Don't pay for it!?
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Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: PA
Posts: 12,000
post 118 - gottalife may be on to something...
last night before I retired I read several articles on brainwashing and brainwashing techniques. I wasn't going to bring it into this, but post 118 kind of relates to how aa can work for the absolute bottom of the barrel or desperate drunks. aa is nothing more than a brainwashing program. if you break it down and analyze it , that is exactly what it is. If you want to call it a spiritual awakening, fine.
last night before I retired I read several articles on brainwashing and brainwashing techniques. I wasn't going to bring it into this, but post 118 kind of relates to how aa can work for the absolute bottom of the barrel or desperate drunks. aa is nothing more than a brainwashing program. if you break it down and analyze it , that is exactly what it is. If you want to call it a spiritual awakening, fine.
Trudgin
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 6,348
Originally Posted by courage2 
Yeah, actually, I've never heard anyone blame a relapse on AA. Or a slip or picking up or whatever. That's why I put in the "may". But ... whatever. This seems like a phantom issue to me, but if others want to pursue it, go for it. 
Originally Posted by LBrain
there are 2 things I know to be true:
1. Someone posted a photo that made this thread a pain in the ass to read because it is wider than my screen now.
2. Whoever said this wouldn't turn into a debate was either joking or... let's just go with joking.
And since we're on the subject. AA has caused more people to relapse than no treatment at all.
1. Someone posted a photo that made this thread a pain in the ass to read because it is wider than my screen now.
2. Whoever said this wouldn't turn into a debate was either joking or... let's just go with joking.
And since we're on the subject. AA has caused more people to relapse than no treatment at all.
The King Has no clothes - I'm calling it
p***enger
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Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: NYC
Posts: 19,049
Originally Posted by LBrain
post 118 kind of relates to how aa can work for the absolute bottom of the barrel or desperate drunks. aa is nothing more than a brainwashing program.
Laozi Old Man
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Detroit, MI
Posts: 6,665
Originally Posted by LBrain
aa is nothing more than a brainwashing program. if you break it down and analyze it , that is exactly what it is. If you want to call it a spiritual awakening, fine.
If you want to call it brainwashing - that is your opinion. However, when you express an opinion about an experience which you have never had, I very, very, very much look forward to ignoring it. You can speculate all you want about an experience prior to living it, but you can't call it "experience". In a court of law that is known as conjecture.
:
Court jester
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: South Florida
Posts: 508
Originally Posted by Boleo
and found that it is way... way more complicated and profound than any neophyte can possibly comprehend.
Laozi Old Man
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Detroit, MI
Posts: 6,665
You are referring to the same recovery program with a 3-8% long term success rate?
That is why I called it "complicated and profound". 12 step recovery is an "experience" that must be lived. Unfortunately most people want to analyze it and understand it first. Something that serves as a red herring to getting results with it.
p***enger
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I never understand why people get in such a fuss about other people's recovery programs, UNLESS there's a serious cost or willful chicanery.
I mean, in the peer-support based programs, you can always just walk away, right? In fact, people do, all the time, at no particular consequence to themselves. No one stalks them or hounds them, right? And there's no bait-and-switch (sorry Dee for using the phrase before, it was poor word choice then) involved -- no one says, "Ha! You thought you were walking in the door of a church basement for recovery, but here's the contract, sign away all your possessions!"
So for free programs, why does anyone care whether they're helpful for other people? I'm only interested in whether they're helpful for me. And I sure as hell don't expect any program to recover me or get me sober. That's my business.
It's like borrowing a book from the library. At worst, I'm only wasting my time.
It seems to me that the issue is only important if I'm buying the book.
What am I missing here?
I mean, in the peer-support based programs, you can always just walk away, right? In fact, people do, all the time, at no particular consequence to themselves. No one stalks them or hounds them, right? And there's no bait-and-switch (sorry Dee for using the phrase before, it was poor word choice then) involved -- no one says, "Ha! You thought you were walking in the door of a church basement for recovery, but here's the contract, sign away all your possessions!"
So for free programs, why does anyone care whether they're helpful for other people? I'm only interested in whether they're helpful for me. And I sure as hell don't expect any program to recover me or get me sober. That's my business.
It's like borrowing a book from the library. At worst, I'm only wasting my time.
It seems to me that the issue is only important if I'm buying the book.
What am I missing here?
Member
Join Date: Jan 2015
Posts: 1,183
I agree generally, but many people felt forced into a particular program that did not fit, for example by counselors in treatment programs. When I was struggling to rack up even a few days at a time, I was angry that I felt compelled to participate in a program that was counter to some of my core beliefs, and angry that I was being told essentially, this is the only way out. It wasn't the only way out, fortunately. But that anger kept burning for a long time.
But that anger kept burning for a long time.
Forum Leader
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Wisconsin, USA
Posts: 16,945
Originally Posted by courage2
I never understand why people get in such a fuss about other people's recovery programs.
why does anyone care whether they're helpful for other people? I'm only interested in whether they're helpful for me.
What am I missing here?
why does anyone care whether they're helpful for other people? I'm only interested in whether they're helpful for me.
What am I missing here?
p***enger
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Location: NYC
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Originally Posted by JeffreyAK
When I was struggling to rack up even a few days at a time, I was angry that I felt compelled to participate in a program that was counter to some of my core beliefs, and angry that I was being told essentially, this is the only way out. It wasn't the only way out, fortunately. But that anger kept burning for a long time.
But that anger kept burning for a long time.p***enger
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Originally Posted by ScottFromWI
Everyone is different, and I think what you are missing is that you just need to accept that. Help where you can, and Live and let live so they say.
If I can rephrase for clarity now and get rid of extraneous stuff, here's all I was asking:
- Does anyone know of any non-anecdotal evidence that inpatient rehab is more successful than free peer support-based programs for helping alcoholics/addicts in general achieve sobriety for a long term (say, 1 year)?
- Do people think there any particular kinds of addiction or addicts who really need or are likely to profit inpatient rehab, and why? When is inpatient the best option?
Honestly, do y'all think I'm just trying to be provocative?
Trudgin
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 6,348
Originally Posted by courage2
When you think about it in retrospect, how much of the anger was due to something the program you were sent to did to you, how much was due to being told to do something you didn't agree with (not I think the fault of a particular program), and how much of it was your alcoholism looking for a fight?
Some go willing some have willingness thrust upon them = me.
When I started attending groups they told me I did not have to drink ever again. I heard - I do not get to drink ever again.
I was told in the first year don't make any radical changes - relationships, job, moving, finances etc......
Then I was told in order to stay sober I would have to change everything.
There were stupid sayings, weird acronyms, strange prayers and utterings.
Anger reached a new level for me. I am not sure I was ever as angry when I was drunk as I have been a few times in this my first year of sobriety. Friends tell me it's healing and recovery. I am still angry, and that really aggravates me.
I still like a good fight.........truth be told many of us here do. It's easy to put on our group or SR face. The tough part is outside in the real world. Dealing with the jerk at the bank or the clerk at the store.
C2 you are as real as it gets and I greatly respect that.........
keep coming back@!
p***enger
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Originally Posted by courage2
particular kinds of addiction or addicts who really need or are likely to profit inpatient rehab
Originally Posted by Flynbuy
I am still angry, and that really aggravates me....
Would you believe that in the last 24 hours I directly & stone sober told my husband I wanted him to do something for the first time in 32 years? I mean, he & I are floored! 32 years of not expressing emotion or desire. Unless I was really loaded. And I haven't gotten loaded in front of him in more than a decade.
Originally Posted by Flynbuy
C2 you are as real as it gets
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