paintballguy

Ok this may get long.

I have friend/romantic interest who lives in cali i live in canada. weve never met in person but talk all the time and text like crazy. She is a recovering alcoholic sober 12 years. When we started talking i was drinking daily, back about 16 months ago, it didnt seem to be much of a problem.

She was going to fly up and i detoxed myself over a month because i knew hanging out with her sitting around drinking wouldnt be on the menu. She ended up cancelling her flight. She had another flight booked a few months ago whe cancelled that one too.

Well a month ago i started getting physical withdrawal symptoms at work (shakes, dizzy) and it freaked me out as id never had that before so i checked myself into a detox because i learned you could get really sick and the symptoms were pretty bad.

I came out of detox and my friend was riding my ass to go to AA. I had already signed up and despite just getting out of detox she pushed me to go to a meeting and rode my ass to go to one every day. Some days it was hard because i had spent hours and hours at the detox outpatient program and i was getting burned out of recovery stuff but she rode me hard and i ended up going.

Well i read the big book and i realized that AA wasnt for me at all with all the religion. She was real mad that i wasnt going to do AA and basically said if i didnt do AA (she quit with AA) that i was going to end up right back daily drinking and be worse than ever. I told her im not doing AA.

So ive booked myself in with an addictions psychotherapist and im going to explore smart, lifering, rational recovery, drinking in moderation and basically shop around to all the programs and with the assistance of the therapist figure out which route is how i want to go, whether its abstinence or moderation.

She was really angry about all of this and accused me of not wanting to admit things and that in was in denial and that i didnt want to do the steps because of this. actually the reason i didnt want to do aa was because of all the religion and i did my research and found out that its not particularly effective and can be harmful for those its not suited to.

Well so this weekend i ended up drinking a bit, nothing at all close to the way i drank before (i used to drink 15+ ounces of hard liquor a day). I didnt get drunk and it was less than a drink an hour. Not good if i want to be abstinent i know but i figured im not doing AA so i could care less about the chips. I never bought any alcohol and i was very mindful of what i was doing because i never want to go back to where i was before.

Well i was honest with my friend and she now says shes never going to talk to me again despite that she said after i got out of detox she would never judge me if i slipped. But her anger is more that i am not doing aa and going to meetings than that i had a few drinks yesterday, when i said i was ditching AA because it wasnt for me it sparked the same kind of thing.

Now she says she isnt going to talk to me ever again unless i am back in aa and i get a 90 day chip. I really value her and want her in my life. We have communicated so much over the past 16 months that whenever shes pulled this in the past i have really missed her and our banter.

I dont know what to do. Ive retained an addictions psychotherapist, ive got all the resources for the other programs and im not just giving up on changing my life, im participating in the outpatient program every week.

I had a few drinks last night but i didnt even crave anything today and have been sober all day. I doubt im going to drink anything for quite a while. Its almost like something really changed after i got out of detox inside me, something is really different and i like it. I am working to reclaim my life back and get into the hobbies and activities i used to be into before drinking every day took over my life and im looking for new things that i enjoy to try.

I talked to my uncle about my falling out with AA (he was in and out of it himself) and how i was getting pressure to go to ever more meetings and how i hated the religious comoponent. He said that "its your program" and i needed to do whatever i felt that works for me and that made a lot of sense. My friend in particular was putting a lot of pressure on me to do AA and keep hitting the meetings and it was tough because her heart is in the right place.

I dont know what to do. Now she wont talk to me and i cant get through to her that im going to do this my own way but that everything is going to be ok. She really thinks AA is the only game in town and that now ive taken a few drinks im going to be having seizures and drinking worse than ever in a few months. I dont know what to say to her.

??

Soberintexas007

My personal opinion is that your best chance at sobriety is through AA, and it seems your friend knows this. Develop your own definition of a Higher Power and try not to let what others say bother you. I have a friend who also detests the religious component of AA, and so he now goes to atheist AA meetings, and he even has started one up. That may be an idea for you.

Dee74

You're entitled to do as you see fit, just as your friend is entitled to hold her opinions.

I'm sorry it's painful.

For what it's worth tho, I understand your friends reaction.

I'm not in AA but I've seen a lot of people, friends, who could not make the break with drinking, and put their relationship with alcohol ahead of the relationship we had.

and I'm not on my high horse. I saw it from the other side too when I chose alcohol over people who cared for me.

D

Della1968

I guess the way I see it is she is probably protecting her own sobriety. It must hurt to watch someone go through withdrawals and detox but still think they can moderate. Maybe AA isn't for you but as far as it being "your program" I am not really sure that you have one. I have tried all the things you mentioned and none of them worked till I was desperate for something to work. Perhaps she has too.

ESD907

She's been sober a long time. She's probably seen Her share of too many yrelapses/failure to stay sober. Sounds to me like she wants her friends 100% sober and deadly serious about it. She is clearly stating how she feels. Not knowing her story she may have pulled herself thru lots of tribulations and is t willing to give an inch. I've also gone thru the I can have one drink and look at me. I'm fine. Then next thing I know I'm "quitting" again. I now take a one day/1 hour/1minute approach and it's working. I can't moderate. I've tried a dozen times. Sometimes it takes failing in order to succeed.

LBrain

sorry she feels that way, you are better off without her. me personally, I wouldn't recommend aa to a friend

sg1970

It sounds like she is putting her sobriety first which is how it should be. If it were me I would want a lot more than 3 months of clean time. More like a year with a good program whether it's aa or not.

She may be closed minded with the insisting it's aa thing but that's her choice. It's her sobriety at stake and you are a risk factor. Too many fish in the sea for that.

One recommendation (from AAer's ) is to put sobriety first and hold off on major changes for a year. Perhaps go that route and get a program together that works for you during that time. You will change a lot, physically and mentally, in your first year of recovery. You may see things differently then.

ScottFromWI

Lots of good advice here. I think the core of the problem is that you still haven't accepted or admitted to yourself that you have a problem though. Your drinking, even though it is sporadic right now, is a pretty clear indication of that, especially after having gone through detox.

I think your plan to see an addictions counselor is a good one, and making sobriety your number one priority is crucial. Not everyone does AA, but don't rule it out until you've given it a fair shake. The bottom line is than no matter which method you choose, there are going to be things you have to do that you don't want to and it will be hard work.

paintballguy

Well the crux of the problem is that AA definitely isnt for me. I posted qnother thread earlier on here about how i felt tricked about the religious component. I went to meetings every day for a week got a temporary sponsor and read the big book front to back. The people were very nice and im friends still with a few of the people i met but i didnt like what i learned of the program at all and found the whole premise offensive. In contrast my courses at the outpatient program i quite enjoy and i learn a lot from them. I may ruffle some feathers but as far as im concerned step 2-11 may as well be a fairy tale. I know aa works for some and thats great. Im not going any further than step 1.

Back to my friend/romantic interest she hasnt gone to a meeting in 8 years and none of this was a problem when i was actively drinking. I am actively seeking out alternative programs and may even attend some AA meetings from time to time for the peer support.

I need to get through to her that i need to do this my way. If i were to "fake it" and stick in AA without my heart in it im certain it would do more harm than good. I have an interim plan, ive been reading a lot of books on the subject, an addictions psychotherapist, im enrolled in an outpatient program for over 5 hours a week and i am going to check out alternatives (SMART thursday).

I will even check out drinking in moderation to see if that program might work for me or if my drinking pattern disqualifies me.

How would i get through to her? Its hard to just give up on her, she has become a big part of my life.

Bmac

On my list of things to care about and invest any of my emotional energy into while trying to get sober and deal with my addiction and put my life back together, the opinion of a long distance love interest would fall somewhere in the 20's.

There are other things and people that are and will become a big and important part of your life. Right now the most important part of your life is YOU!

doggonecarl

Moderate drinkers of alcohol generally don't need detox.

Seems you have two issues. Work on the main one--your sobriety. Stay sober long enough, the issue with your friend may resolve itself on its own accord. But as long as you are still entertaining the thought of drinking, you have a lot of work to do on the first issue.

ScottFromWI

Just be honest - and start with yourself. Your problem is much larger that the disagreement between you and your friend regarding AA. People who need to check in to a medical detox facility are not capable of moderation - simple as that.

I'd personally suggest finding a sobriety plan that works for you - and you already have a meeting scheduled with an addiction counselor which is a great start. Regarding your friend, just be honest about your goals - things will take care of themselves if you focus on finding a sober way of life that works for you. Following through on that plan will speak volumes.

MIRecovery

Your friend demands that you are sober if there is to be any type of relationship which is as it should be.

Your drinking hurt her because she was emotionally invested in you and is angry because she could see it coming and gave you a way that worked for her. You rejected it and are not sober.

I doubt AA is an absolute for her but recovery and sobriety are

Aellyce

I was in a long term relationship with another (active) alcoholic for several years in the past and while none of us stopped drinking during that time, we disagreed quite fundamentally on how we viewed our conditions. Basically, I brought up that our drinking clearly got in the way of our even being able to have a truly satisfying and practically manageable relationship while he remained in denial about it. I then moved quite far away to a different state but we stayed in touch on and off for years, ~up to the point when I finally decided to quit drinking for good and make many changes in my life. He is still drinking as far as I know but tried to reconnect a few times, and once we had a long discussion about recovery, at that point he realizing the addiction to be a serious problem and he brought back the idea that we could perhaps finally remain sober together. I said a firm no to it, and never questioned it later.

The thing is, I totally understand that between two people who had serious addictions, when one embraces recovery long-term and the other keeps struggling and relapsing, it can be very stressful and painful for both parties. Probably it further complicates the construct that your relationship has been a virtual one, but it sounds like a quite close connection. I've had a few of those during my active years (online friendships) and to be honest with you, in retrospect, they caused more stress to all of us involved than good. A few times I never even informed those friends about my alcoholism and other struggles, but they could clearly perceive something was "off" about me. Some of these connections became quite addictive and developed extreme elements also with time, which did not impact our lives positively at all.

From the OP, it sounds like your friend is a bit controlling, maybe more than what is good for her and for you, but if we think about it... I understand. It's very hard to have any sort of close relationship with an active addict, if for nothing else, because most of us tend to hide a lot of stuff and lie in order to protect our habit. I actually experienced this a little bit in my recovery, when in an intense online connection with someone who was in an out of sobriety during that time. I also read here many times and heard in AA that people in longer term recovery often choose to steer clear of being close friends with someone who still struggles... initially when I was freshly sober I did not get this completely, but I totally understand it and choose the same now.

My suggestion would be that you somehow tone down this friendship for a while at least, and focus on the maintenance of your own recovery. Dealing with a stormy relationship, especially one that has these elements of curiosity and intrigue that come with being close with someone only virtually, will probably undermine your mental states and ability to focus on yourself. I believe it's also stressful for her and understand her bursts of trying to go no contact -- I did that, too.

I totally understand how it would be hard for you to let her go though -- as I said I've been there several times and concluded in the end even after quite a solid sober time that investing myself in purely online relationships is best with some realistic constrains. It's simply because these things can affect us more deeply and in more ways than we might want to, or could easily manage emotionally. Based on your story, perhaps this whole thing has also become a little addictive for both of you. And of course you both are angry about the limitations than come with it.

I am with others: find a recovery plan for you and put that first before any friendship, for a while.

paintballguy

I thank you for the long, well thought out and very relevant post.

Yes the relationship has been somewhat addicting, moreso for her than for me, which at times has proven frustrating. Last summer when I self detoxed in anticipation of her trip and brought myself to complete sobriety I was trying to fill my days with other (non drinking) activities and my lack of instant availability angered and frustrated her to the point where she cancelled her flight. I wasnt dropping off grid for days, in some cases it was a mere few hours of low contact. Now that I am working on changing my life and have been sober I have again been participating in other activities than sitting around texting all day on the phone and this has resurfaced.

When I was drinking and sitting around my house, I was available pretty well instantly and on demand, because I wasnt doing much other than sitting around my house drinking alone. She knew what I was doing and it seemed fine.

My decision to seek treatment was made only about a month ago because I was experiencing physical withdrawal on a daily basis - something that happened very suddenly almost like flipping a switch.

Prior to that I really could just stop drinking without any ill effects. This scared me and sent me to get professional help to break the cycle. The next stage would have been morning drinking and at work, trying to hide it, and I wasnt about to go to that level.

Yes the focus on AA has been quite a point of contention with us. This never was an issue while I was drinking. When I had read the big book and realized how faith based the program was I expressed to her my frustration and decision not to continue. She started pressuring me very hard trying to convince me and I pushed back (I was an athiest who was adopted at 12 by a prysbetarian family in a small town where religion was heavy, when I feel pressured about God and the like I get very offended and defensive) and it became a source of friction.

I asked her several times that we not talk about AA anymore, if she wanted to share an experience that was AA related that would be fine, but if she sensed me getting uncomfortable to just drop it. Unfortunately suddenly all conversations started leading back to AA which I found extremely frustrating. I wanted to talk to my friend not an AA sponsor or recruiter.

Yes it is quite intense at times. In a way I really need her as I chart my course to move beyond this and build a healthier life. I was not a binge or morning drinker, I drank out of boredom most of the time, often alone. I never had a problem putting the bottle back in the freezer three quarters full, getting some rest and going off to work in the morning. The nurses and addictions counsellors in the treatment centre called me "ultra high functioning" given the amount and regularity with which I drank.

So being able to resume our relationship, virtual or otherwise, does allow me something supportive to do when there really isnt much of anything else to do (when I'm low on money, it's raining, I have to go to work in the morning, my house is perfectly clean and quiet and there's nothing jumping out at me to do for example).

I may have to do just that, especially if she makes the decision for me, which it appears that she has. Although my relationship with her tends to be a roller coaster going from her wanting only friendship, to professing deep love, to blocking my number, to her reaching out, to being unblocked, and the cycle continues. I'm not sure if she is in this for keeps or if it is yet another cycle.

In conclusion, there is more than one way to skin the cat of an alcohol problem, AA doesn't have a monopoly over achieving my goal; and I'm not even certain that lifelong abstinence even is my goal at this point, this is something I need to discover as I check out the variety of other treatment/support options which are available.

I checked myself into treatment to break the cycle of withdrawal; my doctor had even told me not to stop drinking until I got into the detox facility to be professionally monitored. Now that that cycle is broken I am very determined to never go back there, whether that be abstinence, moderation, or something in between. Something in me has definitely changed since having to make that call. I had a girl over who I met in my outpatient program, she was most definitely drinking and I saw my old self in her and realized how far along I had come.

When I entered AA I was looking at a general life goal of seizing my life back so I wasnt basically working or drinking. To get back to non-alcohol centric activities that brought me enjoyment and to rebuild my life to no longer revolve around alcohol and drinking. IMO, AA, at least as I have been exposed to it is simply replacing doing the actual drinking with talking about not drinking, and I was being encouraged by several to attend morning lunch and evening meetings in addition to my outpatient program. My goal was to no longer have alcohol be the dominant force in my life, and attending endless meetings and treatment talking about alcohol was certainly not what I had in mind.

I just wish I could get through to this girl that I am taking this seriously and that I need to find my own way through this. If I went to AA and faked it I think it would do more harm than good.

ScottFromWI

You can get through to her by staying sober. Drinking any amount proves just the opposite to her. It will take time, and there is really nothing you can say that will "get through" to her - it has to come through with your actions by not drinking - at all.

And "faking it" would definitely be a bad decision, sobriety and trust is founded in honesty.

Aellyce

What you are describing, once again, does not surprise me at all given my experience with these "virtual stories". I also totally understand how you feel that you need her and that the relationship is supportive in some ways. I am sure it is, indeed. The complication with the online relationships though, especially the kinds where the parties involved tend to the romantic interest area, is that a lot of it is based on imagination rather than real and solid experience. It's so easy to get carried away since there is little reality testing involved. But the truth is, I think interpersonal compatibility cannot be seriously tested based on purely online chemistry, there is just so much more necessary for it to work and to make it reliable and solid in 3D reality. Again, I'm speaking from first hand experiences, and not one or two.

From your posts, it also sounds like she is not very stable herself and does not know or cannot decide what she wants, longer term sobriety or not. This may be either just due to the nature of your connection and perhaps frustrations related to it, or perhaps more issues about her that you cannot see/assess this way reliably. I think that many of us addicts have issues with relationships and attachment -- this has definitely been my experience also. I just never could have a truly trustful, reliable, consistent relationship with anyone online and in a few cases clearly and confidently not because of me, which I did not always see initially and for a while. But the thing is, once we are invested in a certain way, it's hard to put limits and control on it... I mean we can in terms of the actual communication, but the emotions are a whole different issue. And in my experience, an online connection is never sufficient to provide the safety and consistency that people with healthy needs regarding relationships can ever express or find satisfyingly. I think that meeting people online is just as good as meeting anywhere else, but more is necessary for a real, close relationship to develop... especially something that we could call potential for a romantic relationship. This is only one reason why I am suggesting that you limit your investment if you don't want to cut it completely.

On the AA question, this sounds to me another indication that she may not be very good for you right now to invest a lot into. Trying to force these expectations and then having debates without much basis is probably unlikely to support you in your recovery. And your resistance is probably bothers her. Again, my advice is to put the relationship on hold at least for a while and focus on finding something that works for you. Can still keep her as a friend and source of support, but I would definitely refrain from the romantic interest for now. I know it's hard though, again because our emotions don't always conform to rational considerations.

greens

Find what works for you. I think it is a great idea to try smart. Basically , staying sober should be first and foremost right niw, if she doesn't agree with your actions to do so she isn't really looking out for your best interests IMO. If you stay on your own path and do what is right for you you will find the right crowd of people, this was my experience

paintballguy

Yes, I agree with you. She has, when the relationship got more romantic, demanded a lot of celibacy and accountability, yet cancelled flights to come and see me which the two times she did it definitely left me hanging. I actually, on one outburst, let her know that this whole "friend, love, block, reach out, repeat" cycle with the cancelled flights forced me to hedge my bets. At times she's gone off and blocked me over some perceived slight or lack of availability and I didnt even know that she had blocked me.

That all said, when she's being supportive, she has been very supportive. An excellent person to talk to. Its the off-cycles that get frustrating.

She has been sober 12 years. While I have no way to verify that as I've only known her 16 months, I'd take her at her word. When I was drinking daily, it didnt seem to be much of a problem, she'd ride me about it but there was no pressure for me to quit. Only when I checked myself into detox of my own volition did she become very militant about AA towards me.

Yes, I have my own issues in relationships and I'm certain she does too. She is a totally beautiful woman, inside and out, and I have often times wondered why she has been single for so long in a city of 4 million people and has latched onto me. I didnt even meet her on a dating site, we started out as friends. We are quite compatible mentally (hence all the communication) but IMO its hard for me to completely hold out for someone I've never met in person, especially someone who keeps booking flights then cancelling and taking a loss on the tickets.

I may not have much choice. It has been frustrating trying to sidestep the obvious disagreement on AA and to just agree to disagree, only to have her throw the AA stuff back at me at the next available opportunity. As I said I've asked her to just stop talking to me about it so we dont argue, but it keeps surfacing.

She has said so much as that I will be having seizures in 45 days back drinking worse than ever before and end up dying of cirrohsis if I dont get with the AA program. Its almost as if, if I dont embrace AA, there's no way I'm going to get a handle on my drinking habits/problems. I have tried to show her I am bringing in a ton of different resources and that I'm going to shop around for something that agrees with me, but she keeps coming back to AA, accusing me of not wanting to admit I have a problem (which I obviously did checking into a detox facility) and not wanting to "do the work" of the 12 steps so I can keep drinking which isnt true.

I just find the program doesnt work for me.

I may just have no choice, and if I do have a choice it may be muddied. I've tried embracing her as just a friend (seeing as I've never met her) and to write the "romantic" story once we meet up at her own insistence, but she just drifts back into romantic mode.

What I value the most about her is our frequent communication and her understanding of a lot of the same things as me. When she goes dark on me, life is quite lonely. I thought that when I got out of detox, I could count on her to help fill some of the voids. I bought an unlimited phone card just a few days ago so I could call her frequently, I hadnt placed more than two phonecalls on that card before she decided to cut me off.. again.

Groan. Why does it have to be so complicated... lol

ScottFromWI

It doesn't have to be, you are doing a pretty good job of making it that way though ;-) You are focusing on the wrong problem - the relationship. The problem you need to focus on is sobriety and doing whatever it takes to attain it.

The relationship will take care of itself if you can prove to her that you are serious about getting sober - you've already indicated that. Concentrate on that.