decade,.. it doesn't matter. The alcoholism will pick right back up where it started and likely be even worse.
Over time I myself went from just slightly annoying hangovers in the morning, to really bad ones, to being basically bedridden for days, to having severe panic attacks and absolute hell from just a single night of drinking.
You can quit for a day, a week, a year, a decade,.. it doesn't matter. The alcoholism will pick right back up where it started and likely be even worse.
Over time I myself went from just slightly annoying hangovers in the morning, to really bad ones, to being basically bedridden for days, to having severe panic attacks and absolute hell from just a single night of drinking.
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Originally Posted by Forward12
You can quit for a day, a week, a year, a decade,.. it doesn't matter. The alcoholism will pick right back up where it started and likely be even worse..
Originally Posted by Forward12
Over time I myself went from just slightly annoying hangovers in the morning, to really bad ones, to being basically bedridden for days, to having severe panic attacks and absolute hell from just a single night of drinking.
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Originally Posted by Briansy
Well, Tom, I don't have all the answers - I'm just trying to make sense of it all and hear what others have experienced. I suppose, for me, this withdrawal stuff makes it much much harder for me to continue with the destructive behaviour. Because the fun part now comes with an extra extra ****** counterpoint which is withdrawal instead of what was there before which was dehydration, lack of energy and a bit of shame. That would dissolve in a day - the anxiety that comes with withdrawal appears to linger for a week or at least until you stop it by drinking more. And that's no way to live. What I was trying to figure out is if that was a direct relation to what I've been doing lately (really binging hard and more than previously) and remediable (because even for me that was OTT) or if the intnense anxiety was now the "status quo" - I suspect it is probably the latter, but I don't like to reach absolute conclusions on anything until I've done my version of due diligence. Or what you would probably call denial and rationalisation! PS - is it really necessary to deliver your message in such harsh / aggressive terms? A forum for people with addiction problems and you cite my post as the most insane thing you have ever read? Seems a little OTT and unkind from where I'm standing.
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Originally Posted by dwtbd
"Whether or not I have the ability to act on that knowledge and implement a plan to not drink, is another matter. I've tried before and failed, "
100% , pure, unadulterated , AV , in case you wondering what IT looks like
100% , pure, unadulterated , AV , in case you wondering what IT looks like
My addiction adores the "78% of people relapse after quitting drinking" statistic, it meant I could keep drinking until the day I died because it was "hopeless and also not my fault."
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Originally Posted by Ihadmyfill
I believe once that invisible line is crossed.....there is no going back. I tried to get back to just having a "hangover" but all I got was white knuckling withdrawal. Kindling is real......I perfected this phenomena!!
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