ASPD and Recovery (AA)
Adventures In SpaceTime
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Posts: 5,827
Originally Posted by Gargery 
My mood changes so fast, but at the moment, it seems none of this inventory work is emotionally significant to me, nor has it provided me with any beneficial insight into why I drank so darned much. I like the meetings and I like the stories, and I think I am benefitting from listening to them, but this inventory (which many old timers have told me is the heart of the program) seems like a waste of time and mental effort.
"At some of these we balked." This is me balking. I can't even read the steps past four without groaning, because several of them seem equally useless or unrealistic. Am I seriously expected to continue navel gazing in this manner forever despite the fact that I consider it a useless waste?
"At some of these we balked." This is me balking. I can't even read the steps past four without groaning, because several of them seem equally useless or unrealistic. Am I seriously expected to continue navel gazing in this manner forever despite the fact that I consider it a useless waste?
I'm of the opinion that most members of AA don't actually work the program as written anyways, so there it is for me. I know some people like to believe that members fail with AA because they don't work the program, but I'm of the opinion that when members don't work the program as written what actually fails is the quality of the collective fellowship, and not the program, or the member. Interesting.
I can walk into any AA meeting, and its obvious I fit in and I'm on the sober side of the fellowship. I don't fit because I work the program. Rather I fit because I'm authentic. Seems too easy, right?
I have no more right to be at an AA meeting with my 30+ years than does a guy with zero days. Drunk or not, we both have the same equality at AA. Gives me pause when I meditate on the meaning of this equality, you know?
My first AA meeting I was the drunk guy at the back. People gave me my space. Straight from the street, my attitude talked enough for me, lol. I still sit at the back, and my attitude still talks for me, although I have a different talk, and a different walk since sobering up. The thing is I'm no more qualified to be at AA now then I was back in 1981. Interesting.
I got no problem with you doing AA. Having said that, a lot of members will have plenty of trouble with you at AA. I wish it wasn't so, but I've seen it time and time again. Enough members have enough trouble with themselves and their own program to not also have trouble with you staying quit and yet also not doing the program as written. They will assert their opinions and if not to your face, then certainly to your back.
Keeping in mind your ASPD, do you have enough of an open mind to not fight back? If you fight back, your creating a no win situation for yourself because without program, and without fellowship, what is the point of doing AA?
There are other ways to accomplish sobriety. You can also hook up with experienced AA members and have a more underground fellowship. This would work best for you, imo. This also is an importantly effective path for those who at the end of the day are in fact more uniquely challenged then what is commonly observed in the AA population.
What do you think?
Member
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 3,359
Originally Posted by EndGameNYC
It's rare that someone with ASPD seeks help on their own. It's simply not in their makeup. If you truly want to work on yourself, then you need to find a skilled therapist who has specific experience and training with Anti-social Personality Disorder. Most people who carry the diagnosis avoid treatment, not because they don't have the full array of human feelings, but because to identify and actually experience such feelings inspires a largely unconscious terror of experiencing them. And this is wholly unacceptable to them.
As children we learn to feel bad when we hurt another child, and that inner feeling is extremely unpleasant. So we learn to avoid hurting other people, if only to avoid re-experiencing unwanted feelings. For the child with ASPD, the rationalization that protects the child from feeling guilt or pain is typically expressed internally as something like, "He's a jerk. He deserved it." "It's his fault I hit him." These kinds of thoughts then generalize to the rest of reality, in which people are valued based only on what they can do for me, and in which I continue to justify my bad behaviors, based on the unfairness of life, the unacceptable behaviors of other people and the primacy I place on what my needs and wants are. It's always everyone else's fault. The fact that people with ASPD refuse to see this only increases the power of their indifference to other people's needs, wants and desires, while undermining any potential for genuine empathy.
As is apparent in the OP's comments, admitting that they generally manipulate and use people to satisfy their own whims or needs is a manipulation in the service of getting other people to trust them. After all, "At least he's being honest." Ironically, people in the treatment field are most susceptible to falling for their pretty little deceptions.
Again, Gargery, if your primary interest lies in getting help for yourself -- and you don't indicate that this is the case, only that you want to stop drinking for health reasons -- then you need to get serious about treatment.
As children we learn to feel bad when we hurt another child, and that inner feeling is extremely unpleasant. So we learn to avoid hurting other people, if only to avoid re-experiencing unwanted feelings. For the child with ASPD, the rationalization that protects the child from feeling guilt or pain is typically expressed internally as something like, "He's a jerk. He deserved it." "It's his fault I hit him." These kinds of thoughts then generalize to the rest of reality, in which people are valued based only on what they can do for me, and in which I continue to justify my bad behaviors, based on the unfairness of life, the unacceptable behaviors of other people and the primacy I place on what my needs and wants are. It's always everyone else's fault. The fact that people with ASPD refuse to see this only increases the power of their indifference to other people's needs, wants and desires, while undermining any potential for genuine empathy.
As is apparent in the OP's comments, admitting that they generally manipulate and use people to satisfy their own whims or needs is a manipulation in the service of getting other people to trust them. After all, "At least he's being honest." Ironically, people in the treatment field are most susceptible to falling for their pretty little deceptions.
Again, Gargery, if your primary interest lies in getting help for yourself -- and you don't indicate that this is the case, only that you want to stop drinking for health reasons -- then you need to get serious about treatment.
Secondly, why are you focused n AA? I am part of the fellowship and I see great value in the program. But to me it would appear you are pushing an elephant up the stairs with AA. Its a spiritual based program that is designed to work by having a spiritual awakening (12 steps). If you cannot achieve the 12 steps and cannot have a spiritual awakening you are fitting a square peg in a round hole in terms of the outcome. Can you be a member and attend meetings? Certainly...but what is the point? To share your experience strength and hope? What hope can be shared if you can't achieve the outcome? The program is written so that the meetings are a place where fellows that have had said spiritual awakenings can pass their ESH to new members and bring them through the steps so they can have their own. This is outlined in the chapter How it Works in the Big Book.
Given the apparent roadblock, I am curious why a more rational based program such as Rational Recovery or a Cognitive based program CBT might not be a more attractive alternative to AA? I am not saying this is the case, but it would make sense that if one knew AA would never make sense that they pursue this program as an easy scapegoat for failure to justify an active position. I would be careful you are not pursuing this reasoning. This takes real honesty with yourself. Perhaps a trained therapist who specialized in ASPD would be the best to work with whether you pursue AA or another approach. At least they could help you with whether you are lying to yourself (you mention you are good at deceiving yourself and others).
Woe is Moo.
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 2,746
Even though I go to AA for year, I not ever attempt steps, Gargery, cuz was too much dissonance with who I was inside. But from what I remembers, when people was try to push me to do steps, they would say I not have to do them in order or I maybe just work on ones I can find way to work with, etc. Lot of people would leave certain step alone for very long time and then go back to it. So maybe not twist so much over particular step. Maybe focus on aspect of AA that does feel like is helping and let go of what feel unproductive to you situation right now.
Member
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 322
I am staying sober without AA. I use the steps as a jumping off point to think about my alcoholism and have even re-written them so that they have more meaning to me. (I am an agnostic leaning toward atheism.)
There are many ways to achieve quality sobriety including using some, all, or none of AA's suggested steps.
There are many ways to achieve quality sobriety including using some, all, or none of AA's suggested steps.
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 125
Originally Posted by jdooner
Gargery - this post jumps out at me for a few reasons. One you self identify with ASPD. Have you received a second opinion or third with the same diagnosis? Have you even received a formal diagnosis for ASPD? When I was active I could have checked yes for many of the symptoms. I had a Psychiatrist think I was NPD (I am not however). When we are active, our chemistry is different and I would kindly suggest maybe getting another opinion. Perhaps a third after your brain chemistry has adjusted for the removal of the chemicals - you may find things change.
Secondly, why are you focused n AA? I am part of the fellowship and I see great value in the program. But to me it would appear you are pushing an elephant up the stairs with AA. Its a spiritual based program that is designed to work by having a spiritual awakening (12 steps). If you cannot achieve the 12 steps and cannot have a spiritual awakening you are fitting a square peg in a round hole in terms of the outcome. Can you be a member and attend meetings? Certainly...but what is the point? To share your experience strength and hope? What hope can be shared if you can't achieve the outcome? The program is written so that the meetings are a place where fellows that have had said spiritual awakenings can pass their ESH to new members and bring them through the steps so they can have their own. This is outlined in the chapter How it Works in the Big Book.
Given the apparent roadblock, I am curious why a more rational based program such as Rational Recovery or a Cognitive based program CBT might not be a more attractive alternative to AA? I am not saying this is the case, but it would make sense that if one knew AA would never make sense that they pursue this program as an easy scapegoat for failure to justify an active position. I would be careful you are not pursuing this reasoning. This takes real honesty with yourself. Perhaps a trained therapist who specialized in ASPD would be the best to work with whether you pursue AA or another approach. At least they could help you with whether you are lying to yourself (you mention you are good at deceiving yourself and others).
Given the apparent roadblock, I am curious why a more rational based program such as Rational Recovery or a Cognitive based program CBT might not be a more attractive alternative to AA? I am not saying this is the case, but it would make sense that if one knew AA would never make sense that they pursue this program as an easy scapegoat for failure to justify an active position. I would be careful you are not pursuing this reasoning. This takes real honesty with yourself. Perhaps a trained therapist who specialized in ASPD would be the best to work with whether you pursue AA or another approach. At least they could help you with whether you are lying to yourself (you mention you are good at deceiving yourself and others).
I'm also aware of the line of thinking that I shouldn't use my difficulties in AA as an excuse to not pursue other options. That said... I *AM* still sober, and I doubt I could have done it without AA. I like the meetings because, if nothing else, they distract from my cravings and the stories of others remind me how awful things used to be. I'm meeting with my sponsor later today, and I think I am going to tell him I'd like to take some time off from the steps, but plan to continue with meetings. I'm not going to make any rash decisions, something I'm prone to and usually isn't for the best.
Therapy? Maybe, but not unless I relapse.
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Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 25,373
I'm going to disagree with the quoted person in post #45 (jdooner?) who says, "why bother with AA it's a spiritual program..."
If it works at all for Gargery, that is all that matters. The 12 Steps are a part of it - but not required to sit in meetings. If that were the case the meetings I go to would have about seven people instead of 47.
The Steps aren't for everyone and not everyone needs the Steps. According to the Big Book, the Steps are a suggestion. If Gargery is having positive benefit from meetings and listening then it is for him.
The only requirement for AA membership is a desire to stop drinking.
In my opinion making rules around others' sobriety pushes people away from AA - If the Steps are what someone decides they need in order to get or stay sober, then the Steps are a good thing. Not everyone needs that. I would rather see full chairs and money in the kitty and fellowship and friendship than, "Do the Steps or why are you here."
If it works at all for Gargery, that is all that matters. The 12 Steps are a part of it - but not required to sit in meetings. If that were the case the meetings I go to would have about seven people instead of 47.
The Steps aren't for everyone and not everyone needs the Steps. According to the Big Book, the Steps are a suggestion. If Gargery is having positive benefit from meetings and listening then it is for him.
The only requirement for AA membership is a desire to stop drinking.
In my opinion making rules around others' sobriety pushes people away from AA - If the Steps are what someone decides they need in order to get or stay sober, then the Steps are a good thing. Not everyone needs that. I would rather see full chairs and money in the kitty and fellowship and friendship than, "Do the Steps or why are you here."
Member
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 3,359
Bimini - I appreciate your contributions and your comments about my response...do you have a suggestion though?
I asked some questions about motive, which he responded (thanks). Having reread my comments in the 2nd paragraph I did offer suggestions, which is perhaps projecting. But my intention was to make a point and I think the OP responded.
Do you have a suggestion or your experience or just going to comment on mine?
I never said you need to complete the steps to sit in a meeting. I am familiar with the preamble, which states the only requirement for membership is the desire to stop drinking. However, are you of the mindset that attending meetings is the path to sobriety through osmosis? What is the Solution in AA? Take what you need and leave the rest? I don't believe that is written in the Book and I am not trying to pick a fight or argue but I fail to see the benefit of AA's solution by just attending meetings.
If the Steps are what someone decides they need in order to get or stay sober, then the Steps are a good thing. Not everyone needs that. I would rather see full chairs and money in the kitty and fellowship and friendship than, "Do the Steps or why are you here."
I find this statement to be dangerous given the life and death nature of this illness. You may prefer to see the seats full and the kitty full but I would prefer to see them half full and someone working another program if that program is better suited for them. If AA's solution is not working for someone then by all means try another program such as RR, CBT, Life Ring, SR, whatever...to me its not a fellowship for social gatherings or for profits.
I asked some questions about motive, which he responded (thanks). Having reread my comments in the 2nd paragraph I did offer suggestions, which is perhaps projecting. But my intention was to make a point and I think the OP responded.
Do you have a suggestion or your experience or just going to comment on mine?
I never said you need to complete the steps to sit in a meeting. I am familiar with the preamble, which states the only requirement for membership is the desire to stop drinking. However, are you of the mindset that attending meetings is the path to sobriety through osmosis? What is the Solution in AA? Take what you need and leave the rest? I don't believe that is written in the Book and I am not trying to pick a fight or argue but I fail to see the benefit of AA's solution by just attending meetings.
If the Steps are what someone decides they need in order to get or stay sober, then the Steps are a good thing. Not everyone needs that. I would rather see full chairs and money in the kitty and fellowship and friendship than, "Do the Steps or why are you here."
I find this statement to be dangerous given the life and death nature of this illness. You may prefer to see the seats full and the kitty full but I would prefer to see them half full and someone working another program if that program is better suited for them. If AA's solution is not working for someone then by all means try another program such as RR, CBT, Life Ring, SR, whatever...to me its not a fellowship for social gatherings or for profits.
Happy, joyous, and free
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: FL
Posts: 113
Gargery, I wish you well. Thank you for being so open and honest with us. It sounds to me like AA is good for you and should continue to be.
Normally I strongly dislike sharing someone else's experience, strength, and hope (I should be sharing my own), but this case is a bit exceptional. I keep thinking of the guy I know in the meetings here who self-identifies as a sociopath and how well he's doing. I'll call him M.
M is working the steps to the best of his ability. He's honest with his sponsor (who, as I've mentioned, is an old-timer and a pretty sharp one at that), and they've designed a program that works for M. M also sponsors others--he says it helps him stay sober.
The other thing that's always impressed me about M (we've spoken together at a couple of meetings) is that he's not focused on the problem, just the solution. He doesn't much care why he's an alcoholic, or why he doesn't feel the same emotions as others, he wants to be a sober, functioning member of society, and that's what he works on, one day at a time.
I can identify with that solution.
Normally I strongly dislike sharing someone else's experience, strength, and hope (I should be sharing my own), but this case is a bit exceptional. I keep thinking of the guy I know in the meetings here who self-identifies as a sociopath and how well he's doing. I'll call him M.
M is working the steps to the best of his ability. He's honest with his sponsor (who, as I've mentioned, is an old-timer and a pretty sharp one at that), and they've designed a program that works for M. M also sponsors others--he says it helps him stay sober.
The other thing that's always impressed me about M (we've spoken together at a couple of meetings) is that he's not focused on the problem, just the solution. He doesn't much care why he's an alcoholic, or why he doesn't feel the same emotions as others, he wants to be a sober, functioning member of society, and that's what he works on, one day at a time.
I can identify with that solution.
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