Gargery

I have. I've cursorily investigated the options, but I live in a rather small city so they are limited. I've been in therapy for several periods, but always in some other context, like when I was a kid (I displayed some behavior others found bizarre and troubling), as a couple etc. I've spoken with a family friend, a retired psychologist familiar with my case, but she wasn't very helpful. She seemed to think that I would be better off with a substance abuse counselor, but I could tell by her manner that this wasn't something she had considered before.

I know I never want to drink again. I'm done with it. I think I'm just going to take a break from the inventory for a week or two and try it again with fresh eyes. I'll just have to do the best I can, though most of the stuff I come up with seems pretty insignificant to me: my "fears" are just a list of things I'd rather not happen, like car trouble or pests in the garden or cancer. My "resentments"are just a list of things I don't like: loud motorcycles, rival sports teams, my neighbors' parking habits, certain political activism etc. There are other steps that have me at a loss as well (how could I possibly recall all the people I've wronged, often unintentionally. I upset people close to me all the time, and almost never realize it. It just doesn't seem like a big deal.) but I'll cross that bridge when I get there.

For now, I'm strong. I'm actually looking forward to the 8:00 meeting in an hour. One more day of sobriety nearly in the books.

SunnyMe

Gargery, welcome and huge kudos for your honesty.

I know someone who self-identifies as a sociopath in the program here. He's shared a similar struggle with the 4th and 5th steps. He shares that he did the 4th step to the best of his ability, as honestly as he could (which is all any of us can do, really). He needed a lot of help from his sponsor (a really smart old-timer) in identifying his wrong actions and reactions.

He's been sober six years this week, so it must be working for him.

Best of luck to you! I'm rooting for you!

Gargery

That is damned fine news indeed. Thank you.

tomsteve

"I'm REALLY good at lying to people, telling them what they want to hear, using their own expectations and emotions to manipulate them. I have no doubt I could come up with a list of fears and resentments that would have my sponsor eating out of my hand in a few minutes, but what's the point?"

you WERE good at lying to people, but AA is the largest old bullshi**ers club in the world. if yer sponsors good, he will see right through your BS and call ya on it. and I will bet dollars to donuts you weren't as manipulative or good at lying as ya think. ya prolly had a lot of people in your past see right through you.

that fake it til ya make it thing:prolly the greatest thing I don't like hearing. I don't see how rigorous honesty and fakin it can work together and Im willing to bet dollars to donuts that it didn't work as good as you perceive.
if ya want what yer sponsor has( and I hope its not the inability to know BS when he hears it) then yer gonna do what he says.

since you don't have a HP, theres really no need for ya to be lookin at step 4. the steps are numbered for a reason and works best when followed in numerical order.

ya ought to print your posts out and give them to your sponsor.

Gargery

Heh heh. Why do you think I strategically larded my comments with compliments toward him? I think ahead, sucka!

RobbyRobot

Manipulation of others for self-gratification is of limited value, is my experience. Eventually what goes around comes around, and denial doesn't make it less so, in fact confusion works both sides of the manipulation games being played. There are no winners in such scenarios.

Gargery

This is getting afield of recovery, but I think the reason why so many folks with ASPD develop other, sometimes darker, sometimes violent pathologies is because of the lies we tell. Lies are corrosive, not merely to personal relationships, but to the person who tells them. I probably lie to myself more than I do to other people, and I'm very easy to fool. I even believe some of the lies I tell. My alcoholism is a good example of something I lied about to everyone, including myself.

That said, there are certain lies that people with ASPD simply have to tell to avoid having to disclose their condition to everyone or to avoid being socially disruptive. If I didn't lie at every funeral I go to, it would be hurtful to the folks grieving, for example.

RobbyRobot

This I believe is an honest revelation of the damage lies inherently bring any of us. Those who have personality disorders often symptomatically struggle with the moralities of lies within co-dependent relationships. Sometimes its difficult to see the forest because of the trees kind of thing.

Healthy inter-dependent relations are difficult, imo, for ASPD types to sustain and nurture ongoing. This difficulty also causes stress which unfortunately creates justifications for seeking increased opportunities for more lying. A difficult chain of events to break and recover from, I believe though not impossible.

Gargery

You have cogent insights into what this is like, and they are appreciated. Living like this is like trying to navigate a carnival maze of mirrors. It's very easy to get confused and lose your way. Drinking makes it much, much worse. When I'm sober, I can examine my actions and my statements critically. I can stop myself. When I'm drinking, even just a few drinks, there's nothing I won't say to get what I want or entertain myself at the expense of others. You're spot-on about maintaining relationships: it is difficult and takes a lot of work. It is utterly impossible when I'm drinking. I think my health is the primary reason I want to stay sober, but this is a close second. There is no possibility of initiating or maintaining any kind of healthy relationship when I am drinking- work, sex, friendship, whatever.

That's no way to go through life.

desypete

just for the sake of being clear
the aa preamble says what aa is and what it is not

the only requirment is a desire to stop drinking

that is all you need gagery is a desire to stop drinking to attend aa meetings and get the help from the people in aa

you do not need to have had a spiritual awaking before you can share at meetings i dont know who on earth runs meetings that way in aa but that is a control issue they need to address

you do not need a big book
you do not need a belief god

you dont need anything other than a desire to stop drinking

if you give the meetings a try you might well find some answers from the people there on getting past these issues you have
but like i said you do not need to do anything at all in aa

i know the people there carried me for the first 2 years and really helped me so it might just work for you

good luck to you

GracieLou

If this is all AA gives you, then you are ahead of the game my friend. It can take some, myself included, half a lifetime to see this simple fact.

I don't have or know anyone with your diagnosis, at least I don't think I do but I can appreciate how hard it must be honest and still maintain relationships.

tomsteve

theres only one sucka in this thread and its the person in your mirror

and the way you worded this tells me ya also have an ego problem to deal with. yer not as smart as ya think.

Dee74

We're all on the same team here, and have the same goal.

Let's all remember to be civil, guys - and realise that words said ironically may be misinterpreted...

Welcome to SR Gargery

D

EndGameNYC

It's rare that someone with ASPD seeks help on their own. It's simply not in their makeup. If you truly want to work on yourself, then you need to find a skilled therapist who has specific experience and training with Anti-social Personality Disorder. Most people who carry the diagnosis avoid treatment, not because they don't have the full array of human feelings, but because to identify and actually experience such feelings inspires a largely unconscious terror of experiencing them. And this is wholly unacceptable to them.

As children we learn to feel bad when we hurt another child, and that inner feeling is extremely unpleasant. So we learn to avoid hurting other people, if only to avoid re-experiencing unwanted feelings. For the child with ASPD, the rationalization that protects the child from feeling guilt or pain is typically expressed internally as something like, "He's a jerk. He deserved it." "It's his fault I hit him." These kinds of thoughts then generalize to the rest of reality, in which people are valued based only on what they can do for me, and in which I continue to justify my bad behaviors, based on the unfairness of life, the unacceptable behaviors of other people and the primacy I place on what my needs and wants are. It's always everyone else's fault. The fact that people with ASPD refuse to see this only increases the power of their indifference to other people's needs, wants and desires, while undermining any potential for genuine empathy.

As is apparent in the OP's comments, admitting that they generally manipulate and use people to satisfy their own whims or needs is a manipulation in the service of getting other people to trust them. After all, "At least he's being honest." Ironically, people in the treatment field are most susceptible to falling for their pretty little deceptions.

Again, Gargery, if your primary interest lies in getting help for yourself -- and you don't indicate that this is the case, only that you want to stop drinking for health reasons -- then you need to get serious about treatment.

Gargery

Oh dear. I didn't mean to be insulting. I just found it funny that we both had the same idea. My apologies. It really wasn't my attention to offend and I should have chosen my words better.

Sugah

The fourth step is intended to uncover underlying patterns in our resentments, fears, and behaviors in the sexual realm.

Resentment inventory: where were selfish, dishonest, self-seeking, frightened, or inconsiderate?

In regard to fears, which part of self were we relying on that has failed us? Self-reliance, self-confidence, self-discipline, self will?

The sex inventory asks the same questions, essentially, as the resentments inventory, with the addition of a few other tests: Did I arouse jealousy, bitterness, suspicion?

Even if you don't have resentments, I'm sure you have a pretty hefty 8th step list of amends to make -- so, look at the patterns in your motives. We aim for "right motives" -- honesty, consideration, humility. Do your 4th to the best of your ability, and do a close examination of your 8th. Dallas B has a good set of 4th step worksheets which includes a "harms to others" sheet. Google it, and you'll find it.

And keep coming back. I was diagnosed with borderline personality disorder. Years of therapy didn't improve it ('course, I didn't quit drinking & drugging then, either). The steps helped me to see where my motives were twisted and helped create the desire to adopt this "design for living." I have not acted on a BPD impulse in a very, very long time.

Peace & Love,
Sugah

Cow

Gargery, hello, I happen to be severe anhedonic, and sometime I think really I sociopath. I not yet run across anybody else here who identify as anhedonic or sociopath. Forgive me if I think it awesome that you here! Some of things I have post about has been no taken so well. Okay, sometime they is lambaste, then flip over and lambaste on other side, but is my truth, and ultimately I has find with rare exception, this is safe place to be real. Please continue to speak you truth here. Is very helpful to other like me who can relate.

Brian316

I want to keep this thread going as I am having a similar dilemma. I don't have mental illness, but I feel like through the first 3 steps, I was able to let go of MOST of my resentments. So focus on the fear and sex inventories then?

Gargery

I told my sponsor I simply wasn't going to discuss my sex life (any analysis of which requires long explanations about ASPD and the ways my motivations differ from others) and thus feel stymied by all three inventory worksheets. I'm sure some of the folks here will have good advice for you, though. My mood changes so fast, but at the moment, it seems none of this inventory work is emotionally significant to me, nor has it provided me with any beneficial insight into why I drank so darned much. I like the meetings and I like the stories, and I think I am benefitting from listening to them, but this inventory (which many old timers have told me is the heart of the program) seems like a waste of time and mental effort.


"At some of these we balked." This is me balking. I can't even read the steps past four without groaning, because several of them seem equally useless or unrealistic. Am I seriously expected to continue navel gazing in this manner forever despite the fact that I consider it a useless waste?

Gargery

Also, I do wish some more folks with ASPD would chime in and tell me a bit about their experiences. Please PM me if you don't want to post it here, which is entirely understandable.