desypete

this is the sort of stuff i hear in aa when people open up and be honest about themselves, its called the language of the heart and its more powerful than anything i have ever read, especially when the person is right in front of you in a meeting
thats what we all pick up on from the bull to an honest person

there is an old timer in aa that has lost her daughter just because her daughter will not for give her its very sad to hear as she has helped so many drunks over her years, including me i wish i had a magic wand at times in aa and i could put things right for people,just as i know people in aa would wish that had a magic wand to remove my own pain in life, but sadly its just how it is and we all have to try to live in the world with our crosses to bear and just plod on

sorry to hear of your ill health rob but thanks for being honest

jdooner

Is sharing with another human not that magic wand Desy? Don't we feel better when we talk honestly about our suffering? Strength in numbers? I think it's you who talks about working with another....I agree as part of the 12th step and the 5th part of step 10 that working with another is key to get us out of our own heads. To me this is a bit of a manic wand as you describe.

desypete

yes jd i believe in sharing from the heart as it really does free us up. the times i bared my soul in an aa meeting when i was full of hurt and anger and feel that calmness enter me afterwards is very hard to describe to anyone who doesn't do the same.

breaking that fear of being laughed at or what others thought about me was a huge thing i had to work on, as i much would rather be popular and liked etc so would spend time rehearsing what i would say in an aa meeting, if i had heard some new line of wisdom i would want to be the first one in aa who thought of it or brought it to the table, as i wanted the pats on the backs for being such a wonderful aa member

i simply dont live that way anymore thanks to many kicks up the backsides from people who could see right through me and see i was talking out of my backsides
how did they know this about me ?
simple as they had been like that themselves in recovery at one time, the old timers certainly might not look like there very good aa members to newer sober members but thats because they have learned how to live life daily in my eyes rather than the dream of how life would be or how they think it should be etc

one member sums it all up for me in one easy to remember sentence about aa

he said we get to the meetings share our shyte and go home, he came to that conclusion after being around such a long time and seeing how many people come into aa stay for a while and then go
so he says
enjoy your time in aa while it lasts and share your shyte and go home

i can not argue with that as it just seems so true : )

RobbyRobot

Well, with respect, it doesn't show me his 'level' of sobriety. I don't believe there is a useful measurement of someone else's sobriety when we compare against our own, or against others experiences. I do think we can measure a persons sobriety against their own experiences ie their life lived before they quit, and their life after having quit - the results of quitting speak best.

Boleo has as much right to express himself as he see's fit as do any of us, I reckon. Claiming Boleo is foolishly judging others as giving us insight into his sobriety requires an effort of judgment too against Boleo's sobriety. This is like the pot calling the kettle black, yeah?

I don't see all things as Boleo does. I don't see all things as you do either, Desy. Doesn't mean either one of your sobrieties are questionable when I examine my own experiences, to me anyways.

Boleo

My freedom from addiction is not dependent on EXTERNAL conditions. However, I must... Must... MUST... maintain my internal conditions using action... Action... ACTION... For me to say my freedom is not dependent on ANY conditions would be like saying I have got a "get out of jail free" card. What kind of message is that to send to a newcomer???

The anecdote about my sister is meant to represent the respect she has for people suffering from addiction. She does not pretend to know what they need nor does she troll web sites giving trite advice.

soberlicious

Is it?

You are assuming that "learning how to live happily" can be taught to others through a set of discrete skills. This is not "paint by numbers", boleo.

soberlicious

Haha!

Boleo

Some of us here (more like most of us here) recognize that there is some sort of process going on in recovery. We don't all agree on what that process is, but we mostly agree that it exists at some level.

You seem to have missed the elephant in the room.

soberlicious

A very powerful and effective one, so I've been told through PMs thanking me for my message. Freedom from addiction through permanent abstinence...how dare I spread such nonsense!!!

RobbyRobot

In my past work in rehab with addicts / alcoholics I facilitated many hundreds of therapy groups. Within such groups, boundaries are awesomely important. As leader, much of my responsibility was to bring real time awareness to the group how individual boundaries played within the larger dynamics of the group. Obviously, this means some groups were a breeze while others were tougher. People become protective. Trust issues are everywhere. Clicks band together. Emotions are played out. Fears are both hidden and openly displayed. Hope is in the air. Expectations are high. And so on and whatever. Its always a rainbow of orchestrated dynamics if one has the eyes to see and the ears to ear.

Part of my backstory in early sobriety: I was not too shabby as a counselor. I quickly rose to position of being a program director in my own right based solely on my abilities to facilitate group therapy with addicted street populations. The real hard cases bottom of the barrel clients. My peers. The position required a masters degree to fully satisfy, or relevant experience, although a bachelors would have sufficed. I didn't even have high school. I was hired on contract nonetheless with the agreement I would immediately make efforts to eventually attain a degree as early as possible. Along with my experiences, I as well had two years intensive training in residence under the supervision of a clinical psychologist. So, I have a lot to say, both experientially and with *opinion* on group dynamics in recovery environments I suppose. For the record, I unfortunately eventually had to disband the registered charity for other reasons which made the continuance of such an enterprise practically impossible.

Group dependency is a known dynamic felt by individuals. Herd mentality as well. Such dynamics cannot be eliminated without also throwing out the baby with the bath water as it were. Rather, these fight-or-flight dynamics are best re-directed back to each respective individual so as they can begin to take responsibility for their fear responses. This allows for a more detailed examination of individual boundaries, even of those who do not directly participate can be appreciated as adding to the dynamics by their mere presence.

To your questions: I believe alcoholism / sobriety can be worn as a badge of sorts when we reflect on how for many quitting drinking saved their lives from certain alcoholic ruination. Such ownership of others doesn't bother me unless they use it as a soapbox to lecture their virtues over those who eschew labels. For myself, my alcoholism is not an honorable experience. My sobriety probably is as I reflect on it now. But having said this, my sobriety is forever the other side of the coin of my alcoholism illness, and so as such, sobriety is in my life, and not my life. I don't live to be sober. There is much more to me than I am a sober alcoholic with decades of unbroken sobriety. I'm a real person with or without sobriety and with or without alcoholism. Alcoholism and sobriety are tools I make use of to further my journey. The journey is the thing for me, and always was and always will be no matter what else may or may not be experienced by me.

To the question of fear of being cast out of the group: Yes, I have witnessed certain personalities that cannot for whatever reason mitigate their fears of being alone, and for these individuals, almost any price is worth being included into the group. Unfortunately, such persons are often victimized by more aggressive individuals in the group. Such predatory dynamics need to be shut down quickly and effectively, else the whole group can become more of an additional problem than a workable therapeutic solution. Also unfortunately, not all group leaders are created equal, and they can't act on what they don't appreciate as happening, and so all too often un-responsible group recovery dynamics creates victims more than many in the field want to admit. Being from the street myself, I was able to stand toe to toe with the hardest abusers and more than a few times police would have to be called in to deal with the predators since I simply would not back down off my responsibilities. I have more than once personally disarmed drawn knives while working with clients. Such work is not for the unexperienced.

It goes without saying I believe group dynamics when properly facilitated work well in recovery models for those who want to work with their peers. For those who don't, not so much of course.

AA itself does not allow for such kinds of group encounters, even though off the record it happens nonetheless all the time in some private meetings and with in some sponsorship relationships. These kind of inexperienced scenarios usually cause more harm than good is my opinion when they happen ad hoc as circumstances play out.

Boleo

Has it ever occured to you that most of us here tried "permanent abstinence" as our first resort. That's why we identify as alcoholics. Because we simply can't stay stopped without help (or a program) of some kind. Your message may be very attractive to the newcomer, but thats because it looks easy. If easy really did the job... none of would be here (except you).

Again you missed the elephant in the room.

RobbyRobot

For you such a message that your freedom is NOT dependent on ANY conditions would be disingenuous of course. For others, who believe differently, their message is no less valid than your own.

I think the newcomer can well handle the message offered by Soberlicious as well as the message offered by you, Boleo. There is nothing in either approach to lasting sobriety which dismays me or otherwise leaves me uncomfortable.

Having said that, I am surprised how you seem to be talking to an individual and yet you are using generalities to make your points. I'm unsure as to your purpose, with all respect.

desypete

i agree with you that yes its a bit like the pot calling the kettle
however having been a prisoner in my time and after spending a good few years ruining prison meetings trying to help other guys come into aa rather than go back out drink again and end up back inside
i found his post giving an f grade to prison types a bit much

we have more than enough of that type of snobbery in the outside world to deal with than to have so called aa members grade us.

Boleo

Some say there is nothing more tragic than wasted potential. I abhor wasted potential.

RobbyRobot

Desy, I too have run prison meetings, and I can hear you clearly on how you would feel from Boleo's grade F. And for what its worth, I concur to a point. That point being although I don't agree with Boleo using a grade system, I think it speaks more to him personally than it does to the quality of his sobriety. In saying this, I'm not offering a criticism of Boleo. I'm offering how I share agreement in your being offended by his statements.

Boleo

Who else around here judges others messages???

Only difference is, it's D-students judging A-students. Is there a double standard that I don't know about?

RobbyRobot

So be it. Nothing wrong there. For myself, I see Soberlicious easily mastering her potential on many levels. I as well see her doing very well as a mentor for others who identify with her experiences. For me, I'm unconcerned for Soberlicious sobriety, or her message. I've had my arguments with her too. She is well experienced in holding her own, lol.

In any case, Boleo. I also respect and value you too, as you know. You have a very keen sense for high achievement and this makes you a good example as well for others.

desypete

oh i see your now a self appointed A student well i say no more really

except i figure others will grade you differently

just one question i do have as i notice somewere unless i am mistaken that you boast of attending prison meetings

why did you attend them ? and how many did you actually attend ? ok thats 2 questions : )

soberlicious

Who is we? Do you have a mouse in your pocket? Stop speaking for others.

My message is attractive because there is a large group of people who want to end their addiction to substances without developing a dependency on a group or a higher power. They do not want a lifetime label. I am here to say it can be done, if that is the road one chooses. I have done it and millions have done it before me. If you've read my posts for comprehension, you can see that I support positive change in any form.

Not sure where you conjured up "easy" from my journey. From your imagination I suppose, the same place the rest of your rhetoric originates. Which is fine. It's colorful and nice. I like it for you because it makes you happy.

Consider that "the elephant in the room" is possibly from your imagination too.

Boleo

You're right. Most addicts want to "DO' the bare minimum amount of sacrifice, work and self-appraisal to stay sober. That's the nature of addiction. In psychology terms, it's called using rationalization, justification, minimization and denial.

In Al-Anon, helping alcoholics hold on to that kind of delusional thinking is known as "Enabling".