miamifella

True, freshstart, but my point is that fewer might pick up that first drink, if they were not taught that no one has the power to help when they are struggling with the urge to drink or use. Even many here who are in AA go against that first step and try to help others when they are in the midst of the struggle.

I just want people to know that they do not have to stick strictly to AA and the steps and that many of us have found that people do indeed have power over alcohol and can help us to turn away from that first drink.

kenkd

I disagree. The WE isn't referring to the human race. It is specifically referring to alcoholics.

deeker

And only the alcoholics that admit it

kenkd

Precisely.

miamifella

I got into a few fights because I argued that "we" could not be the whole human race. But the AA groups I was in were very old-fashioned and strict about that stuff. I was told that alcoholics admit that we are powerless, but that it is everyone who is powerless. (They just never need to admit it.)

Even if it is just alcoholics though, I would also argue that they can help another fight against the urge. While it was mostly non-alcoholics/non-addicts who helped me in time of need, I do not think they were uniquely "powerful" over alcohol/substances. I think people in the program should be able to aid in this way. I know there are concerns about triggering, but I do not think "powerlessness" applies here.

And in this forum many still in the program say that they agree with me on this--even if this point of view is contrary to the first step.

I spent years trying to do it the 12-step way and pray away the urges I had. But it was not until I left the program and got help from the people whom I was taught were "powerless" to help, that I finally was able to stay clean and sober. It was an earthly power that finally relieved the obsession. That earthy power was the help of some good friends and a good therapist. They were not powerless even if I was.

karate

I get a lot of power from my friends that just quit

kenkd

I'm not sure I am understanding the first sentence of your post.
Where does the program tell us or teach us this?

tomsteve

Once more: The alcoholic at certain times has no effective mental defense against the first drink. Except in a few rare cases, neither he nor any other human being can provide such a defense. His defense must come from a Higher Power.

big book page 43
a couple other places that reference it,too.

kenkd

I was referring to the part about no one having the power to help....not solely providing....but helping.

BackToSquareOne

This topic is always interesting inasmuchas you can't be truely "Powerless" unless you were restrained and the alcohol was being forced down your throat. You are also not powerless to take the first drink or after the first drink. How could you possibly be?

The thing is tho, alcohol gives you a king sized case of the "Fu.. Its". Humans gravitate toward pleasure and away from pain. As long as you view alcohol as release/relief and a source of great pleasure it's going to be an uphill battle to "Just Say No". That's just human nature. It's much harder after the first few drinks.

The higher power is within all of us, it always was. Could it be that we all just seek different ways to reconnect with the power that never really left us? Just my 2 cents worth.

dollpart

I find the "powerlessness" idea difficult to deal with. For me, recovery should be about having the strength and the respnsibility to pull myself out of this hole. And if I accept that I am powerless surely that just absolves me of my responsibility to myself, and to others? And how can that be a good thing?

Boleo

"Lack of power, that was our dilemma. We had to find a power by which we could live, and it had to be a Power greater than ourselves. Obviously. But where and how were we to find this Power?
Well, that's exactly what this book is about. Its main object is to enable you to find a Power greater than yourself which will solve your problem."
(Page 45)

When I say "I am powerless". What I really mean is I alone do not have enough power to stay sober. However - I "have tapped an unsuspected inner resource which they (I) presently identify with their (my) own conception of a Power greater than themselves."
(Appendix II)

Joe Nerv

I believe, and accept, that I am powerless over alcohol. What that means to me is that if I ever decided to go into a ring with a bottle (pick up a drink), the drink is going to eventually kick my ass. It will win. This I know. It therefore has more power than me, which makes me power-less. Over alcohol. With that knowledge and admission, to pick up a drink would be insane... Hence step 2, and the rest, should we choose to follow that path. I did, without a single regret.

I am powerless over alcohol. And a handful of other things in this world/life. I also have an incredible amount of power thanks to my sobriety and practice of then 12 steps. Most important power I possess is the power of choice. I am free, in many ways. And powerful. I said that ready though, didn't I...

PS: I don't believe its essential to admit powerlessness over alcohol in order to stop drinking. Took me a year of not drinking before I wrapped my brain around it, or believed it to be true. If we want to stop badly enough, we'll figure out how to do it. If we can't, we need to try something different. An open mind is a wonderful thing to have.

freshstart57

What is your powerless quotient estimate if you never decide to go into a ring with a bottle (pick up a drink)? Or, better yet, what is your estimation if you decide to never go into that ring? Since you do, as you say, have the power of choice, does that power that extend to 'deciding to go into a ring with a bottle'?

karate

Powerless after the first one .

Before that ,we have the grip to abstain .

My knowledge from SR , helps my power .

Joe Nerv

Not totally sure I understand the question...

I have no intention of ever picking up a drink again, so the powerless thing is sort of a non issue to me at this point in my life. Alcohol has no power over me whatsoever, if I'm not drinking. And I don't drink.

freshstart57

OK, I'll include more of your previous post for more context, and re-word my question.
You are powerless because, if you pick up, you lose. Is that about right?

I am asking about your estimation of your powerlessness if you don't pick up. Powerless, or not? You claim to have the power of choice, so I am asking if that power applies to picking up or not?

And the last question, if your final goal is sobriety, why is the discussion of what happens when you drink relevant?

Joe Nerv

If I don't pick up, I don't consider myself powerless. The rest of yer question I can't answer right now cuz I'm at work, and it's one of those rare times I actually have to work . If I remember I'll get to it when I have time, as I enjoy digging into this stuff.

Boleo

I to think "the powerless thing is sort of a non issue to me at this point in my life" but not because I have the power to choose not-drinking. Not-drinking is sort of a non issue to me at this point in my life. If I had to choose not-drinking, I would be powerless over that as well.

I stopped thinking about drinking, I stopped thinking about not-drinking and I stopped needing to choose between the two. There is simply no second option to necessitate a choice. The Spiritual awakening I had removed the obsession from me root and branch.

Joe Nerv

It's not. I've achieved that goal. I don't drink. Only reason I'm discussing this is because someone asked, and my first post was a direct response to the OPs question.

FWIW, regarding alcohol, I don't walk around thinking, feeling, believing or talking about being powerless over it. The notion of being "powerless" over an inanimate object never really made complete sense to me either. I struggled with that concept a lot in early sobriety, and just actually decided to skip that part of the 12 steps. My life was completely unmanageable, and I was open-minded enough to trust the people that were telling me alcohol was the cause. That wasn't as clear to me as it is to some. I knew I was a mess, but believed that alcohol (and valium) was the only thing that was helping to keep me somewhat together.

The whole "powerless over alcohol" thing I came to simply define as "I can't drink". If I do, alcohol will get the best of me. On the slim 1% chance that I may have another recovery in me, I was never willing to gamble.

A big part of my realization and acceptance of "powerlessness over alcohol" came to me through the 2nd story in my blog.

All else regarding being powerless over the decision to drink or not is a little irrelevant to me. I absolutely have the power to drink, or not drink, as far as I'm concerned. I'm offered alcohol often (I'm a performing musician). I can say yes. And I can say no. I say no. I don't struggle with saying no, I don't wish I could say yes, I don't actually think about it. I haven't eaten meat in about 20 years, and I don't think about saying no thanks when someone offers me a steak, or chicken wing either . While in my active addiction I never toyed with the idea of powerlessness. The word powerless never even crossed my mind until I came into AA, and once I did, I never drank again.

IMHO, I think people sometimes get overly hung up on words. Regarding recovery, powerless is pretty much at the top of the list of those words. Alcohol will probably kill me (and guaranteed destroy my life) if I ever drink it again, so I don't drink.

Not much more I can say really, regarding my thoughts on powerlessness over alcohol.