How many here identify as agnostic/atheist and how this impact your recovery?
Member
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 2,443
I had to do the 'fake it til you make it' in order to survive.
In the hospital, the doctor said that if I keep on drinking I will die. I am pretty sure he is right. When I got out of rehab, the first thing I wanted to do when I got home was to go get a drink.
But I didn’t.
And each day for the next year and a half or so, I woke up every day and didn’t drink that day. I wanted to drink. I wanted to drink very badly. But I didn’t.
It took a long time for my mind to change.
But it did.
In the hospital, the doctor said that if I keep on drinking I will die. I am pretty sure he is right. When I got out of rehab, the first thing I wanted to do when I got home was to go get a drink.
But I didn’t.
And each day for the next year and a half or so, I woke up every day and didn’t drink that day. I wanted to drink. I wanted to drink very badly. But I didn’t.
It took a long time for my mind to change.
But it did.
Member
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 3,677
GMO,
Yes, please downshift.
I realize there are groups that are hard-core religious enthusiasts. I do NOT subscribe to those tactics, just the opposite. It's okay to join those groups, with the understanding that that's their basis.
I couldn't do it, by the way. I was forced to go to AA meetings, and when I was done with my enforced attendance, I was out of there. The Big Book has lots of good ideas, but it was never my bible. Nope. To make it tolerable, I found the wildest group I could possibly find, a group of urban street folks led by a transvestite named "Ronny." They were wild, and many of them were forced to be there like I was. But the "old timers," the wild ones I liked the best, had some of the best words of wisdom I ever heard.
So, to go back to the reason for this thread, I have always identified as atheist, and my heroes are the scientific minds, most of whom share my theistic stance. Those are the guys that helped my recovery the most. Their brilliance and pure thinking, I was certain could not be alcohol inspired. Now that was something go aspire to.
So, if "fake it til you make it" is directed at atheists and agnostics like us, I'm not buying using that concept in that manner.
HELL no.
Yes, please downshift.
I realize there are groups that are hard-core religious enthusiasts. I do NOT subscribe to those tactics, just the opposite. It's okay to join those groups, with the understanding that that's their basis.
I couldn't do it, by the way. I was forced to go to AA meetings, and when I was done with my enforced attendance, I was out of there. The Big Book has lots of good ideas, but it was never my bible. Nope. To make it tolerable, I found the wildest group I could possibly find, a group of urban street folks led by a transvestite named "Ronny." They were wild, and many of them were forced to be there like I was. But the "old timers," the wild ones I liked the best, had some of the best words of wisdom I ever heard.
So, to go back to the reason for this thread, I have always identified as atheist, and my heroes are the scientific minds, most of whom share my theistic stance. Those are the guys that helped my recovery the most. Their brilliance and pure thinking, I was certain could not be alcohol inspired. Now that was something go aspire to.
So, if "fake it til you make it" is directed at atheists and agnostics like us, I'm not buying using that concept in that manner.
HELL no.
Member
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Nutmegger
Posts: 1,799
Originally Posted by silentrun 
That belief is what started the whole process of sobering up for me. So to me it is brilliant er toaster.
Guest
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: The Deep South
Posts: 14,636
Originally Posted by jaynie04
Or Cow, maybe you could bring a box of different items from home..toaster, flip-flop, toothbrush, toenail clipper. Ask everyone to help you pick because you can't decide. The next week bring a different box of items and tell them you've changed your mind and need their help again. Within a few weeks I imagine they might stop asking.
Left the bottle behind 4/16/2015
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: NC
Posts: 1,416
Originally Posted by FT
GMO,
Yes, please downshift.
I realize there are groups that are hard-core religious enthusiasts. I do NOT subscribe to those tactics, just the opposite. It's okay to join those groups, with the understanding that that's their basis.
I couldn't do it, by the way. I was forced to go to AA meetings, and when I was done with my enforced attendance, I was out of there. The Big Book has lots of good ideas, but it was never my bible. Nope. To make it tolerable, I found the wildest group I could possibly find, a group of urban street folks led by a transvestite named "Ronny." They were wild, and many of them were forced to be there like I was. But the "old timers," the wild ones I liked the best, had some of the best words of wisdom I ever heard.
So, to go back to the reason for this thread, I have always identified as atheist, and my heroes are the scientific minds, most of whom share my theistic stance. Those are the guys that helped my recovery the most. Their brilliance and pure thinking, I was certain could not be alcohol inspired. Now that was something go aspire to.
So, if "fake it til you make it" is directed at atheists and agnostics like us, I'm not buying using that concept in that manner.
HELL no.
Yes, please downshift.
I realize there are groups that are hard-core religious enthusiasts. I do NOT subscribe to those tactics, just the opposite. It's okay to join those groups, with the understanding that that's their basis.
I couldn't do it, by the way. I was forced to go to AA meetings, and when I was done with my enforced attendance, I was out of there. The Big Book has lots of good ideas, but it was never my bible. Nope. To make it tolerable, I found the wildest group I could possibly find, a group of urban street folks led by a transvestite named "Ronny." They were wild, and many of them were forced to be there like I was. But the "old timers," the wild ones I liked the best, had some of the best words of wisdom I ever heard.
So, to go back to the reason for this thread, I have always identified as atheist, and my heroes are the scientific minds, most of whom share my theistic stance. Those are the guys that helped my recovery the most. Their brilliance and pure thinking, I was certain could not be alcohol inspired. Now that was something go aspire to.
So, if "fake it til you make it" is directed at atheists and agnostics like us, I'm not buying using that concept in that manner.
HELL no.
6 days into sobriety, it's still easy for my brain to get a bit muddled and confused, so sometimes I might lose the plot.
Self recovered Self discovered
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Toronto Canada
Posts: 5,148
Originally Posted by jaynie04
Or Cow, maybe you could bring a box of different items from home..toaster, flip-flop, toothbrush, toenail clipper. Ask everyone to help you pick because you can't decide. The next week bring a different box of items and tell them you've changed your mind and need their help again. Within a few weeks I imagine they might stop asking.
Member
Join Date: May 2014
Location: liverpool, england
Posts: 1,708
went to an aa meeting tonight and i felt really flat as people were sharing how happy there lives are now with god in there life
god has given them a new partner or a new house or whatever it is this week that they wanted and prayed on it and got
how loving and wonderfully kind god is and we should all believe in it as it says so in the big book etc
before my son died i would be happy in an aa meeting and listening to people share like this as i could see how happy they are believing in it and i would be happy for them
but now since my son died its put a block on that as i dont believe any loving or kind god would let kids die in such a horrific way and then spend there time providing new girlfriends, jobs,houses or whatever people believe god just given them
to me its typical alcoholism thinking, as they feel there so important that a god would pick them to be saved and not save others etc
so tonight i have made a decision to leave aa behind me as its not fair to all the others in aa having me around cross sharing with people in meetings over the god issue
my hp was aa the fellowship as i know thats where i got sober an its were i learned to live the steps in my life that gave me a change
the biggest change of all for me in my life today is i care for others hence i am leaving aa so they can carry on sharing the way they do without having someone around them who has lost a child and got know belief in a god at all
its just mental torture for me at times when some go on and on about it and its a shame as i dont think thats what aa is about at all but i can not argue anymore so i will leave them to be right and try and carry on with peace in my life trying to help others outside of aa
god has given them a new partner or a new house or whatever it is this week that they wanted and prayed on it and got
how loving and wonderfully kind god is and we should all believe in it as it says so in the big book etc
before my son died i would be happy in an aa meeting and listening to people share like this as i could see how happy they are believing in it and i would be happy for them
but now since my son died its put a block on that as i dont believe any loving or kind god would let kids die in such a horrific way and then spend there time providing new girlfriends, jobs,houses or whatever people believe god just given them
to me its typical alcoholism thinking, as they feel there so important that a god would pick them to be saved and not save others etc
so tonight i have made a decision to leave aa behind me as its not fair to all the others in aa having me around cross sharing with people in meetings over the god issue
my hp was aa the fellowship as i know thats where i got sober an its were i learned to live the steps in my life that gave me a change
the biggest change of all for me in my life today is i care for others hence i am leaving aa so they can carry on sharing the way they do without having someone around them who has lost a child and got know belief in a god at all
its just mental torture for me at times when some go on and on about it and its a shame as i dont think thats what aa is about at all but i can not argue anymore so i will leave them to be right and try and carry on with peace in my life trying to help others outside of aa
Guest
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: The Deep South
Posts: 14,636
Desypete... since you don't believe in God, can you not just look at these people's explanations for God's gifts and goodness in their lives as just their way of understanding "good" in life? Since both terrible things and wonderful things are part of life, seems you could make room for this in your worldview? I am awfully sorry you experienced the loss of your child like that. My condolences.
Adventures In SpaceTime
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Posts: 5,827
Originally Posted by Cow
I remembers at one meeting I was really pressure to COME UP WITH HP! Even if I just pick random, or make just it AA or whatever! I finally says, "Look, best I can do, is to say that I total believe there is some better experience of life that I could be living, and I really wants to live that."
Which I thought was freaking brilliant! ...but they just kind of stares at me like I said "toaster" or something!
Which I thought was freaking brilliant! ...but they just kind of stares at me like I said "toaster" or something!
Some guys just can't see much past themselves because they can't get their hand mirror outta their own way, lol.
Adventures In SpaceTime
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Posts: 5,827
Originally Posted by GetMeOut
Maybe we need to downshift a bit here because I think some things are getting lost in translation. What I have come to understand as the meaning behind "fake it till you make it" is directed at atheists and agnostics like myself, because it is made pretty clear in the Big Book that unless we believe in a HP we are just not going to make it. That's what I'm referring to by the compulsion to fake it. I have indeed had several people in AA tell me that I have to have this spiritual awakening and find some HP or I'm just gonna be a drunk forever and I don't buy it. I was at a meeting once and one of the speakers outright said if you don't believe in God AA just isn't gonna work for you. OK, fine... Didn't go back there.
This is how I apply the Big Book suggestions on my own sobriety which continues without trouble year after successful year.
Member
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 3,677
desypete,
I have the same problem being around people who believe that their "good fortune" is the direct result of praying to a deity. I was raised Catholic like some other people here, and I saw too much fear and suffering by the time I was 8 years old to see the flaws in that mindset. When I was old enough, I fled the church.
To have a loss as raw and brutal as yours is, to have your life torn apart by grief and suffering, is to feel the unfairness of the world on a deeply personal level. You, and least of all your son, did anything to deserve what happened to you. The first time I heard someone tell me, "The Lord works in mysterious ways," first I wanted to laugh in their face, and second, I wanted to shove their face into the gravel. Sorry if I sound so mean.
I once thought that if you just were a "good" person and were honest and transparent with the world, the world would treat you fairly.
NOT!
So many good, honest people have suffered intensely painful lives. I think of the holocaust and how anyone could survive the destruction of their families, watch their children be tortured and die, and still survive to tell the story.
Your suffering is no less painful than that, and I can hear the pain and despair in your words. Like I said before, I read your posts with a knot in my stomach and an ache in my heart. You will find that most people are unable to handle that pain one-on-one. They want to help you but can't understand your level of grief and pain.
I often think if I could just be one of the devout, I would feel safe, warm, and fuzzy like they seem to be. But, to me that would be delusional.
I'm so sorry for your pain. I hope you can find some peace over time. I don't blame you one bit for your decision about your group. I wondered whether in your area there are any groups that meet up with similar losses and pain. While it may seem the last place you would want to be, sometimes shared grief brings some level of solace.
I have the same problem being around people who believe that their "good fortune" is the direct result of praying to a deity. I was raised Catholic like some other people here, and I saw too much fear and suffering by the time I was 8 years old to see the flaws in that mindset. When I was old enough, I fled the church.
To have a loss as raw and brutal as yours is, to have your life torn apart by grief and suffering, is to feel the unfairness of the world on a deeply personal level. You, and least of all your son, did anything to deserve what happened to you. The first time I heard someone tell me, "The Lord works in mysterious ways," first I wanted to laugh in their face, and second, I wanted to shove their face into the gravel. Sorry if I sound so mean.
I once thought that if you just were a "good" person and were honest and transparent with the world, the world would treat you fairly.
NOT!
So many good, honest people have suffered intensely painful lives. I think of the holocaust and how anyone could survive the destruction of their families, watch their children be tortured and die, and still survive to tell the story.
Your suffering is no less painful than that, and I can hear the pain and despair in your words. Like I said before, I read your posts with a knot in my stomach and an ache in my heart. You will find that most people are unable to handle that pain one-on-one. They want to help you but can't understand your level of grief and pain.
I often think if I could just be one of the devout, I would feel safe, warm, and fuzzy like they seem to be. But, to me that would be delusional.
I'm so sorry for your pain. I hope you can find some peace over time. I don't blame you one bit for your decision about your group. I wondered whether in your area there are any groups that meet up with similar losses and pain. While it may seem the last place you would want to be, sometimes shared grief brings some level of solace.
Member
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: PA
Posts: 12,000
Originally Posted by freshstart57
Doorknobs, don't forget the doorknobs, please! I note that some municipalities have banned doorknobs in favor of door levers, paddle shaped thingies that don't require a grasp and twist wrist operation. Instead, a downward push with the hand or elbow or that briefcase held in your last available hand can operate the latch.
Member
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 43
I'm another fervent atheist; I respect peoples' right to choose and practice their religion, (provided they don't even TRY to use its ideologies to shape laws, which I'm happy to say we're pretty decent with up here in Canada), although I do think they're fooling themselves with any supernatural claims.
As for AA, I think a lot of times they try jamming a square peg into a round hole. If you ARE a Christian, as the founders were, maybe AA isn't so repulsive, if at all. But for me, they idea of admitting powerlessness is precisely the same thing as giving up. I know lots of completely non-religious people who have stopped drinking without ever attending a meeting. They certainly were not "powerless".
As for AA, I think a lot of times they try jamming a square peg into a round hole. If you ARE a Christian, as the founders were, maybe AA isn't so repulsive, if at all. But for me, they idea of admitting powerlessness is precisely the same thing as giving up. I know lots of completely non-religious people who have stopped drinking without ever attending a meeting. They certainly were not "powerless".
Administrator
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 211,460
I'm not in AA but I have no problem with the powerless thing.
If I wasn't powerless over my alcoholism I would have become a moderate drinker years back.
I didn't.
I couldn't.
I have no power over my alcoholism after I make the decision to start it up again by drinking.
I have over twenty years experience, research and development with that ^
I came back to God later, but I got sober using the community here as my guide, my lodestone and my compass. I didn't mind calling them my Higher Power either
D
If I wasn't powerless over my alcoholism I would have become a moderate drinker years back.
I didn't.
I couldn't.
I have no power over my alcoholism after I make the decision to start it up again by drinking.
I have over twenty years experience, research and development with that ^
I came back to God later, but I got sober using the community here as my guide, my lodestone and my compass. I didn't mind calling them my Higher Power either
D
Guest
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: The Deep South
Posts: 14,636
I'm agnostic atheist (yes, you can be both... if you don't understand this, look up the definitions) and I don't have issues with accepting powerlessness over alcoholism either. I loosely use AA at this point, but I'm definitely powerless in this life if I think I can keep drinking.
Member
Join Date: May 2014
Location: liverpool, england
Posts: 1,708
Originally Posted by FT
desypete,
I have the same problem being around people who believe that their "good fortune" is the direct result of praying to a deity. I was raised Catholic like some other people here, and I saw too much fear and suffering by the time I was 8 years old to see the flaws in that mindset. When I was old enough, I fled the church.
To have a loss as raw and brutal as yours is, to have your life torn apart by grief and suffering, is to feel the unfairness of the world on a deeply personal level. You, and least of all your son, did anything to deserve what happened to you. The first time I heard someone tell me, "The Lord works in mysterious ways," first I wanted to laugh in their face, and second, I wanted to shove their face into the gravel. Sorry if I sound so mean.
I once thought that if you just were a "good" person and were honest and transparent with the world, the world would treat you fairly.
NOT!
So many good, honest people have suffered intensely painful lives. I think of the holocaust and how anyone could survive the destruction of their families, watch their children be tortured and die, and still survive to tell the story.
Your suffering is no less painful than that, and I can hear the pain and despair in your words. Like I said before, I read your posts with a knot in my stomach and an ache in my heart. You will find that most people are unable to handle that pain one-on-one. They want to help you but can't understand your level of grief and pain.
I often think if I could just be one of the devout, I would feel safe, warm, and fuzzy like they seem to be. But, to me that would be delusional.
I'm so sorry for your pain. I hope you can find some peace over time. I don't blame you one bit for your decision about your group. I wondered whether in your area there are any groups that meet up with similar losses and pain. While it may seem the last place you would want to be, sometimes shared grief brings some level of solace.
I have the same problem being around people who believe that their "good fortune" is the direct result of praying to a deity. I was raised Catholic like some other people here, and I saw too much fear and suffering by the time I was 8 years old to see the flaws in that mindset. When I was old enough, I fled the church.
To have a loss as raw and brutal as yours is, to have your life torn apart by grief and suffering, is to feel the unfairness of the world on a deeply personal level. You, and least of all your son, did anything to deserve what happened to you. The first time I heard someone tell me, "The Lord works in mysterious ways," first I wanted to laugh in their face, and second, I wanted to shove their face into the gravel. Sorry if I sound so mean.
I once thought that if you just were a "good" person and were honest and transparent with the world, the world would treat you fairly.
NOT!
So many good, honest people have suffered intensely painful lives. I think of the holocaust and how anyone could survive the destruction of their families, watch their children be tortured and die, and still survive to tell the story.
Your suffering is no less painful than that, and I can hear the pain and despair in your words. Like I said before, I read your posts with a knot in my stomach and an ache in my heart. You will find that most people are unable to handle that pain one-on-one. They want to help you but can't understand your level of grief and pain.
I often think if I could just be one of the devout, I would feel safe, warm, and fuzzy like they seem to be. But, to me that would be delusional.
I'm so sorry for your pain. I hope you can find some peace over time. I don't blame you one bit for your decision about your group. I wondered whether in your area there are any groups that meet up with similar losses and pain. While it may seem the last place you would want to be, sometimes shared grief brings some level of solace.
then you have people who are openly the other way and do no one any good and they seem to sail through life
but it will do me no good at all focusing on people in that way as it will breed hate in my life and that really isnt a good thing for me to have in my life at all
my love of aa is a real love that i have the same as i love my kids as i owe them everything i have today
but now this god issue is just to big for me to handle so i am powerless over it i have tired and sat in meetings listening to people go on about these things and it just makes me feel empty inside of me instead of feeling the love i have in the rooms
i have many good friends in aa and my sponsor who has never left my side so i will always have them to lean on if i need to but its aa meetings that i will be not attending anymore, as its just unfair on others just because i am in pain in my life
see this is how the program works in my eyes as i do care for others these days and its not all about me getting my own way
aa doors will always be open for me or anyone but for now i feel like i need to just give it a break
thanks very much for you comments
Recovered from Hopeless State
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: New Jersey, USA
Posts: 2,156
Originally Posted by Mentium
The existence of god or not is either a fact or it isn't.
Recovered from Hopeless State
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: New Jersey, USA
Posts: 2,156
Originally Posted by GetMeOut
I have indeed had several people in AA tell me that I have to have this spiritual awakening and find some HP or I'm just gonna be a drunk forever and I don't buy it.
Member
Join Date: May 2012
Location: canada
Posts: 7,242
".....I total believe there is some better experience of life that I could be living, and I really wants to live that."
for sure brilliant. it's a certain kind of faith
don't slap me!
"The thought that life could be better is woven indelibly into our hearts and our brains"
Paul Simon
http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j&...69411363,d.cGU
for sure brilliant. it's a certain kind of faith
don't slap me!
"The thought that life could be better is woven indelibly into our hearts and our brains"
Paul Simon
http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j&...69411363,d.cGU
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