Andante

Point taken, although I believe the question of whether PAWS is "real" is pertinent and relevant -- and I would say that at least some posters did question it.

As you know, it can be incredibly frustrating and demoralizing to be months or even years into sobriety and still feel physically and mentally awful despite concerted efforts at recovery and not just abstinence.

My understanding that the symptoms I was experiencing could have a physiological basis relieved me of the burden of feeling like I was simply going crazy, or that since the symptoms were "all in my head" that I should be able to make them go away entirely by "working my program" harder or something. Before I understood this, my frustration and discouragement contributed more than once to my resuming drinking, which of course only made the problem worse.

Grasping the concept that it wasn't all about deficiencies in my recovery efforts, that my symptoms had a physiological basis at least in part, was essential in order for me to weather to storm and come out on the other side still sober.

So for me, at least, it wasn't just about treating the symptoms -- their source was important too.

ScottFromWI

This is what I really meant to say in fewer words, thanks for putting it more clearly.

I fully believe that my recovery is working not only because of the sobriety specific work that I do, but also the work I do specifically on my physical and mental health. In my particular case anxiety being the main problem, but it's not something that being sober will fix in itself. I have to actively uses strategies to deal with it.

Andante

Thanks When trying to write, I often have the feeling I'm swinging at pitch after pitch without making contact, and it's often evident only in hindsight after the window for editing is over (did I really write that?). It's nice to know I can occasionally score a hit.

I mention this because one of the symptoms peculiar to my particular PAWS package has been aphasia (the inability to think of the right words, or at least the feeling that I'm unable to), and it has been very slow to clear up.

I agree that the focus henceforth should be on solutions, and that one good place to start may be to address one's particular symptoms individually.

Fluffer

Andante - FYI I think your writing is effective and persuasive and I certainly didn't notice any word or logical gaps. Maybe this aphasia IS in your head....

Andante

Quite possibly it is.

Just because our symptoms may have some basis in physiology doesn't mean we PAWS sufferers are above being hypersensitive or perfectionist. In fact, it seems like it may be a common trait.

Hey, Doug39! How are you feeling today? What are your thoughts after reading the responses on your thread?

Gottalife

I am not the sharpest tool in the box and I am now a little confused. Much of the foregoing seems to me to be lumping permanent damage, incurred through alcohol consumption, in with withdrawals.

IMHO nobody gets away scott free from the type of abuse our bodies have suffered. Brain damage is permanent. It seems to be affecting me now as I get older. A friend of mine a few years older is developing alzheimers, detected on an MRI scan which also showed the damage from his drinking career. He has been sober 49 years. I remember one chap who had what he called peripheral neuritis from drinking. He never stopped shaking. Other organs are often badly damaged, heart, liver, pancreas, bowel and so on. Diabetes is common.

I know a man who lost his leg as a result of his alcoholism. Like the brain damage, it is a permanent loss, a consequence not a syndrome.

These are physical consequences of alcoholism. Some will clear up, some won't and some will clear up and then come back after after a time. And when they do, we look to the medical community for solutions. That is just something I have to accept.

But when it comes to how I am feeling I have learned two things. The first is that I am predisposed to trying to pin it on some outside cause,
thereby absolving myself of any responsibility. To date this approach has not provided a solution. The second thing I have learned through prolonged experience with the first, is that action on my program for successful living does provide a lasting solution.

Doug39

Thanks for asking.

I had a really good day today. I saw a really good lead at an AA meeting and my PAWS symptoms were very manageable today.

Thank you all for the comments and I will focus on my recovery and sobriety - and not on PAWS.

Andante

You seem plenty sharp to me, Gottalife — if you’re suffering from brain damage, it’s not evident in your posts.

Seems to me there’s no distinct line separating the disruptions to brain functionality that can occur in acute withdrawal, PAWS, or permanent “brain damage.” Some brain damage may be permanent, but some may be worked around through re-training, and some may clear up on its own with time. Fortunately not many alcoholics end up with the neurological equivalent of losing a leg, as in your example. Although it can happen, the vast majority of us can find healing — some quicker, some slower.

Although some of my own ongoing issues may indeed be permanent, I’d prefer to lump them under the PAWS heading, as that allows me to retain some hope that they’ll clear up with time and effort.

I agree wholeheartedly that whatever the state of damage to our brains, working on a program of recovery can have a tremendous effect on how we react and respond to the situation emotionally.

I could add a devil's-advocate question about whether emotional functionality can be permanently damaged by alcohol along with cognition and memory, but I probably shouldn't go there

Andante

Good on ya!

For what it's worth, I often noticed that a bad PAWS days would be followed by a good one. Over time, the good days began to outnumber the bad. I can still have a bad day nowadays, but they're few and far between.

Jack465

Agreed - this was my experience with PAWS as well.

For the first few months of sobriety, I was doing everything I could to work towards recovery, but I still felt terrible because of the symptoms I had. It got to a point where the symptoms were holding me back from doing anything further to progress with my recovery. I felt like I was stuck in a hole - can't work towards recovery, can't go back to drinking.

Like I said above, this eventually passed with time.

I'm just glad I already had the knowledge at that point that drinking again would only make things even worse than they already were!!

Talkinandwalkin

I believe to a large extent what Gotta said about working on the issues. However, it can be cathartic to learn the root of the issue as well. After all; is the unexamined life worth living?I belive that the majority of us were handed crappy tool sets when it comes to the ability to modulate our ability to deal with stress as well as other issues. Once we realize that it makes it far easier to avoid some of those issues. I remember hearing a story about Randy Moss, the ex NFL wide receiver showing up late to practice in slippers and running the fastest 40 yard dash during practice. In short we can not show up late to practice when it comes to these mental issues as we will get our A** handed to us every time.

Jack465

Sorry, Andante - this wasn't meant as a response to your comment about relapsing when you had PAWS. I realized later that it might have sounded that way. I also relapsed during PAWS, as I mentioned earlier.

August252015

I have strong feelings about the subject of PAWS as I often share how I suffered a severe case for weeks, even a few months. I will just sum it up here to say that I thought of all of my symptoms as the alcohol getting out of my system, rolling from head to toe and out. I was VERY sick when I quit- and I went cold turkey from a very heavy vodka habit because I chose uncertain life and physical/emotional effects over certain death by drinking.

I related to all the info about PAWS I learned, and I also read up and learned about the one-two years healing (that longer end particularly for women, and very heavy chronic drinkers like me) and I am AMAZED at the healing I have had. I am closing in on one year and pretty much think I am close to a "normal" 40 year old with ups and downs. Whatever the root "cause" of my ills along the way, PAWS or basic physiological and mental stuff, I have gotten better with time, effort, treatment (great team of drs and a good med regimen) and....no alcohol.

Everything is better sober. The whys and wherefores of healing are cool to understand....but bottom line, it's not drinking that allows us to deal with anything and everything that is wrong with us. Take alcohol out of the equation and we have a chance at the healthiest life we specifically/individually can have.

soberlicious

Exactly.

While interesting to debate, PAWS real vs. PAWS not real, isn't really germane to quitting and remaining quit.

esoxlucius

Hi Doug,

When I was three months sober I also was hunting around looking for answers on exactly that (sober for nearly two years now) and I wanted to know what was happening to my body and what was going to happen and what would improve and when.

Unfortunately as you can see, everyone really is different and there are many many variable at work (including whether PAWS exists or not).

I drank heavily for 30 years.

But from my experience I can tell you this:

• I did suffer from most if not all of the symptoms of PAWS
• The first three months were a bit of a daze (you mention a dream-like state, I can relate to that)
• After six months I expected to be feeling better than I did but in hindsight there were lots of improvements that were too subtle for me to see at the time
• After a year I felt a whole lot better
• Now I feel very present, much clearer and much healthier

I reckon I felt "normal" (a very relative concept) again after about a year but not strong for another year if that make any sense. And yes, I did have to white-knuckle it at times in the first year (especially around key milestones such as 6 months, first Christmas sober etc).

Hand in there, it really does get so much better. Good luck.

Doug39

Again, thanks to everyone who replied.

My main problem is managing my anxiety.

I go back to work on February 6th - I have been on leave from work since October 26th, 2016 for anxiety and depression. Going back is going to be tough.

My alcoholism triggered my anxiety and depression but now at 99 days sober I feel I can cope fairly well. The PAWS symptom do seem to lessen everyday - with many ups and downs.

I woke up feeling really good and refreshed today - but now I feel a little low. I plan on going to an AA meeting everyday up until I start work.

ljc267

Doug we are pretty much at the same stage of sobriety and I can tell you that I still am very up and down. Yesterday was not the best day but I have a bad cold, so that is part of it. Today is much better and my head is clearer. I still seem to have a hangover type feeling in my head some days. Do you get this to?

Also, I still don't physically feel 100% but compared to 2 months ago I am a lot better. Mentally I have a lot less anxiety and am able to manage it much better.

hang in there and best of luck to you.

Doug39

Thanks.

Yes, morning are the worst for me. Some days the "hangover" feeling sticks with me only a few hours - some days longer. The best part of my day in the few hours before I go to bed. All my obligations for the day are done and I can relax.

The most important thing about managing anxiety is to not let it stop me from living. I had anxiety this morning about going to an AA meeting but I still attended. I had anxiety at the meeting but I stayed. I would have felt worse if I would have stayed home and hide in my house.

BrendaChenowyth

What exactly is the state of normal that we hope to achieve once we stay sober for a certain amount of time? Because all human beings struggle with every aspect of their existence. But we look around and we see everyone - for lack of a better word - "adulting" better than us. Let' s just face it, I don't care if they're our age or younger than us, they've been a functioning adult longer than we have, because they haven't been drinking the whole time. We have not been "adulting" all this time and now we have to start learning how to adult.

It means taking care of yourself, taking care of your responsibilities, handling your emotions appropriately, being honest, learning from your mistakes, and figuring out through experience what truly matters in life, for you. It's a lifelong learning curve that most people start when they move out of their mom's house.

Everyone has those years where they struggle and do one irresponsible thing after another after another and learn from it and eventually become responsible. But we spent years drinking instead of maturing. We're at square one with regards to "adulting", and it's a learning curve that some of us are at the very beginning of. It's gonna be hard, and we're gonna complain, and we're gonna be bitchy and feel like resisting growth and change, but we will eventually adjust.. just like any of you who have college age kids will watch your kids do.

PAWS feels an awful lot like the angst of transitioning to adulthood to me, in short.

Doug39

A lot of good stuff here.

I guess I just want to feel comfortable in my own skin. I remember times in my life when I was happy and really felt alive and ambitious. I know 27 years of alcohol abuse has damaged my mind and body - so I realize I may never be back there again.

This is true. The emotions and feelings that have been coming out of me over these last 99 days of sobriety have been a wild ride. I do feel and see glimpses of the old me before I abused alcohol.

The main issue here is I have forgotten how to socialize and have a conversation with someone while sober. In the beginning I used alcohol to be more outgoing and then ended up sitting in my house for years drinking so I am out of touch with the outside world in many ways.


This is also true for me.