Dogma and the Newcomer
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Location: Sydney, NSW
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Originally Posted by freshstart57 
My reading of the 'official percentages' agrees with what your sponsor says, maybe it is as high as the 5% number quoted by some AA proponents.
But your statement about the rest going back out, i.e., drinking again, implies that they can't get sober without AA. The contrary is actually true, that some of them can't get sober with AA, and many of the rest just got sober regardless.
But your statement about the rest going back out, i.e., drinking again, implies that they can't get sober without AA. The contrary is actually true, that some of them can't get sober with AA, and many of the rest just got sober regardless.
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Originally Posted by Pipefish
It has been estimated that approximately forty-percent of all addicts have concomitant psychological disorders fueling their addiction
There's no citation in the article, but I was wondering where this has been estimated? Googled it and the only site that came up that was likely to mean anything, was AAcultwatch. Never heard of that one before.
What was interesting is that this website had a special 'where to find' section, that listed meetings the website consider 'cultish'. Would have to say that looking at the list for my local area, I'd agree they are indeed just that, and if going along the lines of attraction rather than promotion, there is very little to recommend them (in my opinion that is
They're not the AA I recognise or enjoy - hence, I don't go to those meetings. They are full of very dogmatic, and (forgive me) relatively poorly educated people; by that I mean, those who haven't had the benefit of understanding that to question or critique is a healthy and necessary part of understanding. They seem to lack the wherewithal to understand that this doesn't mean someone will drink - it just means they want to make the literature alive for them in a way that is understandable. There are also meetings where people are only admitted if they are wearing a suit (I swear, this is true!) and hear tales of sponsees who can't quite get with that programme, being told they must ring their sponsor at 6.00am, and being given very strict instructions that lie outside of the BB, about listening to particular AA speakers, and interventions about not being sober if you take medication. Medication, I know, divides opinion, but there is a difference in debates about, for example what about my current state of mind constitutes untreated alcoholism and what constitutes depression. What happens at these meetings is plain and simple bullying. No-one in their right mind would take on the role of a doctor (even if they are one!) and tell someone to cease taking medication without a medical consultation from their own GP, but these guys and girls, they do. I've heard it first hand.
I have come away thinking so you only ever need to read the ONE book then, in all your life, just the one. It is frankly ridiculous, and pretty sad too. If anything, sobriety is meant to be about discovering and uncovering. Not finding a new dogma....addiction for me is pretty dogmatic and inflexible, and I simply see this as the same thing. There's certainly very little happiness, joyousness or freedom in it, which is after all, what I was hoping, and continue to strive for.
But I also think this is not AA, or at least, is not largely representative of it. Thankfully, I also know not all meetings are like this, and that people with long-term sobriety, and by that I mean over ten years, are not usually found at the particular meetings I described above. Unless of course they're one of the head honchos, and then they go to that meeting and no other...mainly because the rest of us are doing it all wrong, and they prefer to stay with a room full of people doing it all right, all of the time...not quite sure what they learn from that, but you know what, each to their own. I don't have to go these particular meetings, and I don't.
There is however concern, locally and at higher service levels about this activity, so the article raises some valid points; however, it could be seen to suggest that all of this dogma happens at the majority of meetings, which is not at all my experience. A good friend of mine has a perspective I love...of that saying that 'the meetings are a safe place' her view is that, the steps and traditions are safe, the people...well that depends who you talk to, so it pays to be discerning. And it does. And as per Bubovski's point, that can happen in any group of people. AA's not exempt from that, and it's as well to know it too.
Still couldn't find information on the original estimate of 40% though!
There's no citation in the article, but I was wondering where this has been estimated? Googled it and the only site that came up that was likely to mean anything, was AAcultwatch. Never heard of that one before.
What was interesting is that this website had a special 'where to find' section, that listed meetings the website consider 'cultish'. Would have to say that looking at the list for my local area, I'd agree they are indeed just that, and if going along the lines of attraction rather than promotion, there is very little to recommend them (in my opinion that is
They're not the AA I recognise or enjoy - hence, I don't go to those meetings. They are full of very dogmatic, and (forgive me) relatively poorly educated people; by that I mean, those who haven't had the benefit of understanding that to question or critique is a healthy and necessary part of understanding. They seem to lack the wherewithal to understand that this doesn't mean someone will drink - it just means they want to make the literature alive for them in a way that is understandable. There are also meetings where people are only admitted if they are wearing a suit (I swear, this is true!) and hear tales of sponsees who can't quite get with that programme, being told they must ring their sponsor at 6.00am, and being given very strict instructions that lie outside of the BB, about listening to particular AA speakers, and interventions about not being sober if you take medication. Medication, I know, divides opinion, but there is a difference in debates about, for example what about my current state of mind constitutes untreated alcoholism and what constitutes depression. What happens at these meetings is plain and simple bullying. No-one in their right mind would take on the role of a doctor (even if they are one!) and tell someone to cease taking medication without a medical consultation from their own GP, but these guys and girls, they do. I've heard it first hand.
I have come away thinking so you only ever need to read the ONE book then, in all your life, just the one. It is frankly ridiculous, and pretty sad too. If anything, sobriety is meant to be about discovering and uncovering. Not finding a new dogma....addiction for me is pretty dogmatic and inflexible, and I simply see this as the same thing. There's certainly very little happiness, joyousness or freedom in it, which is after all, what I was hoping, and continue to strive for.
But I also think this is not AA, or at least, is not largely representative of it. Thankfully, I also know not all meetings are like this, and that people with long-term sobriety, and by that I mean over ten years, are not usually found at the particular meetings I described above. Unless of course they're one of the head honchos, and then they go to that meeting and no other...mainly because the rest of us are doing it all wrong, and they prefer to stay with a room full of people doing it all right, all of the time...not quite sure what they learn from that, but you know what, each to their own. I don't have to go these particular meetings, and I don't.
There is however concern, locally and at higher service levels about this activity, so the article raises some valid points; however, it could be seen to suggest that all of this dogma happens at the majority of meetings, which is not at all my experience. A good friend of mine has a perspective I love...of that saying that 'the meetings are a safe place' her view is that, the steps and traditions are safe, the people...well that depends who you talk to, so it pays to be discerning. And it does. And as per Bubovski's point, that can happen in any group of people. AA's not exempt from that, and it's as well to know it too.
Still couldn't find information on the original estimate of 40% though!
Mental Health and Drug Abuse
The JAMA also found that 37 percent of alcoholics have a mental illness, as do 53 percent of drug addicts. These high rates make the relationship between mental health and drug abuse a strong one. Many studies have been performed to discover the reason for such a relationship.
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Originally Posted by Pipefish
I don't criticize AA - for sure I ask questions and I might not like or agree with everyone I come across and vice versa, but big deal, my job is to treat everyone respectfully, that's all. And of something that saved my life, that has the capacity to do something as profound as that, and offer it free of charge. That's not up for grabs.
That may be why, when sometimes people on SR are puzzled, or even offended, about why some of the defense of AA becomes passionate, well that's probably why. People defending it are doing so because they're not dead from alcoholism; neither are they as tormented by being in the disease, and without AA, that probably wouldn't have happened. I know that's true for me. I also know AA saved my life and my sanity. I wouldn't be here if not for AA and the people who make up the fellowship.
That may be why, when sometimes people on SR are puzzled, or even offended, about why some of the defense of AA becomes passionate, well that's probably why. People defending it are doing so because they're not dead from alcoholism; neither are they as tormented by being in the disease, and without AA, that probably wouldn't have happened. I know that's true for me. I also know AA saved my life and my sanity. I wouldn't be here if not for AA and the people who make up the fellowship.
I value constructive criticisms. Newcomers are investing a lot of their time into this AA program, and need to hear the good AND the bad to help them decide whether AA is right for them. They might not want all of AA, maybe just parts of it.
At AA meetings, newcomers really hear only one side of the story. (12 steps will change your life, if you don't keep coming back, bad things will happen, if you don't work the steps, you will relapse, etc.)
I also realize that anything having to do with DEATH (or saved from DEATH) turn people into passionate advocate (or worse zealot) for their savior. Be it religion, AA, or even a helmet. It warps their perspective on things....
Adventures In SpaceTime
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Ottawa, Canada
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Originally Posted by AAnoob
I also realize that anything having to do with DEATH (or saved from DEATH) turn people into passionate advocate (or worse zealot) for their savior. Be it religion, AA, or even a helmet. It warps their perspective on things....
My life being saved from chronic alcoholism didn't warp my perspective on things.... dead isn't a better perspective...
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Maybe unrelated to the thread but have a look at King Baby Characteristics | Alcoholics Anonymous - North East Wales Noob. I think pseudo-science can be entertaining. But that may be my addictive personality talking LOL.
My introduction to AA was in rehab. I picked up two books before I went in to rehab, the 'small book' and book about 16 steps with some criticism of AA as well. I didn't do good in AA at first but when I became confident in myself and my chosen path to wellness, AA became a natural fit even as being a free thinker..
The information I found here at SR, member opinions, moderators, links, forums and so much more has helped me incredibly. Being informed of the myriad recovery paths in and out of AA was a lifesaver.
AA is a great place to practice healthy behaviors. Like being assertive, understanding personal boundaries and how to protect yours. So much can be learned in AA outside of the steps.
My introduction to AA was in rehab. I picked up two books before I went in to rehab, the 'small book' and book about 16 steps with some criticism of AA as well. I didn't do good in AA at first but when I became confident in myself and my chosen path to wellness, AA became a natural fit even as being a free thinker..
The information I found here at SR, member opinions, moderators, links, forums and so much more has helped me incredibly. Being informed of the myriad recovery paths in and out of AA was a lifesaver.
AA is a great place to practice healthy behaviors. Like being assertive, understanding personal boundaries and how to protect yours. So much can be learned in AA outside of the steps.
Last edited by Dee74; 03-21-2014 at 03:49 AM. Reason: sent PM.
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Originally Posted by AAnoob
I value constructive criticisms. Newcomers are investing a lot of their time into this AA program, and need to hear the good AND the bad to help them decide whether AA is right for them. They might not want all of AA, maybe just parts of it.....
Originally Posted by AAnoob
At AA meetings, newcomers really hear only one side of the story. (12 steps will change your life, if you don't keep coming back, bad things will happen, if you don't work the steps, you will relapse, etc.)...
(o:
NoelleR
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Originally Posted by NoelleR
I'm sorry, I've got to disagree with that statement. Newcomers do NOT need to hear the good AND the bad to help them decide whether AA is right for them........at an AA meeting.
That would be like expecting to hear a Rabbi preaching about Jesus (as one's personal savior), or a Catholic Priest speaking for Luther's 95 theses. That's just silly.
That would be like expecting to hear a Rabbi preaching about Jesus (as one's personal savior), or a Catholic Priest speaking for Luther's 95 theses. That's just silly.
That was NOT what I said.
I did not say newcomers need to hear the good AND the bad at an AA meeting.
It's amazing how people fail at reading comprehension.
Recovering
Join Date: May 2012
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Hi AANoob I'd echo a previous comment that we can all become passionate about what saved us from alcohol. Along with that though I think we all have to give each other room to be strongly committed to one particular path. I'm not in AA (though I work/worked the 12 steps), but I can understand those who are passionate about their own view of how the AA program is best worked. I listened to lots of recorded talks from AA speakers in the first few months of my sobriety and I soon picked up that different people had different views on what was most important, how fast things should be done, how to sponsor and be sponsored, etc. I don't get the impression that there is just one set of 'dogma' but a variety of views based on individual experience. Some of the speakers certainly held very passionate views which could be seen as dogmatic, but those views stemmed from so wing that had changed their lives immensely, so I can see the reasons for their zeal.
I'd advocate that we all allow each other to be passionate about what has worked for them, while also giving each other the room to have our own personal story. I'm a Christian, but I don't mind tipping my hat to something I read from a Buddhist nun, that loving others means accepting life and others not on our own terms. I suspect that speaks also to our willingness to let all recovering/recovered/struggling alcoholics to have their own views that they may hold with so much passion that it may come across as a little dogmatic to those of us who have a different story to tell.
God bless you. Be happy. Be at peace. Be free from suffering.
I'd advocate that we all allow each other to be passionate about what has worked for them, while also giving each other the room to have our own personal story. I'm a Christian, but I don't mind tipping my hat to something I read from a Buddhist nun, that loving others means accepting life and others not on our own terms. I suspect that speaks also to our willingness to let all recovering/recovered/struggling alcoholics to have their own views that they may hold with so much passion that it may come across as a little dogmatic to those of us who have a different story to tell.
God bless you. Be happy. Be at peace. Be free from suffering.
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Well there are about 100 musts in the Big Book. If you follow what it says, you have a great chance for success. There are multiple roads to take, I have tried many roads and got drunk. The broad road of AAs 12 steps is the road I take. This broad road has carried countless humans to sobriety. The AA road has proven successful for me only because I follow what it says to do. You however can do whatever you like. I did whatever I liked, and got drunk countless times. I got fed up, was sick and tired of doing the same thing over again, time and time again. I tried just going to meetings, got drunk. I tried working a few steps and going to meetings, got drunk. I tried getting friends in AA and a slacker sponsor, got drunk. I tried everything there is to try, except the steps as they are laid out in the Big Book. I had to go through many Big Book stuides, and hear multiple recordings of Joe and Charlies study for the information to click in my head. No I dont have to follow anything, I can pick and choose what I want to do, and in the end I always got drunk. I like to reinforce the correct information in my head, because if I do not, I get drunk. My next drunk might be my last, or I might head back to jail for a very very long stint, loose a limb, become parapeligic, whatever. I can take this problem seriously, or not, my choice. I can fool around and play games, or take this problem seriously. It is up to me, to do what it takes to achieve sobriety. AA is not the only way, but I find if I follow what AA has to offer, at its core, I achieve what I am looking for and far beyond that. I am not going to go and do steps 1,2,3,4, skip 5 and 6 then do 7,8 skip 9, and do 10,11,12. I played those games, they do not work. I told myself if I am going to follow anything out of the BB I am going to follow it as its laid out. Simple stuff. Otherwise I will go and try something else, that I have learned always got me drunk.
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Originally Posted by Michael66
I'd advocate that we all allow each other to be passionate about what has worked for them, while also giving each other the room to have our own personal story.
Passionate advocate I have no problem with.
Dogamatic zealotry, imposing views on others leave a bad taste in my mouth...
Check out this great article by Margaret Bullitt-Jonas (an Episcopal priest, writer, retreat leader, and climate activist. )
The Art of Sponsorship: Beyond the Basics [Published in STEPS (A Magazine of Hope and Healing for Christians in Recovery), Vol. 15, No. 4, pp. 4-8]
http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...d-sponsor.html
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Originally Posted by AAnoob
Dogamatic zealotry, imposing views on others leave a bad taste in my mouth...
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Hi all..something comes to mind as I read this thread--in the workplace, suggestions for change are encouraged, but sometimes don't fit the culture of the corporation.
When employees would endlessly debate over these things, (or in most cases, complain)--my thoughts were always....
Go start your own business or get another job. It's a free country.
We spend so much time on this when we should just be focused on recovery, IMHO.
Just my .02 :-) I respect all of your opinions!
When employees would endlessly debate over these things, (or in most cases, complain)--my thoughts were always....
Go start your own business or get another job. It's a free country.
We spend so much time on this when we should just be focused on recovery, IMHO.
Just my .02 :-) I respect all of your opinions!
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Writingfromlife,
That's a pretty cool idea regarding your own recovery group. If AA, NA, RR or any other program does not fit what you are looking for, than put together something together that is a good fit for you and maybe others. The more programs the better. LOVE IT.
That's a pretty cool idea regarding your own recovery group. If AA, NA, RR or any other program does not fit what you are looking for, than put together something together that is a good fit for you and maybe others. The more programs the better. LOVE IT.
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Join Date: Apr 2012
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Originally Posted by AAnoob
It's amazing how people fail at reading comprehension.
1) AA is a spiritual program of recovery. That means we are going to talk about God.
"When, therefore, we speak to you of God, we mean your own conception of God. This applies, too, to other spiritual expressions which you find in this book. Do not let any prejudice you may have against spiritual terms deter you from honestly asking yourself what they mean to you. At the start, this was all we needed to commence spiritual growth, to effect our first conscious relation with God as we understood Him."
We don't have a monopoly on God. We simply have a method of staying sober that worked with us.
Here are the steps we took which are suggested... can't find the suggestion that this will work if we only do some of it. In fact, half measures availed us nothing.
Sponsorship seems to have meant 12 stepping as we call it today, instructions on that are found in "Working with others".
But the book was written for the remote lone alcoholic.. though you be just one man with this book
Consider step 2, which is about chosing the method of recovery for someone who considers themselves beyond human aid. ie came to believe that a spiritual method of recovery could work for them. Could just as easily be "Came to believe that a doctor, medication,a therapy group, a new start, or a hot bath could restore me to sanity."
2) Step four is not step 5. They are in different chapters for goodness sake. We wondered why we fell... we had not completed our house cleaning. we had tried to keep to ourselves certain facts.... we had hung on to some of the worst items. If we skip this vital step, we may not overcome drinking.
But the book does not tell us to take this step with an AA member. Though that is the common practice today, there are risks, and they are well documented on this site. The book suggests non AA people, therapists, priests, etc.
The emphasis in this step is telling someone all our life story. It's the secrets that kill us. So maybe you leave some stuff out of your AA 5 step as too personal, and deal with the other issues via therapy outside of AA. The step is still taken, and the result should be "Once we have taken this step, witholding nothing, we are delighted.
For me, that happened exactly as described. I witheld nothing. But I could have taken some of it to say, a priest or a therapist, and still had the same result.
3)"We believe and hope it (the Big Book) contains all you will need to begin. "
"To show other alcoholics PRECISELY HOW WE HAVE RECOVERED is the main purpose of this book. For them, we hope these pages will prove so convincing that no further authentication will be necessary."
AA is what it is. Problems arise when we try and make it something else, try and change it to suit ourselves.
After all, as is often stated on this site, there are many other methods of recovery available today. If AA is not for you, try something else.
The author lost credibilty when he used words like zealot. When I read further it seemed he has only a passing understanding of the programme, and the contents of the big book.
I read a little saying of christian origin the other day... "I cannot remove the splinter in my sister's eye, until I remove the log in my own"
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Originally Posted by ScottFromWI
It's unfortunate you had the experience you did, but you are merely strereotyping a group based on the actions of some individuals.
I wasn't referring to AA as a group.
I already mentioned before that I enjoy going to AA meetings.
I just dislike individuals with dogmatic views trying to impose it on others.
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Originally Posted by awuh1
In any event, I think both of our Karmas ran over that dogma.
I only skimmed the article, but I think I'm seeing it the same way as RR. Maybe because of who posted it
. By the way noob, I'm a fan... As you inspire interesting threads. And push me to work a better 3rd, 7th, 10th and 12th step .
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