Okay ,lets visit the "powerless" topic
Adventures In SpaceTime
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Posts: 5,827
For me, powerlessness is nothing if not an experience of selflessness. Its not surprising some guys don't, haven't, wont, or cant relate or otherwise own such experiences for themselves. Many guys so often appreciate powerlessness as a potential negative, and so eschew away from same. Its anything but negative for me. My sustainable powerlessness is a valuable and essential part of my lasting journey which keeps my alcoholism illness permanently on ice. Remission if you will. Un-empowered. Arrested. Stopped dead. Kaput. Yay.
Alcoholism beat me stupid. Down for the count. Bye-bye Robby. So close to ending it all. Powerlessness though, gave me (and gives me) unending opportunities to redeem myself, recover, and become recovered living a new life unshackled from my alcoholism illness. Freedom always comes with a price of course, and my powerlessness creates an essential emptiness within which allows the fulfilment of power not-of-myself to fill and overflow my emptiness.
Alcohol is not less or more powerful than me. It is after all just a drink in a bottle. My alcoholism however, mixed with alcohol, is a different story. Such a combo is death to me should I ever play with it and to my certain regret. I have no power to beat that deathly combination. I have no HP either to overcome my alcoholism while drinking. And my Christian faith is as well less then useless if I'm drunk. So, I am powerless from all ways to have my alcoholism in remission when fed alcohol by my own hand.
We all have our own experiences to measure the veracity of our lives before quitting and after quitting. Some guys quit and its not really a life-changing event. Some guys stay quit, and life then becomes something immeasurably different day after day unending. Such joy!
At first, being aware of my powerlessness created a serious struggle which quickly (eventually) required my changing out my alcoholic mind for a sober minded way of thinking. This change out took a lot of effort from me, and as it turns out, well worth the effort. This essential renewal of my psyche created a new spiritual responsibility which is mine to forever own.
In this, I have my own understanding.
Alcoholism beat me stupid. Down for the count. Bye-bye Robby. So close to ending it all. Powerlessness though, gave me (and gives me) unending opportunities to redeem myself, recover, and become recovered living a new life unshackled from my alcoholism illness. Freedom always comes with a price of course, and my powerlessness creates an essential emptiness within which allows the fulfilment of power not-of-myself to fill and overflow my emptiness.
Alcohol is not less or more powerful than me. It is after all just a drink in a bottle. My alcoholism however, mixed with alcohol, is a different story. Such a combo is death to me should I ever play with it and to my certain regret. I have no power to beat that deathly combination. I have no HP either to overcome my alcoholism while drinking. And my Christian faith is as well less then useless if I'm drunk. So, I am powerless from all ways to have my alcoholism in remission when fed alcohol by my own hand.
We all have our own experiences to measure the veracity of our lives before quitting and after quitting. Some guys quit and its not really a life-changing event. Some guys stay quit, and life then becomes something immeasurably different day after day unending. Such joy!
At first, being aware of my powerlessness created a serious struggle which quickly (eventually) required my changing out my alcoholic mind for a sober minded way of thinking. This change out took a lot of effort from me, and as it turns out, well worth the effort. This essential renewal of my psyche created a new spiritual responsibility which is mine to forever own.
In this, I have my own understanding.
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Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Miami, FL
Posts: 1,701
Thank you fini--
I have heard that stuff about calling a sponsor before the first drink etc. but only online. In f2f, I have heard the opposite. I do not think I ever saw anyone offer their phone number to anyone. In fact, it was often asserted that AA was not group therapy and it was not a support group.
I realized that I could not do it alone and I could not do it by telling everyone that I was fine even when I was not. Because I could not do that in the 12-step programs I knew I eventually left.
More than anything, I needed someone to talk to who would not judge. While I understand the value of tough love and confrontation, it really was not helping me. The program just made me feel more alone and hopeless.
It sounds like there are a lot of 12-groups that have a softer, more friendly approach, but that was not my experience. Because I could not stand up to the the tough treatment of the groups I was in, I thought that I was one of those who were constitutionally incapable of honesty and that recovery was a vain hope for me. I keep telling my story so that others who feels similarly hopeless know that they can indeed get help and recover. That there are other ways to do 12-step recovery and that there are also alternatives. I did not really think there was anything than other than the groups I was in, which was painful. No one else should have to go through that.
I have heard that stuff about calling a sponsor before the first drink etc. but only online. In f2f, I have heard the opposite. I do not think I ever saw anyone offer their phone number to anyone. In fact, it was often asserted that AA was not group therapy and it was not a support group.
I realized that I could not do it alone and I could not do it by telling everyone that I was fine even when I was not. Because I could not do that in the 12-step programs I knew I eventually left.
More than anything, I needed someone to talk to who would not judge. While I understand the value of tough love and confrontation, it really was not helping me. The program just made me feel more alone and hopeless.
It sounds like there are a lot of 12-groups that have a softer, more friendly approach, but that was not my experience. Because I could not stand up to the the tough treatment of the groups I was in, I thought that I was one of those who were constitutionally incapable of honesty and that recovery was a vain hope for me. I keep telling my story so that others who feels similarly hopeless know that they can indeed get help and recover. That there are other ways to do 12-step recovery and that there are also alternatives. I did not really think there was anything than other than the groups I was in, which was painful. No one else should have to go through that.
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Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 3,359
Originally Posted by miamifella 
Thank you fini--
I have heard that stuff about calling a sponsor before the first drink etc. but only online. In f2f, I have heard the opposite. I do not think I ever saw anyone offer their phone number to anyone. In fact, it was often asserted that AA was not group therapy and it was not a support group.
I realized that I could not do it alone and I could not do it by telling everyone that I was fine even when I was not. Because I could not do that in the 12-step programs I knew I eventually left.
More than anything, I needed someone to talk to who would not judge. While I understand the value of tough love and confrontation, it really was not helping me. The program just made me feel more alone and hopeless.
It sounds like there are a lot of 12-groups that have a softer, more friendly approach, but that was not my experience. Because I could not stand up to the the tough treatment of the groups I was in, I thought that I was one of those who were constitutionally incapable of honesty and that recovery was a vain hope for me. I keep telling my story so that others who feels similarly hopeless know that they can indeed get help and recover. That there are other ways to do 12-step recovery and that there are also alternatives. I did not really think there was anything than other than the groups I was in, which was painful. No one else should have to go through that.
I have heard that stuff about calling a sponsor before the first drink etc. but only online. In f2f, I have heard the opposite. I do not think I ever saw anyone offer their phone number to anyone. In fact, it was often asserted that AA was not group therapy and it was not a support group.
I realized that I could not do it alone and I could not do it by telling everyone that I was fine even when I was not. Because I could not do that in the 12-step programs I knew I eventually left.
More than anything, I needed someone to talk to who would not judge. While I understand the value of tough love and confrontation, it really was not helping me. The program just made me feel more alone and hopeless.
It sounds like there are a lot of 12-groups that have a softer, more friendly approach, but that was not my experience. Because I could not stand up to the the tough treatment of the groups I was in, I thought that I was one of those who were constitutionally incapable of honesty and that recovery was a vain hope for me. I keep telling my story so that others who feels similarly hopeless know that they can indeed get help and recover. That there are other ways to do 12-step recovery and that there are also alternatives. I did not really think there was anything than other than the groups I was in, which was painful. No one else should have to go through that.
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Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Miami, FL
Posts: 1,701
One of the great things I learned from AA is that we can only share our own experience. If you are in the rainforest and someone tells you about the desert, it is interesting, but it does not make the rainforest more bearable. And it certainly does not make the rainforest into a more temperate climate.
I think it is wonderful that millions have had terrific experiences. But there are indeed people who have not. 12-step recovery was an important part of my life for the greater part of a decade, and I got a lot of good from it (as I frequently have shared on SR).
But what about my motives? I am posting for a few reasons.
1--I am posting so those who did not have good experiences so they can feel less alone. I thought there was something wrong with me because I could not make the program work for me. As I have often said in SR, if I had been involved with different groups in a different place, I might have been more successful in the program.
Others have had experience similar to mine and they have posted here. A few have thanked me because they also thought they were the only one.
2--I am also posting so that I can learn. I thought my experience was everyone's experience in AA, but by posting here I have learned otherwise.
3--I am posting so that those with positive experiences remember that there are people in the room who are alone. If you would speak to someone at a meeting who is alone, ofter your number, or even step in when someone is giving a newcomer an aggressive critique on his or her share, I would be grateful. Use my "negativity" as motivation to make AA a friendly, welcoming place.
The deepest motives in my recovery are the four principles I base my recovery on: openness, rigorous honesty, connection to something larger than my self, and service to others. I think that these are similar to what others on SR have said they found after going through the 12-steps. I think we should all share about what helped and hindered our recovery. People looking for support will be drawn to those posts that jibe with their experience and will skim over those that do not.
But it is important that a wide range of experience be available. In my early recovery fifteen years ago before the internet, all I heard about was the people who made it through the 12-steps and the losers who suffered outside of the program. I think it helps everyone to have more stories, rather than fewer. Even if you think my experience is extremely unique, there is going to be someone who it will resonate with.
I think it is wonderful that millions have had terrific experiences. But there are indeed people who have not. 12-step recovery was an important part of my life for the greater part of a decade, and I got a lot of good from it (as I frequently have shared on SR).
But what about my motives? I am posting for a few reasons.
1--I am posting so those who did not have good experiences so they can feel less alone. I thought there was something wrong with me because I could not make the program work for me. As I have often said in SR, if I had been involved with different groups in a different place, I might have been more successful in the program.
Others have had experience similar to mine and they have posted here. A few have thanked me because they also thought they were the only one.
2--I am also posting so that I can learn. I thought my experience was everyone's experience in AA, but by posting here I have learned otherwise.
3--I am posting so that those with positive experiences remember that there are people in the room who are alone. If you would speak to someone at a meeting who is alone, ofter your number, or even step in when someone is giving a newcomer an aggressive critique on his or her share, I would be grateful. Use my "negativity" as motivation to make AA a friendly, welcoming place.
The deepest motives in my recovery are the four principles I base my recovery on: openness, rigorous honesty, connection to something larger than my self, and service to others. I think that these are similar to what others on SR have said they found after going through the 12-steps. I think we should all share about what helped and hindered our recovery. People looking for support will be drawn to those posts that jibe with their experience and will skim over those that do not.
But it is important that a wide range of experience be available. In my early recovery fifteen years ago before the internet, all I heard about was the people who made it through the 12-steps and the losers who suffered outside of the program. I think it helps everyone to have more stories, rather than fewer. Even if you think my experience is extremely unique, there is going to be someone who it will resonate with.
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By the way, I feel like I am being asked to defend views I do not share.
I always felt that the powerlessness in Step 1 was about our own individual powerlessness over alcohol/substances or our own individual powerlessness over our own addiction itself. I went against my sponsors and all the old-timers in saying this and they claimed it was my own terminal uniqueness or grandiosity speaking. They felt that the step spoke for the powerlessness of the whole human race and our inability to help each other---that only a higher power could help.
I would point out that this would indicate that no therapy, rehab or support group could help. But they said that none of them could---only the 12-steps could.
I disagreed with this and my interpretation of powerlessness is much more in line with what others here are saying. But honestly, I thought this view was completely anti-12-step until learning on SR that many in the program share it.
I always felt that the powerlessness in Step 1 was about our own individual powerlessness over alcohol/substances or our own individual powerlessness over our own addiction itself. I went against my sponsors and all the old-timers in saying this and they claimed it was my own terminal uniqueness or grandiosity speaking. They felt that the step spoke for the powerlessness of the whole human race and our inability to help each other---that only a higher power could help.
I would point out that this would indicate that no therapy, rehab or support group could help. But they said that none of them could---only the 12-steps could.
I disagreed with this and my interpretation of powerlessness is much more in line with what others here are saying. But honestly, I thought this view was completely anti-12-step until learning on SR that many in the program share it.
Adventures In SpaceTime
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Posts: 5,827
Originally Posted by miamifella
It sounds like there are a lot of 12-groups that have a softer, more friendly approach, but that was not my experience. Because I could not stand up to the the tough treatment of the groups I was in, I thought that I was one of those who were constitutionally incapable of honesty and that recovery was a vain hope for me. I keep telling my story so that others who feels similarly hopeless know that they can indeed get help and recover. That there are other ways to do 12-step recovery and that there are also alternatives. I did not really think there was anything than other than the groups I was in, which was painful. No one else should have to go through that.
Have you ever actually met someone who is incapable of honesty at such a primal level? I have, miamifella. Your no example, now or ever, and you know it.
You speak about your sufferings in an entirely surreal manner... to what end?
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Join Date: Dec 2011
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I DO have a cut off point. I don't feel like I can't stop, I just drink more than I want to- and it messes up my sleep and I feel crappy and remorseful the next day. AND I hide it.
the powerlessness for me is not stopping this behavior, so ...today I am willing to say I am powerless, but this is just day one of not drinking (after years of promising) this will be the new day
the powerlessness for me is not stopping this behavior, so ...today I am willing to say I am powerless, but this is just day one of not drinking (after years of promising) this will be the new day
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Originally Posted by RobbyRobot
Miamifella, I absolutely don't buy you actually believed you were one of those who are constitutionally incapable of honesty so as to make recovery near impossible. Your a professional in practice, yes? A lawyer as I remember. You don't think it a bit of a stretch you thought you were incapable of being honest at a constitutional level of reality? C'mon man....
Have you ever actually met someone who is incapable of honesty at such a primal level? I have, miamifella. Your no example, now or ever, and you know it.
You speak about your sufferings in an entirely surreal manner... to what end?
Have you ever actually met someone who is incapable of honesty at such a primal level? I have, miamifella. Your no example, now or ever, and you know it.
You speak about your sufferings in an entirely surreal manner... to what end?
I was in my late 30s when I became an addict, so maybe I was a lot less savvy about this stuff. I did not know that there were rehabs and knew nothing about 12-step programs when I became part of one.
Thank you, for believing in my honesty. I truly did feel doomed since I could not get past the second step. I was told that 12-step recovery was the only way, and I believed it. I thought that if I could not recover that way, then that meant I would never recovery.
Surreal? I guess it felt that way. Living with no phone, no internet, no television I felt completely cut off from the world. I think I may also have been malnourished, because I got thinner and thinner and my thinking was distorted. I just remember being constantly afraid and feeling completely alone. I wished I had the courage to kill myself. Early recovery took me to places that I never expected and never want to go back to again.
I needed friends. I needed help. I did not know what to do. The people at work were great and I would not have made it through without them. But is someone had extended a hand at meetings, it would have meant a lot. I keep hearing how meetings are for newcomers and how the program is about helping each other. But I cannot say I saw that. It was a social club. I think if there is an end, to discussing the surreal pain of my past is to remind people that meeting are not about romantic hookups or getting a job or building up one's ego. All of that seems to be the priority. But there are people in trouble. No one knew that. I was bright, cheerful and funny because that is how you were supposed to be in the program. I bet there are people just like me in every program, who would be thrilled for any help or friendship they were offered.
Adventures In SpaceTime
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Ottawa, Canada
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My apologies for my erroneous assumptions on your history and career. I somehow thought you were a lawyer. Sorry about that. Nonetheless, no matter how much I may wish to sympathize with your unwarranted experiences while in early recovery of being shunned and bullied within AA, I still can't believe you knew as little as you claim you did about yourself in relation to others in or out of AA re: recovery
I'm not saying you didn't get bullied and disillusioned while in AA. It happens, more then some people want to admit. People's AA experiences are highly subjective. Mine too, of course. Being bullied can easily warp ones' self-worth and identity in a surreal mess that can seem hopeless to the victims of being bullied.
I would simply suggest not to generalize your AA experiences as operational normal within AA proper. I do agree AA is no exception when it comes to being a place of opportunity for bullying of those who struggle with sobriety. Bullies are everywhere though, and sadly so are victims of those same bullies.
I do know those that help others in life are hands down able to appreciate opportunities to better help themselves. Bullies are an ignorant and arrogant lot, and repeat victims of bullies suffer needlessly.
Be well, miamifella.
I'm not saying you didn't get bullied and disillusioned while in AA. It happens, more then some people want to admit. People's AA experiences are highly subjective. Mine too, of course. Being bullied can easily warp ones' self-worth and identity in a surreal mess that can seem hopeless to the victims of being bullied.
I would simply suggest not to generalize your AA experiences as operational normal within AA proper. I do agree AA is no exception when it comes to being a place of opportunity for bullying of those who struggle with sobriety. Bullies are everywhere though, and sadly so are victims of those same bullies.
I do know those that help others in life are hands down able to appreciate opportunities to better help themselves. Bullies are an ignorant and arrogant lot, and repeat victims of bullies suffer needlessly.
Be well, miamifella.
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In my early recovery fifteen years ago before the internet, all I heard about was the people who made it through the 12-steps and the losers who suffered outside of the program
that was my impression also, and i'm not even sure just HOW i formed it, or how it got formed.
and since i knew enough about AA to know there was a first step that went on about powerlessness over alcohol, and since most certainly i wasn't THAT, over and over i had to keep trying to assert to myself that i was entirely powerful over the damn stuff, entirely powerful over MYSELF in relation with the STUFF!
ja right.
so i kept suffering.
i just didn't get it.
and so of course i could never have gone to AA as i certainly wasn't powerless, and the losers in my mind were the ones who were brainwashed into thinking they were.
miamifellow, yes, i think it's important, as you say, that people know they're not the only one feeling a certain way, being alone. it's the whole point of fellowship and peer support.
I was bright, cheerful and funny because that is how you were supposed to be in the program.
uh...i didn't know there was a prescription for how you're 'supposed to be', but i can add that i would not go up to a bright cheerful funny person and offer anything....i'd see that as him/her already having more than enough (stupid assumption, i know) and the people i'd offer 'help' to would be ones who seem troubled, needing something like a listening ear or just some company.
anyway, while i get your motives that you state for posting, there are times i wonder if you yourself are personally stuck there, in the painful past with AA....if you are, maybe it's time to move on. let it go. do what works for you and appreciate you've found that and share what works for you with others more so than concentrating on what didn't.
if that sounds condescending, i don't mean it that way.
that was my impression also, and i'm not even sure just HOW i formed it, or how it got formed.
and since i knew enough about AA to know there was a first step that went on about powerlessness over alcohol, and since most certainly i wasn't THAT, over and over i had to keep trying to assert to myself that i was entirely powerful over the damn stuff, entirely powerful over MYSELF in relation with the STUFF!
ja right.
so i kept suffering.
i just didn't get it.
and so of course i could never have gone to AA as i certainly wasn't powerless, and the losers in my mind were the ones who were brainwashed into thinking they were.
miamifellow, yes, i think it's important, as you say, that people know they're not the only one feeling a certain way, being alone. it's the whole point of fellowship and peer support.
I was bright, cheerful and funny because that is how you were supposed to be in the program.
uh...i didn't know there was a prescription for how you're 'supposed to be', but i can add that i would not go up to a bright cheerful funny person and offer anything....i'd see that as him/her already having more than enough (stupid assumption, i know) and the people i'd offer 'help' to would be ones who seem troubled, needing something like a listening ear or just some company.
anyway, while i get your motives that you state for posting, there are times i wonder if you yourself are personally stuck there, in the painful past with AA....if you are, maybe it's time to move on. let it go. do what works for you and appreciate you've found that and share what works for you with others more so than concentrating on what didn't.
if that sounds condescending, i don't mean it that way.
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Originally Posted by RobbyRobot
I would simply suggest not to generalize your AA experiences as operational normal within AA proper.
At the risk of going way off-topic, And it is also why I think what I say matters. People who have good experiences in AA often generalize from their experiences, and assume that everyone finds support in the program.
I have sent a number of people to AA and some have had a good experience and others have had not so great experiences there. There just is no point in not acknowledging the both the good and the bad that comes out of the program.
Back on-topic--This thread has been great. It makes me happy to see people defining powerlessness in a way that allows people in the program to help each other when they most need help.
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fini--
I do not know if there is a difference between being stuck and wanting to give back. 12-step recovery was part of my life for over seven years. Good, bad, or indifferent, it was a big part of my life and it is hard just to write all that time off. None of my friends are alcoholics/addicts, so none of this is anything I would discuss anywhere except online.
However, I think because of SR my opinion of 12-step recovery has risen. Earlier, I thought that 12-step recovery was destructive and harmful. The first time a student asked what to do about recovery, I told him stay away from 12-step programs. But reading about what people have gotten from it made me see that the program can have a positive impact. It also allowed me to see the good I myself I had gotten out of it.
Looking at it now, it is hard to say that I am stuck since my understanding and thoughts about the program are changing. I now say it is a good thing for most alcoholics/addicticts and probably the best place to begin looking for a program of recovery. Five years ago, I would never have said that. I think SR unstuck me.
I do not know if there is a difference between being stuck and wanting to give back. 12-step recovery was part of my life for over seven years. Good, bad, or indifferent, it was a big part of my life and it is hard just to write all that time off. None of my friends are alcoholics/addicts, so none of this is anything I would discuss anywhere except online.
However, I think because of SR my opinion of 12-step recovery has risen. Earlier, I thought that 12-step recovery was destructive and harmful. The first time a student asked what to do about recovery, I told him stay away from 12-step programs. But reading about what people have gotten from it made me see that the program can have a positive impact. It also allowed me to see the good I myself I had gotten out of it.
Looking at it now, it is hard to say that I am stuck since my understanding and thoughts about the program are changing. I now say it is a good thing for most alcoholics/addicticts and probably the best place to begin looking for a program of recovery. Five years ago, I would never have said that. I think SR unstuck me.
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mf,
it's only been through interactions with others who could put AA concepts and language and meaning into words that i could "get" at a time that i could "get" them that my view changed. a lot of "oh...ah...i see...there is THIS way of understanding ...oh!"
and i wasn't meaning to suggest you write years off; they were YOUR years, regardless of good or bad or anywhere else in the mix. nono, i write no time off. t just seems sometim,es your focus is on the stuff that hurt you, that you objected to, that was offensive et cetera, instead of on what's working for you.
i tend to do that, so maybe i'm reading it where it isn't.
for me, i think it's hopeful to find that my view can change so; that i can come to different understandings, new ones. you too?
thanks for engaging with me about it.
it's only been through interactions with others who could put AA concepts and language and meaning into words that i could "get" at a time that i could "get" them that my view changed. a lot of "oh...ah...i see...there is THIS way of understanding ...oh!"
and i wasn't meaning to suggest you write years off; they were YOUR years, regardless of good or bad or anywhere else in the mix. nono, i write no time off. t just seems sometim,es your focus is on the stuff that hurt you, that you objected to, that was offensive et cetera, instead of on what's working for you.
i tend to do that, so maybe i'm reading it where it isn't.
for me, i think it's hopeful to find that my view can change so; that i can come to different understandings, new ones. you too?
thanks for engaging with me about it.
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I think the strength and and the danger is just that. We learn through what others tell us in the program and different people will say things that are completely contradictory. My old timers were passionately opposed to the interpretations of the first step offered here. But it sounds like you know people passionately in favor of this interpretation.
I disagreed so much with what I heard and the harshness of the program that I just could not be part of it anymore. And I was tired of being alone. I needed help which could not be offered in the program as I knew it. So I had to leave.
But it sounds like had I been elsewhere, I could have gotten help within the program.
That's life.
I disagreed so much with what I heard and the harshness of the program that I just could not be part of it anymore. And I was tired of being alone. I needed help which could not be offered in the program as I knew it. So I had to leave.
But it sounds like had I been elsewhere, I could have gotten help within the program.
That's life.
Woe is Moo.
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 2,746
Miami, what would you ideal support program look like? I has been to many AA and NA and some I feel comfortable and some I never go back. Granted, I difficult case, as I atheist who not agree with all the steps. But it make me ask self same question, what I really need/want that will help me. So far, SR is best I find as far as community, cuz I has been BRUTAL honest here, taken criticism, harsh words has been spoken, I been put in SR jail many time, I get call out, and I get profound support and wisdoms. At end of day, is very clear, everybody rooting for me.
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I guess I need not to share so much strength and hope as weakness and fear. I can understand how difficult that can be for addicts/alcoholics so I usually share that with my non-addicted friends. I need to be open and honest about my doubts.
I think I also need to offer encouragement and listen. I do not need to hear about people's success so much as what bothers them and trips them up.
I can see how the emphasis on the positive can help people in AA. For me, it made me feel more alone. I think in normal life I spend so much time as a leader and a "force for good" that I need to be able to express fear and doubt. While there are some things in 12-step recovery as practiced elsewhere that might have helped me, I think the emphasis on only sharing experience, strength and hope would have made it a bad fit in any case.
I know this makes me sound rather gloomy, but I really am not. In most of my life, I really have to be upbeat. Which is why I need support where I can open up about the negative things as well as the possitive.
I think I also need to offer encouragement and listen. I do not need to hear about people's success so much as what bothers them and trips them up.
I can see how the emphasis on the positive can help people in AA. For me, it made me feel more alone. I think in normal life I spend so much time as a leader and a "force for good" that I need to be able to express fear and doubt. While there are some things in 12-step recovery as practiced elsewhere that might have helped me, I think the emphasis on only sharing experience, strength and hope would have made it a bad fit in any case.
I know this makes me sound rather gloomy, but I really am not. In most of my life, I really have to be upbeat. Which is why I need support where I can open up about the negative things as well as the possitive.
Woe is Moo.
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 2,746
Miami, is plenty of weakness, failure, futility and fear here. My own Diary of Mad Cow threads is bursting with this. You is not alone. I total more sour than you, but I think is important to say how you really is feeling.
http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...y-mad-cow.html
http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...y-mad-cow.html
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Join Date: May 2012
Location: canada
Posts: 7,242
My old timers were passionately opposed to the interpretations of the first step offered here. But it sounds like you know people passionately in favor of this interpretation.
in the end, it matters that i can understand it in a way that makes sense to me about me (it's all about ME, don'tcha know?) and my experience. i didn't need people's passionate-in-favour-of-interpretation as much as i needed the "right" questions and observations thrown my way at any given moment. what i needed, what was the biggest bestest help with it all, was to have real dialogue about it, whatever "it" was at any given moment. and the powerless question was the biggest "it" of all. or so i thought; then i got to other hurdles.
dialogue.
yes, well, i've found that on the internet, not really in meetings. but it's enabled me to be more open-minded and to even go to any meetings to begin with.
if i hadn't had dialogue and tons of conversations about my experience and my thoughts about it, my framework, my belief system, how it hung together or IF it hung together...all that good stuff came from conversing with others.
if your own experience is fear and doubt, yes, that's important to have respected and heard. i figure that's part of the 'experience' category.
but not to sound like an advocate here, cause i'm not.
i just sometimes still marvel at the fact that my view could change at ALL. i'm mostly pretty obstinately attached to my beliefs, so....takes a lot to move me, or even just nudge :-)
and yeah, being surrounded by a whole bunch of positive people in general is hard work for me and i feel totally like an alien in that kind of crowd.
are we still on topic in this thread? i don't remember what it is....
in the end, it matters that i can understand it in a way that makes sense to me about me (it's all about ME, don'tcha know?) and my experience. i didn't need people's passionate-in-favour-of-interpretation as much as i needed the "right" questions and observations thrown my way at any given moment. what i needed, what was the biggest bestest help with it all, was to have real dialogue about it, whatever "it" was at any given moment. and the powerless question was the biggest "it" of all. or so i thought; then i got to other hurdles.
dialogue.
yes, well, i've found that on the internet, not really in meetings. but it's enabled me to be more open-minded and to even go to any meetings to begin with.
if i hadn't had dialogue and tons of conversations about my experience and my thoughts about it, my framework, my belief system, how it hung together or IF it hung together...all that good stuff came from conversing with others.
if your own experience is fear and doubt, yes, that's important to have respected and heard. i figure that's part of the 'experience' category.
but not to sound like an advocate here, cause i'm not.
i just sometimes still marvel at the fact that my view could change at ALL. i'm mostly pretty obstinately attached to my beliefs, so....takes a lot to move me, or even just nudge :-)
and yeah, being surrounded by a whole bunch of positive people in general is hard work for me and i feel totally like an alien in that kind of crowd.
are we still on topic in this thread? i don't remember what it is....
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