Experiential Learning vs Opinion
Adventures In SpaceTime
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Originally Posted by Boleo 
I interpreted the OP as proposing the idea that "opinion with experience", is somehow more substantial than "opinion without experience". Robby, correct me if I'm wrong.
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Originally Posted by boleo
My point is - my opinions are backed up with real life first hand experiences.
Opinions without experience...I hear them, but pretty infrequently. My brother-in-law once said "childbirth is not really that painful."
Please, if you are able, point out to me where I have given an opinion without having any experience on which to base that opinion. I eagerly await your response, boleo.
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Originally Posted by SoberJennie
Ah... I think I understand the question more now. One person's backstory may involve a lot more experience in life than another person, maybe one got sober in their 20's... the other, in their 40's or 50's. Or a person's childhood may qualify them in a different way than a person who had a nice childhood.
But they both get sober, both recover. Does one offer more than the other in terms of sharing backstory and experience?
Is that what you are getting at, Robby?
But they both get sober, both recover. Does one offer more than the other in terms of sharing backstory and experience?
Is that what you are getting at, Robby?
It is amazing to me how one person can say so little about such and such, and yet another can offer so much about relatively the same experience. What makes the difference? One idea I keep returning to is the depth of their backstory, and how that same backstory is shared. There are of course a myriad of possible reasons...Some kids have a lifetime of experiences before they are yet out of adolescence.
I'm such a kid. Or was looking back.
Its obvious enough to me I'm still growing up even at 57.
Laozi Old Man
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Please, if you are able, point out to me where I have given an opinion without having any experience on which to base that opinion. I eagerly await your response, boleo.
My interpretation of that is;
I believe nothing to stay sober
I do nothing to stay sober
I practice no program to stay sober
I need no ones help to stay sober
I need help no one to stay sober
How is that kind of "experience" different than lethargy?
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Originally Posted by soberlicious
So, if I am to understand boleo correctly, then only works directly related to other alcoholics are what keep one sober. If you have not gone to a jail or many coffee shops to spread your wisdom, then you have none? You are not really sober? Your life does not have quality?
I don't separate "sobriety" from "my life". They are not separate. Any actions that are toward the greater good are of benefit to me and to others. The greater good can be as small as my family, and extend out to my community. I have, in fact, done lots of volunteer work in my life in many areas (adult literacy, public library programs, special education programs) and although I get paid for it, I have also chosen a lifetime career as a public servant that extends way beyond my contracted hours. Why? because I believe in the power of human service.
but just because you do what you do, and I do what I do, doesn't mean either one of us is more or better recovered than anyone else. People needn't do any of that to build a quality life that suits them.
I don't separate "sobriety" from "my life". They are not separate. Any actions that are toward the greater good are of benefit to me and to others. The greater good can be as small as my family, and extend out to my community. I have, in fact, done lots of volunteer work in my life in many areas (adult literacy, public library programs, special education programs) and although I get paid for it, I have also chosen a lifetime career as a public servant that extends way beyond my contracted hours. Why? because I believe in the power of human service.
but just because you do what you do, and I do what I do, doesn't mean either one of us is more or better recovered than anyone else. People needn't do any of that to build a quality life that suits them.
I don't know about understanding Boleo, lol, but I don't agree that only works related to other alcoholics are what keep one sober. Certainly not. I'm unsure what boleo is affirming actually.
In any case, what I have bolded above in your post rocks as well as anything else as an essential aid to your sobriety and life is my opinion.
For me, since I have alcoholism, I do separate my sobriety from my larger life. You don't have alcoholism, and so it makes good sense how you appreciate your life and sobriety as one and the same. When I say you don't have alcoholism, this in no way suggests I'm as well saying your not, or was not, a real alcoholic. Well, you know what I mean. Even though I'm one who experiences his alcoholism as an illness, I mean you do not experience your alcoholism as an illness. My take on your experiences is when you quit, so did your alcoholism, if you will, it stopped as well, and is now completely history. Your past drinking troubles are not attached to you present life challenges, whatever they may be. Correct me if I'm wrong?
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Originally Posted by soberlicious
Yes, I understand and I agree. It's not all good if the poster is clearly saying it's not all good. Many poster will reject anything other than "it's all good" as tough love though. So there's that.
Well, obviously something sparked this topic for you...
Well, uh...hate to point out that this is totally common sense. I think that's what people are doing here. All the time...
Of course not. SR would not exist in the absence of these types of reciprocal exchanges. That's not the kind of exchange I was getting at.
Well, obviously something sparked this topic for you...
Well, uh...hate to point out that this is totally common sense. I think that's what people are doing here. All the time...
Of course not. SR would not exist in the absence of these types of reciprocal exchanges. That's not the kind of exchange I was getting at.
Its more about my deteriorating health and my disinterest in my declining status. As well, its about my adult daughter and her new disinterest in me. 2014 is the year that wasn't for me. I'm being haunted by old ghosts. Its all internally generated by external situations and events that are relative to some of my greatest challenges as a kid. Its ironic how knowledge alone doesn't help me in this current challenge. I'm a strong guy, and yet I often enough find myself weeping without an actual cause - its more from a sudden insight or from a sudden connection from back when to present times. The weeping is extremely sad and overwhelming. At first I resisted the waves, and this only caused an eventual waterfall of emotions. Now I nursemaid my way forward, carefully choosing awareness over denial. This has proved to be helpful.
Well, I've already said too much. However, for me quality of life is everything, and ascertaining what is quality is itself a joyful pursuit for me. I suppose this thread will eventually have more of an impact on me than I had first imagined, lol.
Common sense. What a concept, hahaha.
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Originally Posted by RobbyRobot
I'm being haunted by old ghosts.
I'm very sorry to hear about your health decline, and your daughter situation. Wishing the best for you! And the mindfulness and serenity to deal with whatever comes your way.
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I got a sister who made a decision to quit drinking 40+ years ago. Never went to a meeting. Never claimed to be an alcoholic. Never admitted she was powerless. Never worked any kind of program.
She does a lot of good deeds for her community. She would probably say her sober life is not separate from her every day life.
However, if you were to ask her what her experience is with alcoholism or recovery. I am pretty sure her answer would be "None what so ever."
She does a lot of good deeds for her community. She would probably say her sober life is not separate from her every day life.
However, if you were to ask her what her experience is with alcoholism or recovery. I am pretty sure her answer would be "None what so ever."
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Originally Posted by Boleo
Did you not say "My sobriety is not contingent on anything"?
My interpretation of that is;
I believe nothing to stay sober
I do nothing to stay sober
I practice no program to stay sober
I need no ones help to stay sober
I need help no one to stay sober
How is that kind of "experience" different than lethargy?
My interpretation of that is;
I believe nothing to stay sober
I do nothing to stay sober
I practice no program to stay sober
I need no ones help to stay sober
I need help no one to stay sober
How is that kind of "experience" different than lethargy?
Adventures In SpaceTime
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Originally Posted by Boleo
I got a sister who made a decision to quit drinking 40+ years ago. Never went to a meeting. Never claimed to be an alcoholic. Never admitted she was powerless. Never worked any kind of program.
She does a lot of good deeds for her community. She would probably say her sober life is not separate from her every day life.
However, if you were to ask her what her experience is with alcoholism or recovery. I am pretty sure her answer would be "None what so ever."
She does a lot of good deeds for her community. She would probably say her sober life is not separate from her every day life.
However, if you were to ask her what her experience is with alcoholism or recovery. I am pretty sure her answer would be "None what so ever."
Your sister has made an individual choice. Others do as much with their choices as individuals relative to their present lifestyle no doubt. I don't see how your sisters post-quit experiences are directly comparable with someone elses?
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Originally Posted by Boleo
The OP was about first hand experience vs book knowledge, philosophizing or vicarious learning.
I have the following first hand experience;
Failure to get sober for 3 years using dozens of different programs (the first of which was RR).
Failure to get sober for 2 years by attending 10 - 30 fellowship meetings per week.
Failure to get sober for 1 year while working with 6 of the best sponsors I could find within a 50 mile radius.
Failure to lose the obsession to drink for 5 months in rehab.
Talking f2f with hundreds of good-old-timers.
Co-sponsoring dozens of active alcoholics.
Talking to hundreds of potential sponcees at coffee shops and restaurants.
Giving talks at rehabs and prisons.
Attending dozens of funerals of alcohol victims.
Driving hundreds of alcoholics to/from meetings, rehabs, hospitals & jails.
So, how much "experience" do you have in these activities?
I have the following first hand experience;
Failure to get sober for 3 years using dozens of different programs (the first of which was RR).
Failure to get sober for 2 years by attending 10 - 30 fellowship meetings per week.
Failure to get sober for 1 year while working with 6 of the best sponsors I could find within a 50 mile radius.
Failure to lose the obsession to drink for 5 months in rehab.
Talking f2f with hundreds of good-old-timers.
Co-sponsoring dozens of active alcoholics.
Talking to hundreds of potential sponcees at coffee shops and restaurants.
Giving talks at rehabs and prisons.
Attending dozens of funerals of alcohol victims.
Driving hundreds of alcoholics to/from meetings, rehabs, hospitals & jails.
So, how much "experience" do you have in these activities?
Laozi Old Man
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I am not seeing how lethargy explains your interpretation. I'm thinking since sobriety and life are one and the same for Soberlicious, I can make sense of how her sobriety is not contingent as normally understood as say for example how my sobriety is indeed contingent on my living a spiritual life.
However, how does anyone go about communicating that sort of ineffable experience to another human being. Just as faith without works is dead, experience without language to describe it is equally dead. Like the musician who masters an instrument, playing it only through headphones is selfish.
Most of us in recovery do a lot of fellowship and research to pass our experience on in words common to recovery. The only excuse to do less than that is lethargy.
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Well said, Boleo. And yet, I don't believe Soberlicious is actually "in recovery" yeah?
What you say about the ineffable experience is interesting. How does one do so? And how does one hear as much from another without comparing our own?
I see some challenges with remaining impartial on both sides of the conversation with such experiences speaking for myself. I do though already understand that not all such ineffable experiences are required in essence to be spiritual or supernatural.
What you say about the ineffable experience is interesting. How does one do so? And how does one hear as much from another without comparing our own?
I see some challenges with remaining impartial on both sides of the conversation with such experiences speaking for myself. I do though already understand that not all such ineffable experiences are required in essence to be spiritual or supernatural.
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Robby....this 'I'm a strong guy, but often find myself weeping without an actual cause' Although in this same post you go on to attribute those tears to particular circumstances in and of your life, and from what you describe, circumstances that may cause any one of us to feel sad, perhaps disillusioned or disappointed in some way, what this reminded me of, is this, which since reading, I have re-read several hundreds of times, as it is so resonant in my my life right now....here goes...
I wasn't capable of verbally transmitting my inner truth, and that's why it had to come out of my eyes, rather than out of my mouth. There is another way of knowing reality, besides the merely cerebral. We can 'know' with our body, our intuition, and now we have scientific evidence that the heart does 'know' real information'
That's from Richard Rohr's simplicity, the freedom of letting go. Have followed the contributions to this thread you've started on and off all day today, and (ta-da :-)) the simple answer to your question of experiential learning over opinion is that I don't know. I remain entirely unclear about the validity or value of one over the other. Within that not knowing, am including the human capacity for imagination, creativity, artifice, and probably the fickleness and fleeting nature of much of what I at least think and feel
An example...recently, I have noticed myself starting a sentence, let's say in a work situation I have previously experienced, with the absolute certainty I am 'right' only to hear myself, 10 or so words in, beginning to wonder 'am I right though?!' An opinion, based on experience it may be, but it's usefulness really depends on how present I am to the situation, whether my contribution is one of disinterested helpfulness, or whether I am grinding an axe....
And for some reason, this entire thread is making me think of the Tao of Pooh....in his pu state, where actually, experience or opinion, it's of no matter, he's not being weighed down by it either way :-)
Fabulous topic. Thanks for sharing
I wasn't capable of verbally transmitting my inner truth, and that's why it had to come out of my eyes, rather than out of my mouth. There is another way of knowing reality, besides the merely cerebral. We can 'know' with our body, our intuition, and now we have scientific evidence that the heart does 'know' real information'
That's from Richard Rohr's simplicity, the freedom of letting go. Have followed the contributions to this thread you've started on and off all day today, and (ta-da :-)) the simple answer to your question of experiential learning over opinion is that I don't know. I remain entirely unclear about the validity or value of one over the other. Within that not knowing, am including the human capacity for imagination, creativity, artifice, and probably the fickleness and fleeting nature of much of what I at least think and feel
An example...recently, I have noticed myself starting a sentence, let's say in a work situation I have previously experienced, with the absolute certainty I am 'right' only to hear myself, 10 or so words in, beginning to wonder 'am I right though?!' An opinion, based on experience it may be, but it's usefulness really depends on how present I am to the situation, whether my contribution is one of disinterested helpfulness, or whether I am grinding an axe....
And for some reason, this entire thread is making me think of the Tao of Pooh....in his pu state, where actually, experience or opinion, it's of no matter, he's not being weighed down by it either way :-)
Fabulous topic. Thanks for sharing
Laozi Old Man
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What you say about the ineffable experience is interesting. How does one do so? And how does one hear as much from another without comparing our own?
If it had not been for my relentless search for recovery language and vernacular, I would probably not be able to share that experience today. It was my experience with fellowship that cracked the obstacle for me. I only talked about it after gaining the nomenclature to describe it. I always do my homework first before engaging in debates such as this.
As far as "ineffable" subjects go, I find that Eastern religion and philosophy has helped me a lot with that. Thanks to Web resources such as Wikipedia, I can use esoteric terms that even neophytes can look up in seconds.
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Yeah, the WWW has really made a lot of progress in levelling the playing field for lively participation for so many of us. Such a resource! Akin to how the movable type printing press (Gutenberg) eventually changed the world. The internet as well is furthering the democratization of knowledge. Isn't science wonderful?
I also meant to share how I too had early fears on the sharing of my spiritual experiences, and how a commonality found within my AA experiences and rehab enabled me to see my fears were groundless.
Nowadays I just play my cards closer to my heart.
I also meant to share how I too had early fears on the sharing of my spiritual experiences, and how a commonality found within my AA experiences and rehab enabled me to see my fears were groundless.
Nowadays I just play my cards closer to my heart.
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Such lively discussion while I was at hot yoga!
Well, most of this is correct, so I give you a C+ for effort. 
You're correct. I do not drink under any circumstance.
If my beliefs change, I don't drink.
If I don't grow, I still don't drink.
If my program somehow dissolves, I still don't drink.
If all others desert me, I still don't drink.
If no one needs my help ever, I still don't drink.
My freedom from addiction is not dependent on conditions being just so. If it was, that would make it quite tenuous and I don't want that because only through permanent abstinence can I live the way I want to live.
You also confuse enjoying and needing. I enjoy having beliefs that bring me strength and I enjoy having others to lean on. I enjoy being someone to lean on as well. But I don't need any of those things to be sober. There are no requirements that must be met or else I will cave and drink. If all of those things suddenly disappeared, I still would not drink. It's that way for me on purpose because that is what brings me peace.
As far as your sister, what your anecdote says to me is that she chooses not to frame and label her life experiences the same way you do. That's all it says to me. I can't see any profound conclusion to be drawn from it.
Originally Posted by boleo
Did you not say "My sobriety is not contingent on anything"?
My interpretation of that is;
I believe nothing to stay sober
I do nothing to stay sober
I practice no program to stay sober
I need no ones help to stay sober
I need help no one to stay sober
How is that kind of "experience" different than lethargy?
My interpretation of that is;
I believe nothing to stay sober
I do nothing to stay sober
I practice no program to stay sober
I need no ones help to stay sober
I need help no one to stay sober
How is that kind of "experience" different than lethargy?
You're correct. I do not drink under any circumstance. If my beliefs change, I don't drink.
If I don't grow, I still don't drink.
If my program somehow dissolves, I still don't drink.
If all others desert me, I still don't drink.
If no one needs my help ever, I still don't drink.
My freedom from addiction is not dependent on conditions being just so. If it was, that would make it quite tenuous and I don't want that because only through permanent abstinence can I live the way I want to live.
You also confuse enjoying and needing. I enjoy having beliefs that bring me strength and I enjoy having others to lean on. I enjoy being someone to lean on as well. But I don't need any of those things to be sober. There are no requirements that must be met or else I will cave and drink. If all of those things suddenly disappeared, I still would not drink. It's that way for me on purpose because that is what brings me peace.
As far as your sister, what your anecdote says to me is that she chooses not to frame and label her life experiences the same way you do. That's all it says to me. I can't see any profound conclusion to be drawn from it.
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Originally Posted by Boleo
The OP was about first hand experience vs book knowledge, philosophizing or vicarious learning.
I have the following first hand experience;
Failure to get sober for 3 years using dozens of different programs (the first of which was RR).
Failure to get sober for 2 years by attending 10 - 30 fellowship meetings per week.
Failure to get sober for 1 year while working with 6 of the best sponsors I could find within a 50 mile radius.
Failure to lose the obsession to drink for 5 months in rehab.
Talking f2f with hundreds of good-old-timers.
Co-sponsoring dozens of active alcoholics.
Talking to hundreds of potential sponcees at coffee shops and restaurants.
Giving talks at rehabs and prisons.
Attending dozens of funerals of alcohol victims.
Driving hundreds of alcoholics to/from meetings, rehabs, hospitals & jails.
So, how much "experience" do you have in these activities?
I have the following first hand experience;
Failure to get sober for 3 years using dozens of different programs (the first of which was RR).
Failure to get sober for 2 years by attending 10 - 30 fellowship meetings per week.
Failure to get sober for 1 year while working with 6 of the best sponsors I could find within a 50 mile radius.
Failure to lose the obsession to drink for 5 months in rehab.
Talking f2f with hundreds of good-old-timers.
Co-sponsoring dozens of active alcoholics.
Talking to hundreds of potential sponcees at coffee shops and restaurants.
Giving talks at rehabs and prisons.
Attending dozens of funerals of alcohol victims.
Driving hundreds of alcoholics to/from meetings, rehabs, hospitals & jails.
So, how much "experience" do you have in these activities?
nothing that works for you would work for me and this is the point your missing as you think that what works for you is the key for it working for everyone else
so you end up judging people by your own way of getting sober and of course you must be right on this : )
now i am aa through and through but i dont tell people that they must do it this way i just want people to come to aa and find there own path
i am not interested in controlling anyone. nor grading anyone
thats your biggest mistake you made was that post giving grades about others as it shows us all your own level of sobriety
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Originally Posted by Boleo
I got a sister who made a decision to quit drinking 40+ years ago. Never went to a meeting. Never claimed to be an alcoholic. Never admitted she was powerless. Never worked any kind of program.
She does a lot of good deeds for her community. She would probably say her sober life is not separate from her every day life.
However, if you were to ask her what her experience is with alcoholism or recovery. I am pretty sure her answer would be "None what so ever."
She does a lot of good deeds for her community. She would probably say her sober life is not separate from her every day life.
However, if you were to ask her what her experience is with alcoholism or recovery. I am pretty sure her answer would be "None what so ever."
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