soberlicious

Failing by who's account? and if one chooses to repeatedly fail, is that not their right?

Again, who actually does this? I have not seen the examples you're alluding to. I need to see the posts where members tell other members "Hey, stay fat and keep spending. No worries, man, you're sober". By the same token, unless someone asks for help in straightening out their lives, then telling them their life sucks is just unsolicited advice... aka criticism.

I think so too, but I also realize that not everyone thinks so. Some people are comfortable and perfectly happy with the status quo. I'm not going to say that another person hasn't had enough change or growth in their life. I mean, who's yardstick are we using here?

soberlicious

I have experience in quitting an addiction. I have also experienced a defining moment, a moment of clarity, which stands as a clear demarcation of "then" and "now". A powerful moment after which I will never be the same.

I'm still told repeatedly by boleo that because my experience was not spiritual in nature, then all that I share is "inexperience". I do not try to give an opinion of a spiritual awakening in the sense that I was touched by the supernatural, because I've had no such experience. I have, however, had myriad powerful experiences and growth opportunities over my life that provide a wealth of both success and failures that I can draw upon, and they go far beyond battling addiction. I share those with others and they share their powerful experiences with me. They need not be identical experiences for each of us to gain from the exchange. Those kind of interactions matter. They are valuable.

Soberpotamus

I really don't know how to approach this sort of question. I do understand the question.

I'm tempted to say... hey, my story is my story, you know? How I tell it is up to me. Well, of course it is. Simple answer.

I think you are saying (or asking) there's a responsibility we have in telling our backstory adequately, appropriately (within the contexts), authentically, etc.

Also, I'd like to point out that the story may even evolve over time... not because the story changes, but because with sobriety we gain clarity. I continue to view my own backstory a little differently as I go on. Appreciating things I didn't before, seeing things were worse off in ways than I'd originally assumed, and conversely... seeing where I didn't have it as bad as I'd thought.

Anyway... that's all I will say on this for now.

Good points raised on backstory.

Soberpotamus

Ah... I think I understand the question more now. One person's backstory may involve a lot more experience in life than another person, maybe one got sober in their 20's... the other, in their 40's or 50's. Or a person's childhood may qualify them in a different way than a person who had a nice childhood.

But they both get sober, both recover. Does one offer more than the other in terms of sharing backstory and experience?

Is that what you are getting at, Robby?

Boleo

Sometimes I see a modicum of "experience" in your shares and would not be surprised if it just the tip of an iceburg. That being said, what I don't see in your shares is an ability to articulate your experience. I suspect it is due to your aversion to meet with other alcoholics in f2f meetings or your failure to read literature about spiritual based recovery. Either way, it amounts to lack of germane "experience".


"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which can not fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance-that principle is contempt prior to investigation."
-- WILLIAM PAYLEY

desypete

when i was 18 i contacted aa as i was in trouble with my drinking this was some 34 years ago
the chap came out to see me and offered to take me to a meeting but i thought he was a boring old fart and wasnt telling me how i could drink and not get into trouble

he was talking rubbish in my mind as i clearly hadnt suffered enough with the drink to listen to him

if only i would of stuck with that man i would be 34 years sober today instead of 10 but more importantly my trail of destruction i had to go on wouldnt of been the way it was i would of changed my future for the good.
the chap who 12th step me when i was 18 is still around in aa i see him often and i always look at him and remind myself of how things could of been so so different

now does sharing that experience change anything ? no not for me but it might change someone else path in life and also i can use my own young age to talk to the younger ones today who think there to young to be in aa
so experience does help in many many ways

soberlicious

*yawn*
You are so predictable.

You (and others like you) make many assumptions based on your opinions. You then make statements as if they are fact. I think this is part of what Robby what talking about in the OP.

I don't know how you came to believe that you are in any position to judge others' experiences or the quality of their lives, but you are misguided. You might consider sticking to just speaking about your experience and leaving the whole ridiculous practice of grading other adults out. It makes you look like you have giant ego.

I understand this thread to be about experience in quitting an addiction and living the kind of life you want to live. Robby, correct me if I'm wrong here. I did not understand this thread to be only about spiritual experiences.

RobbyRobot

Your understanding is correct, Soberlicious. Spiritual experiences don't have more nor less importance than unlabeled or otherwise undefined life experiences in this thread anyways.

soberlicious

Robby,I found this to be very interesting. This is exactly what happened with James Frey, isn't it? This is one of the problems I see with group dynamics in recovery circles. The need to fit in, even to the point of fabricating stories. I know people for whom "recovering alcoholic" has become their sole identity...and they will go to any lengths to maintain that.
Why is that? Does group dependency create a sort of fear that if one were to be cast out, they would drink and die? Is the alcoholic label a badge of honor for some? Food for thought.

Boleo

The OP was about first hand experience vs book knowledge, philosophizing or vicarious learning.

I have the following first hand experience;

Failure to get sober for 3 years using dozens of different programs (the first of which was RR).
Failure to get sober for 2 years by attending 10 - 30 fellowship meetings per week.
Failure to get sober for 1 year while working with 6 of the best sponsors I could find within a 50 mile radius.
Failure to lose the obsession to drink for 5 months in rehab.
Talking f2f with hundreds of good-old-timers.
Co-sponsoring dozens of active alcoholics.
Talking to hundreds of potential sponcees at coffee shops and restaurants.
Giving talks at rehabs and prisons.
Attending dozens of funerals of alcohol victims.
Driving hundreds of alcoholics to/from meetings, rehabs, hospitals & jails.

So, how much "experience" do you have in these activities?

dwtbd

I quit drinking hundreds of times, this last time included a sincere desire to become a non drinker. Prior to to that decision I did not give much thought to 'sobriety' as a concept , and especially none concerning a 'lifestyle'. I still do not have a good grasp of it as concept except as a 'recovery' word. Does this mean I have no experience of sobriety( I do not mean the question in a smartassy way).

soberlicious

Your point?

You have experience with things. Others have experience with things. Some are strictly yours, some are theirs, and some are shared. Like a you/me/us sort of thing. Even my third grade students can understand a venn diagram, and they can also understand that no part of the diagram is superior to other parts. The content is observable, that's all.

That is what some people believe. If your experience does not match theirs, then it is not valid, or otherwise less than.

jdooner

.

Boleo

My point is - my opinions are backed up with real life first hand experiences. All those years I piled up before having a Spiritual Awakening are not germane experience. They were a collection of opinions about experiences that I had not yet had.

I interpreted the OP as proposing the idea that "opinion with experience", is somehow more substantial than "opinion without experience". Robby, correct me if I'm wrong.

RobbyRobot

I believe people have right of choice to fail, as long as they accept the lawful consequences and moral responsibilities for those same failures as a member of society. For instance, how far can a parent fail a child before we protect the child's rights? How incompetent can a professional become before we protect the rights of clients? Its a slippery slope requiring certain parameters and boundaries otherwise the whole thing goes sideways, yeah?

I don't have posts to offer up, Soberlicious. Like I mentioned early, I'm sharing my observations of my take, my perspective, my feelings for the meaning I'm taking in of whatever posts. For example, there are those types who just quit, and when things go sideways for whatever reason, these same types have an understanding that as long as they don't drink they are good to go no matter the dire consequences they are facing from their life going sideways. If and when they struggle with eventual relapse, and still see themselves as just having another bump on the road and so on and whatever I become concerned they are actually in dire straits.

My take on "these types" [I hate to use such label wording] is that simply telling them its all good as long as they quit is not really doing them a favor. I believe a more careful self-examination creates more opportunity for healthier and progressive choices so as to sustain a lasting quit.

Even if the help is unsolicited, this itself doesn't mean the help is invalid, or the opportunity wasted by the refusal of the offer, yeah?

For the persons who are perfectly happy with the status quo, I'm all for supporting their happiness. For those who themselves claim their unhappiness, I'm all for changing up their game, as required, to achieve a place where they too are happy with whatever level works for them personally on an individual level. So its their own yardstick we use when we help others recover their lives, or move on progressively forwards from their quit.

soberlicious

So, if I am to understand boleo correctly, then only works directly related to other alcoholics are what keep one sober. If you have not gone to a jail or many coffee shops to spread your wisdom, then you have none? You are not really sober? Your life does not have quality?

I don't separate "sobriety" from "my life". They are not separate. Any actions that are toward the greater good are of benefit to me and to others. The greater good can be as small as my family, and extend out to my community. I have, in fact, done lots of volunteer work in my life in many areas (adult literacy, public library programs, special education programs) and although I get paid for it, I have also chosen a lifetime career as a public servant that extends way beyond my contracted hours. Why? because I believe in the power of human service.

but just because you do what you do, and I do what I do, doesn't mean either one of us is more or better recovered than anyone else. People needn't do any of that to build a quality life that suits them.

awuh1

That's great for starters freshstart! Who is saying "you create your own reality" Where did that come from? From you? lol


Again, you do not seem to be familiar enough with the material. In some interpretations (e.g. Copenhagen) a conscious observer is not specified. In other interpretations (e.g.von Neumann/Wigner) consciousness is specifically specified.

At the risk of being labeled sensationalistic, I suggest you familiarize yourself with the different interpretations for a basic overview. You might then be less inclined to assert what observer effect "means". This is a short list (from Wikipedia).

1 Classification adopted by Einstein
2 The Copenhagen interpretation
3 Many worlds
4 Consistent histories
5 Ensemble interpretation, or statistical interpretation
6 de Broglie–Bohm theory
7 Relational quantum mechanics
8 Transactional interpretation
9 Stochastic mechanics
10 Objective collapse theories
11 von Neumann/Wigner interpretation: consciousness causes the collapse
12 Many minds
13 Quantum logic
14 Quantum information theories
15 Modal interpretations of quantum theory
16 Time-symmetric theories
17 Branching space–time theories

(I take it that #3 is not your favorite. It's not mine either. The video was not being sensationalistic by presenting it. Although easily ridiculed, the many worlds interpretation is considered legitimate and is often referred to, though it's a little hard for me to understand how it is gaining in popularity .)

You keep referring to "what science is telling us is true". What science is telling us is true is what we observe as a result of carefully constructed and controlled experiments. This is about as meaningful as saying 'I see what I see'. To which I would respond, "so what"?

What is also needed is to make sense of those same observations. This requires interpretation (e.g. the 17 theories above). Both observation and paradigm are required for understanding.

But don't fool yourself. Making an interpretation does not make it true.

RobbyRobot

Your quit experience, and everything following your initial quit is as valid as anyone else, dwtbd.

Interestingly, when I finally quit, I couldn't have cared less about what sobriety was or wasn't and as for lifestyle, hahaha, I was grateful I wasn't dead. As time went on, measured in months and years, I recovered my life.

Sobriety is not a program, or a technique. Programs and techniques are tools. Sobriety is generally how we go about living our lives without addiction still screwing it up. As you can imagine, there are as many experiences with what constitutes sobriety as there are individuals.

Results make all the difference as we compare are user lives with our sober lives. This comparison begins to define the value of our sobriety.

PurpleKnight

I think the longer a person is Sober, the common theme that many people at some stage realise is that a new lifestyle is required to make any long term headway, simply eliminating alcohol and carrying on with life is a tough ask, and definitely many realise that doing it on their own is near impossible, some sort of support is required, what that is differs for everyone, but it is another common theme within longterm Sobriety.

So that brings us back to the sharing of experience, until the "penny drops" and these 2 aspects of recovery are realised, advice can be lacking, but then again there aren't too many people giving advice in their first week of Sobriety, so what tends to happen in threads is a mixture of appropriate encouragement and advice amongst those with varying lengths of Sobriety, the monthly class threads for example provide invaluable encouragement and support for those facing the same struggles at the same time, with those with longer periods of Sobriety dropping in occasionally with experience based advice as needed.

The strength of a Forum like SR is the variation of experience over a range of different Sobriety periods, there's always something to meet the needs of posters, whether it be the experienced 10yr Sobriety of a person with much wisdom to share, or the newfound zeal and energy of the newcomer, and everything else in between.

soberlicious

Yes, I understand and I agree. It's not all good if the poster is clearly saying it's not all good. Many poster will reject anything other than "it's all good" as tough love though. So there's that.

Well, obviously something sparked this topic for you...

Well, uh...hate to point out that this is totally common sense. I think that's what people are doing here. All the time...

Of course not. SR would not exist in the absence of these types of reciprocal exchanges. That's not the kind of exchange I was getting at.