Iconoclastic

I know the industry very well, I worked in it and I've been around it from 40 to 50 years. No matter what the recovery modality, the recidivism rate for alcoholics is over 90%.

In the early days, all one had to be was a sober AA member to be a rehab / treatment counselor, today most programs require a bachelor’s degree or master’s degree. Depending on the philosophy of the treatment program, past experience with addiction may be required or seen as beneficial.

The industry pads there numbers, it's a sales job. I have no doubt some are helped, but I also know that others remain abstinent for many years without any help, they just stop on there own.

Check out the precursor to AA, the Washingtonians, they had a recovery rate similar to today. Besides, AA history shows AA's Forward to the First Edition is exaggerated i.e. (100 men and women who have recovered) there was less that 100, more like 50 to 60 and one woman. Some evidence shows she committed suicide, but for sure she relapsed as others had.

Boleo

First of all, I am not suggestiing that none of the 90% who left AA never found sobrity.


Second of all, "Most" never do find log-term sobrity; inside or outside of AA. That is simply a natural fact. If you believe otherwise... I got the deed to a bridge you might be interested in buying.

Iconoclastic

Keep it in context. I didn't use the word / term "SOBRIETY", long term or otherwise. I use the word / term "ABSTINENCE. If you view some of my postings, I make the distinction between abstinence and sobriety.

Re: this issue, I follow David Stewart, MD from his book "thirst for freedom" he says, “Few people realize that sobriety is an action of insights and skills far beyond mere abstinence. Sobriety is a creative discipline in the art of freedom of growth and of love. To be yourself is to become yourself.”

I'm serious, I bought a property in New Hampshire that had a bridge, so in essence I bought a bridge :-) I also was born in Cambridge during WWII :-)

My recovery is based on bridging the symptom alcoholism with the problem ME. Without this bridge, I wouldn't have recovered.

fini

The service I've given and taken without payment has always been more precious to me

to me, too, courage.
but here's an interesting aside: seems some feel that "free" is likely not going to be as good as if they need to pay.
we noticed this at the LifeRing meetings...when we made clear that we as a meeting had costs for things like the room rental and would really encourage people to donate, they got, in general, more "invested" when they put money into it.
donating isn't equivalent to paying, of course.
just saying that sometimes putting money in might lead to more investment of effort or something similar.

for myself, i'd have been the ornery one where i'd make sure "it" failed if they promised me it wouyld work if i just paid them the big bucks and did a and b.
but that's beside the point.
and this entire post is slightly on a tangent.
interesting newly-opened treatment centre just opened here in BC yesterday: a "therapeutic community". clients, young adults from 18 to 30's stay for two years (yes, you read right), pay 5000 dollars (just over 200/month), all inclusive. get highschool and trades, learn "how to live" without drugs/alcohol....so yes, pay for it except much less than even their food would cost, never mind therapists, accommodation, education...room for 150 "students" (their terminology)

Boleo

I was not trying to start a debate about sobriety vs abstinence. I was simply questioning your statement

If you believe that "MOST" alcoholics who fail to find long-term sobriety/abstinence in AA or any other recovery program, eventually find it elsewhere, then you are obviously "fresh off the boat" about recovery in general.

I come from a long line of alcoholics. It was generally accepted that once one of our clan got hooked on booze, they would grow progressively worse right up until the day they died (typically in their early fifties). I am the first of several dozen in my family tree to find long-term sobriety/abstinence.

Not to mention, in Dr Jung's and Dr Silkworth's day, recovered alcoholics were almost unheard of.

Iconoclastic

You took my question out of context. You can't question a statement I didn't make, can't you see that?

Re: your Dr Jung's and Dr Silkworth's day comment, you're time fame is wrong, read history ala the Washingtonians.

Bill Wilson didn't originate anything; he even misinterpreted Silkworths allergy theory, which is scientifically incorrect.

Re: recovery, Wilson took some of the 12 Step structure verbatim from Sam Shoemaker of Oxford Movement. The “one alcoholic talking to another alcoholic” is attributed to Wilson, but he took that concept from Washingtonians a temperance movement that had a lot of success in the 19th Century.

Bill Wilson was trying to sell a book for profit, so he made it as attractive as he could so it would sell. There’s nothing wrong with making money, but there’s some exaggeration in the writing of the Alcoholics Anonymous text to make it attractive. He got royalties until he died. Read and cross-reference AA history, I have and still do occasionally, because I like to know what I’m talking about.

Kaneda8888

Hi Courage

I dont have any research on this but thought it was an interesting topic. One of my AA meetings is in an addiction centre. Majority of the patients are in for rehab. I've been attending this meeting for almost 2 years so I get to see the inpatients. It used to be mandatory for the rehab patients to attend but now its voluntary. Its only mandatory for the detox patients. When it was mandatory for both rehab and detox patients, the room was full to the brim. Once they made it voluntary for the rehab patients, the attendance dropped by more than 75%. I think that alone speaks volumes. Having said that, from the shares I have heard over those years, I am skeptical about rehab. Many of the patients have been to rehab multiple times. When they share, it is common to hear about how they immediately resume drinking after leaving rehab. I've seen the same folks turn up time and again in the rooms as inpatient for rehab. Its a bit disheartening. So, it boils down to motivation to stop drinking irrespective of paid or free.

neferkamichael

LBrain, it is the individual person in these groups that is addicted to a chemical substance. In this rehab you went to did they say if we don't cure you, you can have your money back. Everyone already knows the answer to that because if they would give your money back they would go out of business because most fail to stop using. Life is capitalism, big fish eat little fish, lions eat zebras, and humans eat it all. One of the tenants of capitalism is, "Let the buyer beware". Under capitalism everything is a commodity to be exchanged from some other commodity. There is a winner and a loser in every capitalistic transaction. I find capitalistic rehab disgusting.

Boleo

I apologize if I misquoted you or associated your name with someone else's quote. My tablet touchscreen does strange things that I have to repair manually and that does not always go well.

The quote that I was taking issue with was:

MelindaFlowers

Any rehab works if you work it. If you follow the directions and the program.

Heck, any diet works if you work it. You could go down to goodwill, pick up a weight loss/diet/exercise book from 1972 and it would work if you follow it. You could buy a VHS Jane Fonda jazzercise tape from 1987 and get a dancer's body if you did it every day.

Any programs works if you follow it!

I think the vast majority of the time people fail at the programs because they are not ready to quit drinking.

No rehab or program would have helped me stop drinking before June 27, 2014 because I still wanted to figure out a way to drink without negative consequences. I was not ready to stop drinking.

SR is my program and I work the hell out of it. I have logged thousands of hours on here since last June. Reading, posting, and hopefully helping a few others when I can.

JeffreyAK

Sorry, I'm coughing up my soda here.

By the way, the same IOP I went through claimed about a 20% death rate. Obviously that's among people who are in bad enough shape to feel they need an IOP, and be admitted to it (rather than be diverted to something less intensive). Pretty "sobering" to hear that one in 5 of the people in the room are likely to die from the consequences of their addiction, even if 4 out of 5 make it (40% through at least a year, 40% after one or more additional tries).

Having seen quite a lot, I truly believe that nearly everyone can stop drinking with the right support, and in fact most people with a drinking problem stop on their own and don't go nearly as far down the hole as I did. You might be surprised if you get out more and see what can work with even the worst addicts. It's not all gloom and doom.

Boleo

If you want to get pedantic with me, keep in mind I read 3 different books on the Washingtonians, and no where did it say "Washingtonians a temperance movement that had a lot of success in the 19th Century." In fact, their long-term success rate was no better that what most recovery programs have today. While there is no one smoking gun for what killed them, the fact that none of their founders could stay sober in the long-run was a major cause of their demise.

JeffreyAK

An interesting article on the topic of quitting from Stanton Peele, who I don't always agree with but who is spot-on with much of this: https://www.psychologytoday.com/arti...bout-addiction Most people, if they catch the problem early enough at least, can stop on their own without any "program" at all.

Boleo

Again you use the "Most" word in your statement. If you want to call 3 - 8 % "Most people", then I will buy what you say. However if you want to equate "Most" with more than half, I would call that a streeeeeeeeeeeeetch.

Iconoclastic

I can relate and believe as it is with me that you're practicing one of the major aspects of recovery which is as you shared "hopefully helping others" This follows the saying "you can't keep it unless you give it away. Helping others is giving it away, This has purpose. In AA, it's called "primary purpose."

Most fail at diets, because they remained obsessed with "diet" and / or they want a quick fix. So, they focus (obsess) on the symptom and not the problem, which is the emotional / mental causes and conditions for weight gain.

Many alcoholics and other drug addicts transfer their addiction to food, because they hadn't resolved their emotional / mental issues for their addiction to alcohol and / or other drugs.

My wife and I don't have a diet, never have. We also don't have issues with weight gain. In other words we don't DIET, we just eat good natural food whole (unprocessed) food, mostly organic the way food use to be when I was a kid (1940's). I have a background in nutrition, so I know what I'm eating, and how to eat, most people don't, especially in the USA. This is why the USA is near or at the top in the world for obesity, it's sad and its the #5 killer.

LBrain

I find capitalistic rehab disgusting myself. The only reason I went was to keep my job as I was 'ordered' to rehab or else. But a funny thing happened. When I was "cured" after, I was fired. Don't that beat all? They couldn't fire me because I was "sick", but as soon as I got better... BAM!
Fortunately, I'm still better - by my own choice.

fluffyflea

I believe in Alcoholics Anonymous. I 've been sober for 17 years on A.A. I never went to a re- hab and it seems that people who get on the re-hab merry go round seem to have a tougher time staying sober.

I find there is a lot of promotion now of Re-Habs and not enough promotion of Alcoholics Anonymous.

Boleo

Hank J. (famous open talk speaker) tells a tale of his getting fired shortly after getting sober. His defence was; "I show every day - on time. I complete all of my paperwork. I answer all of my phone calls. I stopped lying and making excuses for my bad behavior. I no longer swear at the staff... I don't get it, why are you firing me?"

His boss replied "You're a salesman and your customers liked you better when you were a booze hound like them."

courage2

I'm so glad this thread isn't about flaming against particular programs or otherwise getting the thread closed.

My personal favorite line: Some strands I'm seeing:

• For most alcoholics/addicts, recovery doesn't happen. They just get worse, sometimes slowly & sometimes quickly, until they die.
• For those who recover it looks like there's a consensus in the reports that have been posted that expensive inpatient doesn't have better recovery rates than cheaper alternatives. Do you agree with my reading of the literature that's been posted? (Of course, there may be some individual inpatients with better outcomes, but it's unlikely to be due to their programs -- if it were a better program, wouldn't everyone be adopting it? More likely, individual personnel or client selection.)
  
• Most of us seem to agree that "the readiness is all."

What do we know about that works patiently, continuously, at all hours of the day or night to help alcoholics and addicts who are still struggling in their disease reach a point of readiness?

JeffreyAK

There were figures in the link I posted, if you believe them (I don't know a reason not to) it's 73% who quit or otherwise end their addiction without help. Did you have some documentation to support your dismissive skepticism? Not every addict goes all the way down the rabbit hole, in fact few do. So most of the people who show up at meetings like AA and then disappear quit on their own, the rest either find help from other programs or eventually die.