Spiritual Malady vs. Depression
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Spiritual Malady vs. Depression
Following up from a recent post by GottaLife and one by DayTrader.
How do you all tell the difference between our spiritual malady (untreated alcoholism) and psychological depression?
I heard a speaker recently explain that the Doctor's Opinion shows that what we have is something psychiatrists/psychologists can't fix. We don't have a "Valium deficiency". We have a spiritual malady that centers in the mind and includes a physical allergy. Fascinating stuff.
How do you all tell the difference between our spiritual malady (untreated alcoholism) and psychological depression?
I heard a speaker recently explain that the Doctor's Opinion shows that what we have is something psychiatrists/psychologists can't fix. We don't have a "Valium deficiency". We have a spiritual malady that centers in the mind and includes a physical allergy. Fascinating stuff.
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Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 2,775
Originally Posted by Pathwaytofree 
Following up from a recent post by GottaLife and one by DayTrader.
How do you all tell the difference between our spiritual malady (untreated alcoholism) and psychological depression?
I heard a speaker recently explain that the Doctor's Opinion shows that what we have is something psychiatrists/psychologists can't fix. We don't have a "Valium deficiency". We have a spiritual malady that centers in the mind and includes a physical allergy. Fascinating stuff.
How do you all tell the difference between our spiritual malady (untreated alcoholism) and psychological depression?
I heard a speaker recently explain that the Doctor's Opinion shows that what we have is something psychiatrists/psychologists can't fix. We don't have a "Valium deficiency". We have a spiritual malady that centers in the mind and includes a physical allergy. Fascinating stuff.
But how to tell the difference? I can't. If I doctor say an individual suffers from depression and that person takes medication so be it.
Personally, I feel medication to relieve anxiety, depression, ect is overprescribed in the States but I don't make judgements in an AA meeting. If a doctor says there is a reason for the medication than that's the reason for taking the prescription. On the other hand if a member lies that's on them.
12 Step Recovered Alcoholic
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 6,613
You pose some good questions PTF.
The bedevilments on page 52 provide a fair description of the spiritual malady as I would call it.
" We were having trouble with personal relationships, we couldn't control our emotional natures, we were a prey to misery and depression, we couldn't make a living, we had a feeling of uselessness, we were full of fear, we were unhappy, we couldn't seem to be of real help to other people"
You could add one of Bill's comments from his story " I was not too well at the time, and was plagued by waves of self-pity and resentment."
From a spiritual stand point I can see the sense in these passages as applied to me. It took complete honesty to reach that conclusion, and a certain amount of humiliation at the hands of John Barleycorn.
My practice up to that point had always been to seek some kind of credible excuse over which I had no control, and which I personally had not created nor could do anything about. I created the idea of a temporal lobe condition which would explain my erratic behaviour. The doctor's were wise to my strategy, but in essence I had been looking for a way to stay sober in comfort, without direct responsibility for anything, or alternatively a way to stay drinking without the consequences. What was going on with me was dishonesty, self deception, an inability to see the truth about myself, and a reluctance to live sober because it had always been such a miserable experience. Alcohol, a depressant, had been my solution, but no longer worked.
My ego also didn't like the idea that I might be self pitying, dishonest, lazy, fearful and resentful. Such unpleasant words, my ego held a much higher opinion than that and just didn't want to go there.
The big book talks about how alcoholics are seldom honest with their doctors. That applied to me, but fortunately my doctors had other sources of information from which they determined the truth. And that was that I was greedy self loving, selfish, fearful self pitying, dishonest alcholic looking for any easy way out. Fortunately there were no pills available that would treat those symptoms. The only thing that would was a spiritual experience, a complete change of personality sufficient to bring about recovery from alcoholism.
To switch to a medical point of view the same symptoms described slightly differently, and leaving out any unrequested information, can produce words like depression, lethargy, anxiety, panic, anger. The scientific diagnosis would be these things are caused by some chemical imbalance, trauma, or something like that, and we do have pills for that.
I have known a few non alcoholic people afflicted with depression. They are up front with their doctors and friends, they dont seem to have all that justification and drama in the background. It is a fairly staright forward thing to treat, usually with some temporary medication and then therapy, and they recover after a while. They pretty much followed doctor's orders like they would for any other illness.
I was once diagnosed with depression. The pills they gave me had no effect. On the other hand, alcohol fixed it immediately, if only temporarily.
It is difficult for an outsider to tell the difference. The symptoms are so similar. Many alcoholics are misdiagnosed simply because science has no room for spiritual, and the science guys have the street cred. They would be thought silly if they put a spiritual label on a condition.
I believe it all comes down to honesty, and possibly desire. Today I am completely honest with my doctor. And I want the real deal with AA, the fourth dimension of existence as they say. Not everyone wants that, or perhaps it is truer to say that not everyone is prepared to do what it takes to get that.
Had my doctors been less well informed, I might well have aimed for a second rate deal myself, an extra but false diagnosis that could help me evade responsibility and discomfort that goes with recovery, a sort of palliative care or harm minimisation approach with which I could live.
That might sound extreme, but in my mental state, 21 years old and locked up with 60 yr plus korsakovs patients, I was perfectly at home there, and didnt' want to leave when they discharged me. I could still be there, never having learnt about life in the real world, never having the experiences sobriety has given me.
Your get the idea. It comes down to self honesty. I could easily deceive the doctor, but I would pay the price. I really have to look at my motives. Back in the hospital, I had absolutely no idea how high the price of dishonesty in this area really is. How could I? I didn't know what I was missing.
The bedevilments on page 52 provide a fair description of the spiritual malady as I would call it.
" We were having trouble with personal relationships, we couldn't control our emotional natures, we were a prey to misery and depression, we couldn't make a living, we had a feeling of uselessness, we were full of fear, we were unhappy, we couldn't seem to be of real help to other people"
You could add one of Bill's comments from his story " I was not too well at the time, and was plagued by waves of self-pity and resentment."
From a spiritual stand point I can see the sense in these passages as applied to me. It took complete honesty to reach that conclusion, and a certain amount of humiliation at the hands of John Barleycorn.
My practice up to that point had always been to seek some kind of credible excuse over which I had no control, and which I personally had not created nor could do anything about. I created the idea of a temporal lobe condition which would explain my erratic behaviour. The doctor's were wise to my strategy, but in essence I had been looking for a way to stay sober in comfort, without direct responsibility for anything, or alternatively a way to stay drinking without the consequences. What was going on with me was dishonesty, self deception, an inability to see the truth about myself, and a reluctance to live sober because it had always been such a miserable experience. Alcohol, a depressant, had been my solution, but no longer worked.
My ego also didn't like the idea that I might be self pitying, dishonest, lazy, fearful and resentful. Such unpleasant words, my ego held a much higher opinion than that and just didn't want to go there.
The big book talks about how alcoholics are seldom honest with their doctors. That applied to me, but fortunately my doctors had other sources of information from which they determined the truth. And that was that I was greedy self loving, selfish, fearful self pitying, dishonest alcholic looking for any easy way out. Fortunately there were no pills available that would treat those symptoms. The only thing that would was a spiritual experience, a complete change of personality sufficient to bring about recovery from alcoholism.
To switch to a medical point of view the same symptoms described slightly differently, and leaving out any unrequested information, can produce words like depression, lethargy, anxiety, panic, anger. The scientific diagnosis would be these things are caused by some chemical imbalance, trauma, or something like that, and we do have pills for that.
I have known a few non alcoholic people afflicted with depression. They are up front with their doctors and friends, they dont seem to have all that justification and drama in the background. It is a fairly staright forward thing to treat, usually with some temporary medication and then therapy, and they recover after a while. They pretty much followed doctor's orders like they would for any other illness.
I was once diagnosed with depression. The pills they gave me had no effect. On the other hand, alcohol fixed it immediately, if only temporarily.
It is difficult for an outsider to tell the difference. The symptoms are so similar. Many alcoholics are misdiagnosed simply because science has no room for spiritual, and the science guys have the street cred. They would be thought silly if they put a spiritual label on a condition.
I believe it all comes down to honesty, and possibly desire. Today I am completely honest with my doctor. And I want the real deal with AA, the fourth dimension of existence as they say. Not everyone wants that, or perhaps it is truer to say that not everyone is prepared to do what it takes to get that.
Had my doctors been less well informed, I might well have aimed for a second rate deal myself, an extra but false diagnosis that could help me evade responsibility and discomfort that goes with recovery, a sort of palliative care or harm minimisation approach with which I could live.
That might sound extreme, but in my mental state, 21 years old and locked up with 60 yr plus korsakovs patients, I was perfectly at home there, and didnt' want to leave when they discharged me. I could still be there, never having learnt about life in the real world, never having the experiences sobriety has given me.
Your get the idea. It comes down to self honesty. I could easily deceive the doctor, but I would pay the price. I really have to look at my motives. Back in the hospital, I had absolutely no idea how high the price of dishonesty in this area really is. How could I? I didn't know what I was missing.
Member
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: northern michigan. not the U.P.
Posts: 15,281
for me it was by working the steps.
after going through the steps the 1st time- and also a full year sober, i had some mental mayhem going on. my sponsor suggested talking to my doctor about it. HUH! never woulda thought of that. even then, one major thing occured- learning- NOT through doctor google- what depression is and how it shows itself. it was pretty eye opening that depression doesnt necessarily mean a person is down in the dumps or suicidal.
after going through the steps the 1st time- and also a full year sober, i had some mental mayhem going on. my sponsor suggested talking to my doctor about it. HUH! never woulda thought of that. even then, one major thing occured- learning- NOT through doctor google- what depression is and how it shows itself. it was pretty eye opening that depression doesnt necessarily mean a person is down in the dumps or suicidal.
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Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Miami, FL
Posts: 1,701
When I read about the spiritual malady, it does sound like a psychological disorder. Given when the BB was written, psychological diagnosis and therapy was not as developed as it is now. I think the BB is describing the symptoms of depression other disorders that lead people to self-medicate.
That said, the BB writers also did not have access to what we now know about how addiction affects the brain. The reason why the depression et al of an addict resists treatment is because addiction has changed them.
But this is all technical. The question is does the model presented in the BB help you. Cook books get the chemistry and science of food prep wrong all the time, but as long as the instructions for making the dishes work, the cook book does its job.
You can think of it as a spiritual malady or depression or both or anything else you want as long as it helps you.
That said, the BB writers also did not have access to what we now know about how addiction affects the brain. The reason why the depression et al of an addict resists treatment is because addiction has changed them.
But this is all technical. The question is does the model presented in the BB help you. Cook books get the chemistry and science of food prep wrong all the time, but as long as the instructions for making the dishes work, the cook book does its job.
You can think of it as a spiritual malady or depression or both or anything else you want as long as it helps you.
Member
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Manchester, UK
Posts: 1,111
Personally I think we should be very careful conflating mental health and emotional disorders with spiritual or moral *causes*. Not saying that's what is being said here but it happens.
Spirituality in all its forms...a sense of meaning and purpose in life. .. is recognised in most health models as an important part of emotional wellbeing. There's a well documented link between alcoholism and spirituality in the context of recovery.
But let's not forget Bill W himself battled depression for years even after experiencing 'recovery' from his alcoholism.
I was recently training within a mental health setting. One of our patients committed suicide, the team was in shock a little. The nurse I was training with took me to one side and talked at length about her frustrations as a committed Christian that she was unable to talk about her beliefs with her patients. She was convinced that had she only been allowed to talk about God to this patient it would have changed their life and prevented them committing suicide.
This was one of the most inappropriate conversations I have ever had in my own training. Mental health is not a moral or spiritual issue. Acute depression is not a failing of some sort.
'Spiritual Malady' and 'depression'...perhaps they look similar and there is overlap. But IMO once everything that can be done from a spiritual perspective, has been done...or in times of acute crisis...it's time to let the doctors and specialists take charge.
Just my opinion today...every one has unique beliefs
on matters like these and that's how it should be.
P
Spirituality in all its forms...a sense of meaning and purpose in life. .. is recognised in most health models as an important part of emotional wellbeing. There's a well documented link between alcoholism and spirituality in the context of recovery.
But let's not forget Bill W himself battled depression for years even after experiencing 'recovery' from his alcoholism.
I was recently training within a mental health setting. One of our patients committed suicide, the team was in shock a little. The nurse I was training with took me to one side and talked at length about her frustrations as a committed Christian that she was unable to talk about her beliefs with her patients. She was convinced that had she only been allowed to talk about God to this patient it would have changed their life and prevented them committing suicide.
This was one of the most inappropriate conversations I have ever had in my own training. Mental health is not a moral or spiritual issue. Acute depression is not a failing of some sort.
'Spiritual Malady' and 'depression'...perhaps they look similar and there is overlap. But IMO once everything that can be done from a spiritual perspective, has been done...or in times of acute crisis...it's time to let the doctors and specialists take charge.
Just my opinion today...every one has unique beliefs
on matters like these and that's how it should be.
P
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Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 10,912
This is not from an AA / 12-step point of view, just a personal one. For me, unhealthy spiritual condition involves making destructive choices and engaging in excessive, harmful (on the self and/or others) behaviors in a compulsive, repetitive fashion. Be it excessive drinking or other emotional reactions and behaviors.
Depression is more a physiological condition, almost always do to changes in brain chemistry and sometimes interacting with long-term hardships - why professionals recommend treating it with medications and psychotherapy. Lifestyle changes can often help depression as well, which sometimes includes eliminating bad habits. Alcohol abuse can both cause and exacerbate the changes in the brain that lead to depression, but chronic unhealthy coping methods (more a spiritual malady IMO) are more than that, they represent a lack of ability to care for ourselves and others properly and resistance to change. It also often comes with an impaired ability to find constructive meaning in life, which can be associated with depression sometimes as well, but is a more serious existential problem that needs more complex solutions than simply restoring brain chemistry.
Depression is more a physiological condition, almost always do to changes in brain chemistry and sometimes interacting with long-term hardships - why professionals recommend treating it with medications and psychotherapy. Lifestyle changes can often help depression as well, which sometimes includes eliminating bad habits. Alcohol abuse can both cause and exacerbate the changes in the brain that lead to depression, but chronic unhealthy coping methods (more a spiritual malady IMO) are more than that, they represent a lack of ability to care for ourselves and others properly and resistance to change. It also often comes with an impaired ability to find constructive meaning in life, which can be associated with depression sometimes as well, but is a more serious existential problem that needs more complex solutions than simply restoring brain chemistry.
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Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 2,775
Originally Posted by miamifella
When I read about the spiritual malady, it does sound like a psychological disorder. Given when the BB was written, psychological diagnosis and therapy was not as developed as it is now. I think the BB is describing the symptoms of depression other disorders that lead people to self-medicate.
That said, the BB writers also did not have access to what we now know about how addiction affects the brain. The reason why the depression et al of an addict resists treatment is because addiction has changed them.
But this is all technical. The question is does the model presented in the BB help you. Cook books get the chemistry and science of food prep wrong all the time, but as long as the instructions for making the dishes work, the cook book does its job.
You can think of it as a spiritual malady or depression or both or anything else you want as long as it helps you.
That said, the BB writers also did not have access to what we now know about how addiction affects the brain. The reason why the depression et al of an addict resists treatment is because addiction has changed them.
But this is all technical. The question is does the model presented in the BB help you. Cook books get the chemistry and science of food prep wrong all the time, but as long as the instructions for making the dishes work, the cook book does its job.
You can think of it as a spiritual malady or depression or both or anything else you want as long as it helps you.
Interesting analysis and you might well be correct.
12 Step Recovered Alcoholic
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 6,613
There is a successfull treatment for end stage alcoholism and it is spiritual in nature. There is still no medical solution in spite of all the knowledge now in play. The big book smashes home the fact that it is almost impossible for an alcoholic to recover on the basis of self knowledge, and that is still true today.
There are successful treatments for depression and they are usually medical and or therapeutic in nature, though possibly there is a spiritual element.
The two conditions are different and require different treatment. A mis-diagnosed alcoholic can often end up on seriously addictive medication, and pick up another addiction as a result. There are thousands of people in AA who have travelled this path.
By the same token I have known one or two alcoholics who were so seriously ill with serious mental problems, that using the spiritual approach first was impossible. They had to be locked up to be deprived of alcohol, and then have their mental state stabilised. Actually the book talks about hospitalisation for detox being a desirable thing, before getting too much into the spiritual.
In my experience, this whole picture will be coloured mostly by the actions and motives of the individual who is suffering. Doctors can be mislead, and alcoholics are masters at self deception too. All I can suggest is that the individual identify the problem honestly, then take the correct treatment.
There are successful treatments for depression and they are usually medical and or therapeutic in nature, though possibly there is a spiritual element.
The two conditions are different and require different treatment. A mis-diagnosed alcoholic can often end up on seriously addictive medication, and pick up another addiction as a result. There are thousands of people in AA who have travelled this path.
By the same token I have known one or two alcoholics who were so seriously ill with serious mental problems, that using the spiritual approach first was impossible. They had to be locked up to be deprived of alcohol, and then have their mental state stabilised. Actually the book talks about hospitalisation for detox being a desirable thing, before getting too much into the spiritual.
In my experience, this whole picture will be coloured mostly by the actions and motives of the individual who is suffering. Doctors can be mislead, and alcoholics are masters at self deception too. All I can suggest is that the individual identify the problem honestly, then take the correct treatment.
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Join Date: Jul 2017
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Thanks everyone for a great discussion!
Ken
That's an excellent point about depression not really being discussed years ago, let alone when the BB was first written and published. That makes me wonder, then, what type of patients did psychiatrists like Dr. Silkworth see back then.
I agree with you that meds for anxiety/depression seem to be way too overprescribed in the US. I don't think it's so in Europe?
I'm not trying to bring in an "outside issue" here. I was just curious how to tell the difference, since psychological depression looks so similar to untreated alcoholism. Plus alcoholism is a "mental illness" too since it centers in the mind. That's why I was curious how to tell the difference.
Gottalife
Thank you for first bringing up the topic in a recent post. You posted the bedevilments and added self-pity and resentment. I guess I'm still confused how that differs from depression. How are those things "spiritual" in nature but not "depression"? If I were to walk into any therapist's office and told them I had all those bedevilments (as I have had), s/he would diagnose me immediately with depression, no? I'm just stuck on understanding the difference. Or if I told my doctor these things he'd want me to go on an antidepressant. Yet I've experienced the bedevilments disappearing when I had a spiritual awakening and kept at it.
Alcohol was my solution to my bedevilments. But was it not also my solution to depression and anxiety?
I'm not sure I understand your paragraph about the temperal lobe condition, but I think I did something similar--The obsessions and compulsions to drink at the time were beyond my self-control so I figured something was wrong with my brain.
My ego was different than yours. It loved every selfish second that I wallowed in self pity, delusions, laziness, low self worth, fear, resentment, etc because it knew that made me that much closer to a drink. So I guess you were the opposite, which is just the flip side of the same coin. ;-)
Yes that's true the big book says we're not honest with our doctors. My experience was that I didn't even realize I was being dishonest because I was lying to myself. I acted like nothing was wrong because that's what I was telling myself.
I like how you switched the same symptoms to using medical jargon. It just makes me wonder on both sides of things. If our minds were alcoholic before we even picked up our first drink (if you did a 4th step from an early age), then one could say we were born with a chemical imbalance or something. Yet if it's just our sensitive personality and we needed a change in thinking, then it's not something we'd need pills for. I'm just throwing out my thoughts for discussion purposes.
I loved your point about non alcoholic people with depression. I have a close friend like that and that's exactly as I'd describe her. Her depression and treatment were extremely straight forward. I wonder if that's why we alcoholics/addicts are challenging to the mental health profession? I know someone in AA whose wife is a mental health professional and she's said that in a factual way not a mean way.
You make a fascinating point Mike about alcohol temporarily fixing our "depression" but not pills. Wow. That made me stop in my tracks. Alcohol always made me feel better in the beginning, and with pills, I've seen improvement but not to the same extent. Obviously I would never back to drinking because "fixing" it and "making me feel better" was truly a facade. I needed to learn to be comfortable in my own skin and yes to have a spiritual awakening to not feel that way anymore.
I'm not sure I understand your point about "it all comes down to honesty and desire". Do you mean that for those who cannot be honest enough with themselves to look within may just needs meds, vs those of us who can be truly honest and have the desire to do the work to have and keep a spiritual awakening may not need meds? I have a friend in AA who was so close to having a spiritual awakening but she balked at an amends. She was on various meds and had no plans to get off of them, but I imagine after living in 10, 11, and 12 for a while she may have had a chance to get off of them.
I wonder about those who want the fourth dimension of existence as you wrote, but don't have the proper guidance to get there. But that's for another thread at another time I guess.
How did your doctors at the hospital know you weren't depressed but that it was due to alcoholism? They must've seen something in you when they discharged you that made them see this wasn't depression you were suffering from. I'm not sure I understand how "honesty" has to do with it, but if I look back at when I was hospitalized for a suicide attempt, I think I might understand what you mean. One day there I sort of just "woke up" and things were different. I surprised myself and the staff. Unfortunately my thinking didn't stick. I guess I had to reach another spiritual bottom. But it was all part of important spiritual growth in the right direction.
Thanks for the discussion.
Ken
That's an excellent point about depression not really being discussed years ago, let alone when the BB was first written and published. That makes me wonder, then, what type of patients did psychiatrists like Dr. Silkworth see back then.
I agree with you that meds for anxiety/depression seem to be way too overprescribed in the US. I don't think it's so in Europe?
I'm not trying to bring in an "outside issue" here. I was just curious how to tell the difference, since psychological depression looks so similar to untreated alcoholism. Plus alcoholism is a "mental illness" too since it centers in the mind. That's why I was curious how to tell the difference.
Gottalife
Thank you for first bringing up the topic in a recent post. You posted the bedevilments and added self-pity and resentment. I guess I'm still confused how that differs from depression. How are those things "spiritual" in nature but not "depression"? If I were to walk into any therapist's office and told them I had all those bedevilments (as I have had), s/he would diagnose me immediately with depression, no? I'm just stuck on understanding the difference. Or if I told my doctor these things he'd want me to go on an antidepressant. Yet I've experienced the bedevilments disappearing when I had a spiritual awakening and kept at it.
Alcohol was my solution to my bedevilments. But was it not also my solution to depression and anxiety?
I'm not sure I understand your paragraph about the temperal lobe condition, but I think I did something similar--The obsessions and compulsions to drink at the time were beyond my self-control so I figured something was wrong with my brain.
My ego was different than yours. It loved every selfish second that I wallowed in self pity, delusions, laziness, low self worth, fear, resentment, etc because it knew that made me that much closer to a drink. So I guess you were the opposite, which is just the flip side of the same coin. ;-)
Yes that's true the big book says we're not honest with our doctors. My experience was that I didn't even realize I was being dishonest because I was lying to myself. I acted like nothing was wrong because that's what I was telling myself.
I like how you switched the same symptoms to using medical jargon. It just makes me wonder on both sides of things. If our minds were alcoholic before we even picked up our first drink (if you did a 4th step from an early age), then one could say we were born with a chemical imbalance or something. Yet if it's just our sensitive personality and we needed a change in thinking, then it's not something we'd need pills for. I'm just throwing out my thoughts for discussion purposes.
I loved your point about non alcoholic people with depression. I have a close friend like that and that's exactly as I'd describe her. Her depression and treatment were extremely straight forward. I wonder if that's why we alcoholics/addicts are challenging to the mental health profession? I know someone in AA whose wife is a mental health professional and she's said that in a factual way not a mean way.
You make a fascinating point Mike about alcohol temporarily fixing our "depression" but not pills. Wow. That made me stop in my tracks. Alcohol always made me feel better in the beginning, and with pills, I've seen improvement but not to the same extent. Obviously I would never back to drinking because "fixing" it and "making me feel better" was truly a facade. I needed to learn to be comfortable in my own skin and yes to have a spiritual awakening to not feel that way anymore.
I'm not sure I understand your point about "it all comes down to honesty and desire". Do you mean that for those who cannot be honest enough with themselves to look within may just needs meds, vs those of us who can be truly honest and have the desire to do the work to have and keep a spiritual awakening may not need meds? I have a friend in AA who was so close to having a spiritual awakening but she balked at an amends. She was on various meds and had no plans to get off of them, but I imagine after living in 10, 11, and 12 for a while she may have had a chance to get off of them.
I wonder about those who want the fourth dimension of existence as you wrote, but don't have the proper guidance to get there. But that's for another thread at another time I guess.
How did your doctors at the hospital know you weren't depressed but that it was due to alcoholism? They must've seen something in you when they discharged you that made them see this wasn't depression you were suffering from. I'm not sure I understand how "honesty" has to do with it, but if I look back at when I was hospitalized for a suicide attempt, I think I might understand what you mean. One day there I sort of just "woke up" and things were different. I surprised myself and the staff. Unfortunately my thinking didn't stick. I guess I had to reach another spiritual bottom. But it was all part of important spiritual growth in the right direction.
Thanks for the discussion.
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Tomsteve
You certainly simplified it, and I appreciate that. :-) That makes so much sense. If you go through the steps and live in the steps, but still feel like something isn't quite right, time to see someone. May I ask what you learned what depression is and how it shows itself, vs untreated alcoholism? Did you ever have a time where you weren't applying the steps and you had to tell the difference between if it was untreated alcoholism creeping back in, or actual depression?
You wrote "it was pretty eye opening that depression doesn't necessarily mean a person is down in the dumps or suicidal." I am so curious about this. It seems a lot of my alcoholism is about my thinking and perceptions and reactions to life. But I thought depression was that, too.
Thanks, Tomsteve!
Miamifella
You bring up a really interesting point about how addiction affects the brain. I think I remember reading that depression also affects the brain and can be seen on brain images. I wonder if MRIs or PET scans can differentiate between the depressed brain and the alcoholic/addicted brain?
I love your analogy about the cookbook. Following the steps we get the dish to work. Whether we understand or correctly do the food science behind it isn't the point. Love it!
Do you think, then, there's a difference between "depression" as seen in the alcoholic, vs "clinical depression" in an alcoholic?
Paulokes
I agree, we shouldn't conflate mental health/emotional disorders with a spiritual disease. That's why I am trying to understand and see the difference. If our spiritual malady centers in the mind, and if the bedevilments looks so much like depression/clinical depression, how do we differentiate?
Honestly I hadn't realized that spirituality overall is viewed as "a sense of meaning and purpose in life". Nor did I realize there was a well documented link between alcoholism and spirituality, I thought that was just from the big book. But doesn't "a sense of meaning and purpose in life" also make you think of depression? An emptiness?
Please expand about Bill W's depression after recovery. That is such a good point. Was it true depression, or was it that he failed to enlarge his spiritual life by living in 10, 11, and 12? Is that when he started to write a lot about emotional sobriety?
I am sorry that one of the patients where you were training committed suicide. Hmm as someone who has attempted suicide (a long time ago) and who has fortunately had both great therapists and a spiritual awakening, I am not sure what to say in response to the nurse who wanted to talk about God. Yes it's completely against protocol. If someone had tried to talk to me about God back then, I would've gotten angry, upset, and confused. Then again if someone comes into AA and we share our message which includes God/Higher Power, that's different.
It all just makes me wonder. If a person with clinical depression gets out of their own thoughts and mind and volunteers or something like that, will that resolve their depression, or would they still need meds? If a person with clinical depression had a spiritual awakening even though they weren't alcoholic, would they be cured of depression?
I knew someone in AA for a short time who seemed extremely serene, content, and spiritually healthy. We talked for a bit, and she told me how she had a spiritual awakening but wasn't always like this. She said that for 5 years after she had a spiritual awakening from her step work, she prayed and meditated every day, read a lot of Eckart Tolle, and was able to be clinical depression and medication free. But when she had personal issues and fell out of the habit, her clinical depression came roaring right back. I found this so confusing--was it the non upkeep of her spiritual life (aka warnings in step 10) and back to untreated alcoholism without a physical relapse, or was it a depression relapse? What do you think?
Thanks for sharing your thoughts and experience, Paul.
You certainly simplified it, and I appreciate that. :-) That makes so much sense. If you go through the steps and live in the steps, but still feel like something isn't quite right, time to see someone. May I ask what you learned what depression is and how it shows itself, vs untreated alcoholism? Did you ever have a time where you weren't applying the steps and you had to tell the difference between if it was untreated alcoholism creeping back in, or actual depression?
You wrote "it was pretty eye opening that depression doesn't necessarily mean a person is down in the dumps or suicidal." I am so curious about this. It seems a lot of my alcoholism is about my thinking and perceptions and reactions to life. But I thought depression was that, too.
Thanks, Tomsteve!
Miamifella
You bring up a really interesting point about how addiction affects the brain. I think I remember reading that depression also affects the brain and can be seen on brain images. I wonder if MRIs or PET scans can differentiate between the depressed brain and the alcoholic/addicted brain?
I love your analogy about the cookbook. Following the steps we get the dish to work. Whether we understand or correctly do the food science behind it isn't the point. Love it!
Do you think, then, there's a difference between "depression" as seen in the alcoholic, vs "clinical depression" in an alcoholic?
Paulokes
I agree, we shouldn't conflate mental health/emotional disorders with a spiritual disease. That's why I am trying to understand and see the difference. If our spiritual malady centers in the mind, and if the bedevilments looks so much like depression/clinical depression, how do we differentiate?
Honestly I hadn't realized that spirituality overall is viewed as "a sense of meaning and purpose in life". Nor did I realize there was a well documented link between alcoholism and spirituality, I thought that was just from the big book. But doesn't "a sense of meaning and purpose in life" also make you think of depression? An emptiness?
Please expand about Bill W's depression after recovery. That is such a good point. Was it true depression, or was it that he failed to enlarge his spiritual life by living in 10, 11, and 12? Is that when he started to write a lot about emotional sobriety?
I am sorry that one of the patients where you were training committed suicide. Hmm as someone who has attempted suicide (a long time ago) and who has fortunately had both great therapists and a spiritual awakening, I am not sure what to say in response to the nurse who wanted to talk about God. Yes it's completely against protocol. If someone had tried to talk to me about God back then, I would've gotten angry, upset, and confused. Then again if someone comes into AA and we share our message which includes God/Higher Power, that's different.
It all just makes me wonder. If a person with clinical depression gets out of their own thoughts and mind and volunteers or something like that, will that resolve their depression, or would they still need meds? If a person with clinical depression had a spiritual awakening even though they weren't alcoholic, would they be cured of depression?
I knew someone in AA for a short time who seemed extremely serene, content, and spiritually healthy. We talked for a bit, and she told me how she had a spiritual awakening but wasn't always like this. She said that for 5 years after she had a spiritual awakening from her step work, she prayed and meditated every day, read a lot of Eckart Tolle, and was able to be clinical depression and medication free. But when she had personal issues and fell out of the habit, her clinical depression came roaring right back. I found this so confusing--was it the non upkeep of her spiritual life (aka warnings in step 10) and back to untreated alcoholism without a physical relapse, or was it a depression relapse? What do you think?
Thanks for sharing your thoughts and experience, Paul.
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Aellyce
You bring up an interesting perspective. I thought all this time I made destructive choices to mask depression and anxiety. I wonder how doctors tell there is an actual "change in brain chemistry" to diagnose depression vs alcoholism.
I've seen lifestyle changes help people I know get out of their temporary depression. Sort of like what Gottalife was referring to. Behavioral therapy never worked well for me because even though I have a strong desire to want to change, I never could muster up any motivation to do so, or I'd procrasinate.
But then I'm confused because you say that unhealthy coping mechanisms is more a spiritual malady in your opinion? So an impaired ability to find constructive meaning in life--spiritual, but could also have depression, am I understanding that right?
When I tell my sponsor that I still don't know what God's purpose for me is, she tells me it's to help others. Help other alcoholics. I guess that's why Step 12 keeps us spiritually fit.
Gottalife
Do you think those alcoholics who don't do well in depression therapy need a spiritual awakening? That depression was just a "part" of our spiritual malady?
You make an excellent point here: "the two conditions are different and require different treatment". How does an alcoholic avoid being mis diagnosed?
I've also known a couple of people on serious meds who were unfortunately incapable of having a spiritual awakening. They seemed "blocked" to the step teachings or of looking at their minds differently. One I know goes around telling people she's recovered, looks for sponsees, but she's probably doing a lot more harm than good. I am however sponsoring someone now on heavy duty psych meds and although her brain is processing things slowly, she does seem to be getting it. I pray she sticks with it. I can see it in her eyes how hard she is trying so the willingness and desire is there.
NYCDoglvr
I agree that alcoholism is a mental illness but I was just curious how it's differentiated from the mental illness of depression.
Some people in AA I know were depressed and on meds, did the steps, and completely turned their thinking and lives around and were off meds. So I guess their depression was temporary? Or was it that the spiritual awakening cured their alcoholism which just looked like depression? It's very confusing to me.
You bring up an excellent point about the actions we take. That gets people out of depression but does it get people out of clinical depression? What if because of the depression, someone is unable to take action?
You bring up an interesting perspective. I thought all this time I made destructive choices to mask depression and anxiety. I wonder how doctors tell there is an actual "change in brain chemistry" to diagnose depression vs alcoholism.
I've seen lifestyle changes help people I know get out of their temporary depression. Sort of like what Gottalife was referring to. Behavioral therapy never worked well for me because even though I have a strong desire to want to change, I never could muster up any motivation to do so, or I'd procrasinate.
But then I'm confused because you say that unhealthy coping mechanisms is more a spiritual malady in your opinion? So an impaired ability to find constructive meaning in life--spiritual, but could also have depression, am I understanding that right?
When I tell my sponsor that I still don't know what God's purpose for me is, she tells me it's to help others. Help other alcoholics. I guess that's why Step 12 keeps us spiritually fit.
Gottalife
Do you think those alcoholics who don't do well in depression therapy need a spiritual awakening? That depression was just a "part" of our spiritual malady?
You make an excellent point here: "the two conditions are different and require different treatment". How does an alcoholic avoid being mis diagnosed?
I've also known a couple of people on serious meds who were unfortunately incapable of having a spiritual awakening. They seemed "blocked" to the step teachings or of looking at their minds differently. One I know goes around telling people she's recovered, looks for sponsees, but she's probably doing a lot more harm than good. I am however sponsoring someone now on heavy duty psych meds and although her brain is processing things slowly, she does seem to be getting it. I pray she sticks with it. I can see it in her eyes how hard she is trying so the willingness and desire is there.
NYCDoglvr
I agree that alcoholism is a mental illness but I was just curious how it's differentiated from the mental illness of depression.
Some people in AA I know were depressed and on meds, did the steps, and completely turned their thinking and lives around and were off meds. So I guess their depression was temporary? Or was it that the spiritual awakening cured their alcoholism which just looked like depression? It's very confusing to me.
You bring up an excellent point about the actions we take. That gets people out of depression but does it get people out of clinical depression? What if because of the depression, someone is unable to take action?
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I understand the general point, that symptoms of depression (even outside the context of alcoholism and recovery) are often referred to as seeming selfish, self-centred or self-absorbed. Even from an entirely non-judgemental perspective acute depression by its nature restricts ones ability to see beyond ones current negative outlook and personal perspective.
I think the term non-judgemental is key.
Rather than pretend I have the answers to these, I'll point towards some interesting reading:
https://stepstudy.org/1944-bill-gets-depressed/
A Letter From Bill W. on Depression
BILL WILSON'S FIGHT WITH DEPRESSION
Living with a Depressed Person | Undoing Depression
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.p...cal-evil%3famp
In the end...Who's to say? I know plenty of folks who find abstinence and recovery a great antidote for depression and plenty who still suffer from time to time.
P
I think the term non-judgemental is key.
Rather than pretend I have the answers to these, I'll point towards some interesting reading:
https://stepstudy.org/1944-bill-gets-depressed/
A Letter From Bill W. on Depression
BILL WILSON'S FIGHT WITH DEPRESSION
Living with a Depressed Person | Undoing Depression
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.p...cal-evil%3famp
In the end...Who's to say? I know plenty of folks who find abstinence and recovery a great antidote for depression and plenty who still suffer from time to time.
P
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Join Date: Feb 2016
Posts: 2,654
In my opinion it can be very dangerous for a person who's drinking huge amounts of alcohol daily, for years, to be diagnosed by a spiritual alcohol stoppage group, as someone with 'alcoholism' which can be cured by healing the 'spiritual malady' which was the apparent culmination of 'character defects' which the group believed caused the alcoholism.
Before I left that group, two people in my room died, because they didn't seek professional help for their depression, they committed suicide. Just saying it, as I saw it.
There have been massive advancements in the understanding of the root cause of addiction since the 1930s, when the doctor's opinion was written. As there has been in other areas....if my parents were born in the 1930s they'd be dead now, but with medical advances, they're alive!
Before I left that group, two people in my room died, because they didn't seek professional help for their depression, they committed suicide. Just saying it, as I saw it.
There have been massive advancements in the understanding of the root cause of addiction since the 1930s, when the doctor's opinion was written. As there has been in other areas....if my parents were born in the 1930s they'd be dead now, but with medical advances, they're alive!
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Originally Posted by Pathwaytofree
How does an alcoholic avoid being mis diagnosed?
For me I simply had to accept that I AM an alcoholic. It's not fair, it's not logical, and it's not fun to accept - but it was the only possible solution for me.
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Originally Posted by Tatsy
In my opinion it can be very dangerous for a person who's drinking huge amounts of alcohol daily, for years, to be diagnosed by a spiritual alcohol stoppage group, as someone with 'alcoholism' which can be cured by healing the 'spiritual malady' which was the apparent culmination of 'character defects' which the group believed caused the alcoholism.
I'm active in AA and have come to terms with the 12 steps by applying them in my life and taking others through them. I think what you describe is a huge misunderstanding...in my opinion.
I think it's a shame that people still hear that message.
P
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Originally Posted by paulokes
I think this is why I posted earlier my concerns with that link...when people suggest alcoholism is CAUSED by defects, moral or spiritual failings.
I'm active in AA and have come to terms with the 12 steps by applying them in my life and taking others through them. I think what you describe is a huge misunderstanding...in my opinion.
I think it's a shame that people still hear that message.
P
I'm active in AA and have come to terms with the 12 steps by applying them in my life and taking others through them. I think what you describe is a huge misunderstanding...in my opinion.
I think it's a shame that people still hear that message.
P
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Originally Posted by zenchaser
I don't understand. If the alcoholism is not caused by the defects, moral or spiritual failings then why are they required to be fixed in order to achieve sobriety? I thought the belief was that the internal spiritual malady had to be cured in order for the desire to drink to be lifted. What do you believe the alcoholism is caused by then?
What's described in AA is a spiritual solution to an otherwise virtually incurable problem. It's like a side track...you cannot go directly through or over the wall, so a different approach is required.
A physical reaction to alcohol that pretty much ensures once I commence drinking I will continue with little or no control, whatever the consequences.
A mental preoccupation/obsession with alcohol that continually brings me back to the point of drinking again no matter what convictions or resolution I had.
I cannot change the physical component...I cannot fight against the mental component.
Absolutely no Morality there...just the description of a problem which. ..when you combine those two elements...is almost unsolvable.
The spiritual SOLUTION to that dilemma as I understood it is like a third way. Seek through any means possible (e.g the 12 steps) to bring about a complete change in my perception of life...my ideas, my emotions, my attitudes...my feelings and reaction to life. Which for some reason I can still not entirely explain...completely removes the lifelong preoccupation I had with alcohol.
I realise this is the general forum and I must stress I ain't trying to sell that to anyone or even pretend to completely understand why it works. But I have seen it work many times.
Just want to press the point again...IMO AA does not and never has claimed alcoholism is an illness of moral failing, or one that is caused by faulty Morality or character defects. It is often portrayed as such...usually by outsiders or people that attended and did not like what they heard, sometimes by well intentioned members.
AA is also stocked with folks who just don't drink, and attend meetings to find support and friendship along the way. They are perfectly entitled to do so.
P.s Alcoholism is caused by drinking too much, too often or by having a genetic predisposition and/ or coexisting mental health difficulties ....also IMO
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Thanks for trying to explain Paulokes. I still find it very confusing, but it doesn't really matter because I don't need to understand, I don't use AA. I guess spiritual things aren't meant to be rationally explained.
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