Dogma and the Newcomer
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Dogma and the Newcomer
Great article I came across.
Very useful to a noob like me to AA.
AA Dogma and the Newcomer | San Diego Reader
I Am Battling Alcoholism
I will always have an affectionate affinity towards AA. AA feels homey; tolerant . . . It reminds me of my own big, happy dysfunctional family. In meetings, low-bottom drunks or angry people are perennially spouting off and the offenders are usually treated with kindness and tolerance.
In the words of the founder of AA, Bill Wilson, AA is “maddeningly democratic.” Rarely do you see such inclusiveness in the ever increasingly divisive world we inhabit. Where can you see a parolee laughing and joshing with a prominent businessman?
However, there are some things that I have observed through the years that just don’t make sense to me. Sometimes, I believe some AAers can be extraordinarily myopic in their inability to see the “Big Picture.” But even worse is when the Big Picture is replaced by dogma. This is just my opinion mind you, and I certainly do not expect to sway or convince anyone I’m right.
I believe Bill’s original program was practically unassailable: it was simple beautiful and effective. But, as with any other spiritual program/religion, when humans put their own twisted, agenda-ridden spin on things, the messages can get skewed.
I did not write this piece for the purpose of bashing AA. I wrote this for newcomers that may be encountering unforeseen issues and for AAers as food-for- thought. The following are three dogmatic statements you might hear as a newcomer. If you choose to not be bothered by them, great! But if you sense something unsettling about what you are hearing and not sure why, allow me to illuminate. . .
1)You must have a higher Power, you must have a sponsor, you must do the steps in order to stay sober and be happy. Otherwise, you will drink again or be an unhappy dry drunk.
Absolutist, either-or-statements seem to be the biggest obstacle for most newcomers. They remind me of Christians telling non-believers: “If you don’t accept Jesus Christ as your savior you will go to hell.” When beliefs are presented as facts, it becomes dogma. The Webster’s definition of dogma: strict adherence to beliefs without question. Hello AA! I want to shake my home group sometimes and tell them: “We have no idea if the above mentioned statements we make to newcomers are categorically true. Some people do all of these things, and still fail. Others do none of the above, still don’t get drunk, and are happy.”
I discovered while attending the interminably long albeit well-deserved DUI program I was mandated to attend that most of my fellow attendees had a wearily cynical view of AA. It seemed that many people were not adverse to having a sponsor or going to meetings; that was not it. It was the heavy handed, “either or” mentality that repelled potential newcomers. Of course many of my classmates wanted to get sober. But as newcomers, they simply could not-- without question--embrace some of the main tenets of AA after only a couple of meetings. Who asks you to just jump into something, giving it your all without asking questions? Cults do! Do not let AA people rush you into getting a sponsor right away or talk you into giving your entire life to AA. If you want to, great! But if you feel a little circumspect, not sure, that is okay, too
Believe me, if you stick around long enough, AA zealots, known as “Big Book Thumpers,” will start noticing you and will begin making “suggestions.” The salient suggestion is always: don’t be on the “periphery” of AA, be in the “center of the herd.” In my early sobriety, these zealot types tried to make me feel guilty and lazy for not participating more. But being able to objectively look back now, I realize remaining on the on the periphery proved to be wise. I discovered that many core members in my home group were seriously screwed up! They gossiped scandalously, were snobbish and cliquish. They also told newcomers not to take medication.
I do not mean to imply that all meetings are created equal. Even though AA is supposed to be “democratic” as evidenced in the creation of the “Twelve Traditions,” unfortunately, hierarchies form. Usually the old timers of the meeting are running the show. They set the pace, the countenance, the ambience of the meeting. Whatever they engage in--good or bad--is going to have a formidable influence on the other members. I’ve seen meetings go seriously south because the kind, compassionate old timers had stopped coming and were replaced by members displaying all sorts of negative behavior.
“Working with others” and “Spreading the message” are ways of doing service, giving back, and derivi
Perhaps you are a successful doctor that has a drinking problem. And perhaps the AAer that is pontificating your head off after the meeting is a Willy Loman salesman type. He may be intimidated by you. But AA gives him the chance to shine and show you that he has “something” you don’t have: sobriety. For once in his life he can feel superior. See through this person’s insecurities and don’t let his condescension alienate you enough not to want to return to a meeting.
If you know you are an alcoholic and know that you have not been successful quitting on your own, you have probably come to the conclusion that you need help. You see that these AA people have been able to achieve long term sobriety and this gives you hope that you can too. You realize In order to be successful, taking direction is crucial. With that in mind, you become “willing to listen” and are “open to suggestions.”
Okay, so here’s the rub. There is a quote from the Big Book said in the preamble of every AA meeting: “If you want we have and are willing to go to any lengths, then you are ready to take certain steps . . .” This quote can cause you problems. You see, some AAers can use this quote as a vehicle for their own agendas and need to control.
You may start feeling rather conflicted and confused. You know you need to be willing to take suggestions, do the work, and trust the process, but at the same time you may feel manipulated by an AAer. His “suggestions” seem more like “orders” that you may find unduly invasive. But, if you do not agree with a “suggestion” or simply will not take a “suggestion” you may be accused of not “going to any lengths” or told you are “unwilling.” So which one is true? Are you just being stubborn and unwilling, or is someone making unreasonable demands upon you? Sometimes the lines can get very blurred. Exercising discernment is paramount. Just because an old timer has sobriety does not mean they know better. Try and extrapolate if the person’s motives are altruistic, or if they are really just trying to control you or need to feel superior to you.
2) You’ll feel relieved and serene after doing your Fourth Step. However, if you leave something out you’ll drink again.
If you are not familiar with the fourth step allow me to elaborate: the fourth Step is where you get honest. In the first part, you write down all your resentments and anger towards all the people and institutions that have wronged you. Following this, is the second part where you admit all your wrongs against people/ institutions.
You will be told that a tremendous burden will be lifted and you will feel positively euphoric after you’ve unloaded. Okay? I was raised Catholic, so I’m intimately familiar with this step due to the weekly confessions we were required to attend growing up . . .
Some may feel cleansed and better, but not all. Personally, I felt terrible doing my Fourth Step, due to the *** sponsors I had. I felt supremely judged, and a little stupid for confessing to the “wrong person” twice. One sponsor shook her head in disdainful disbelief about an omission concerning lying on my resume, and the other sponsor awaited my Sex Inventory as if I was * Star. When I did not tell her everything (I believe we have a right to our privacy—especially what we do in the bedroom should be no one’s business) she looked genuinely disappointed! I mean really! According to the film” Bill Wilson” and biographers research, Bill had affairs throughout his marriage, drinking or not. It’s doubtful a sexual inventory would have even been included if Bill had been faithful . . . not all of us have sexual hang-ups or liaisons we feel the need to confess.
The next time I do my fourth step, I am going to a priest and I suggest you do the same. They are really experienced at this sort of thing. You will not be judged. But, if you choose to do it with your sponsor, or another AAer, please choose someone very much like you culturally that is in the same socio-economic class as you. So if you are an ex- prostitute, I’d suggest you confess to another ex-prostitute. Picking some uppity lady from the ‘burbs who would understand “affairs” but not “prostitution” could prove to be an epic mistake. Sponsors know they are not supposed to say anything about your step, but believe me some can’t help but gossip because that is their nature. You did not sign a privacy agreement with her so legally she can talk smack about you all she wants. It’s not like you can sue her for defamation!
3) All you need in order to recover is AA. You don’t need therapy, medication or education.
I often wonder if Bill W. would even recognize his program today, it’s been so twisted by no doubt, well-meaning zealots. Yes, AA is a faith-based program. But that doesn’t translate into “not science based.” Bill W. was extremely interested in the science behind addiction. However, at the time, Bill only had anecdotal evidence to back up his “physical allergy,” and “disease” claims about alcoholism. Bill never chose to be willfully ignorant of science nor did he want his followers to do the same. He had great thirst for knowledge and had a lot of respect for the medical and science fields. At one point, he became obsessed with finding medical antidotes to cure his enduring depression. He also had a lot of respect for psychologists like Carl Jung and William James and wrote highly of them as well as quoting them in the Big Book.
When I first got to AA ten years ago, and even today, I hear a lot of people joke about how patently useless shrinks and medication are in curing alcoholism. And that the only things you need are the AA program and the Big Book. Once in an AA meeting I brought up a book I’d read, “Under the Influence” an evocative book written by a doctor explaining the genetic component of alcoholism. I soon found myself besieged by Thumpers at the end of the meeting, telling me the only book I needed to be concerned with was the “Big Book.” This I found rather contrary. Considering most AA cadets fully embrace the alcoholism-as-a-disease concept; it would naturally follow these people would want to know everything about their disease. If you had cancer, wouldn’t you want to read up on it? So why were they so repelled by a book explain the disease of alcoholism? Because they have let dogma replace reason that is why.
Listening can be dangerous to your health. It has been estimated that approximately forty-percent of all addicts have concomitant psychological disorders fueling their addiction. Yes, AA is the salient component of recovery from alcoholism, but it is not all. Many people have committed suicide or have been hospitalized due to AAers telling them not to take medicine or seek therapy.
AA is not perfect. If you are a person that refuses to embrace dogma, you will be able to admit this. However, if you are a zealot, and hear something negative about AA-- no matter how accurate the assessment is--you will, more than likely, be fiercely defensive of all things AA. There is nothing I can do to change your mind. But please, old timers: Don’t be sanctimonious in your convictions. Allow the newcomer to come to his own conclusions on his own time, not yours.
Very useful to a noob like me to AA.
AA Dogma and the Newcomer | San Diego Reader
I Am Battling Alcoholism
I will always have an affectionate affinity towards AA. AA feels homey; tolerant . . . It reminds me of my own big, happy dysfunctional family. In meetings, low-bottom drunks or angry people are perennially spouting off and the offenders are usually treated with kindness and tolerance.
In the words of the founder of AA, Bill Wilson, AA is “maddeningly democratic.” Rarely do you see such inclusiveness in the ever increasingly divisive world we inhabit. Where can you see a parolee laughing and joshing with a prominent businessman?
However, there are some things that I have observed through the years that just don’t make sense to me. Sometimes, I believe some AAers can be extraordinarily myopic in their inability to see the “Big Picture.” But even worse is when the Big Picture is replaced by dogma. This is just my opinion mind you, and I certainly do not expect to sway or convince anyone I’m right.
I believe Bill’s original program was practically unassailable: it was simple beautiful and effective. But, as with any other spiritual program/religion, when humans put their own twisted, agenda-ridden spin on things, the messages can get skewed.
I did not write this piece for the purpose of bashing AA. I wrote this for newcomers that may be encountering unforeseen issues and for AAers as food-for- thought. The following are three dogmatic statements you might hear as a newcomer. If you choose to not be bothered by them, great! But if you sense something unsettling about what you are hearing and not sure why, allow me to illuminate. . .
1)You must have a higher Power, you must have a sponsor, you must do the steps in order to stay sober and be happy. Otherwise, you will drink again or be an unhappy dry drunk.
Absolutist, either-or-statements seem to be the biggest obstacle for most newcomers. They remind me of Christians telling non-believers: “If you don’t accept Jesus Christ as your savior you will go to hell.” When beliefs are presented as facts, it becomes dogma. The Webster’s definition of dogma: strict adherence to beliefs without question. Hello AA! I want to shake my home group sometimes and tell them: “We have no idea if the above mentioned statements we make to newcomers are categorically true. Some people do all of these things, and still fail. Others do none of the above, still don’t get drunk, and are happy.”
I discovered while attending the interminably long albeit well-deserved DUI program I was mandated to attend that most of my fellow attendees had a wearily cynical view of AA. It seemed that many people were not adverse to having a sponsor or going to meetings; that was not it. It was the heavy handed, “either or” mentality that repelled potential newcomers. Of course many of my classmates wanted to get sober. But as newcomers, they simply could not-- without question--embrace some of the main tenets of AA after only a couple of meetings. Who asks you to just jump into something, giving it your all without asking questions? Cults do! Do not let AA people rush you into getting a sponsor right away or talk you into giving your entire life to AA. If you want to, great! But if you feel a little circumspect, not sure, that is okay, too
Believe me, if you stick around long enough, AA zealots, known as “Big Book Thumpers,” will start noticing you and will begin making “suggestions.” The salient suggestion is always: don’t be on the “periphery” of AA, be in the “center of the herd.” In my early sobriety, these zealot types tried to make me feel guilty and lazy for not participating more. But being able to objectively look back now, I realize remaining on the on the periphery proved to be wise. I discovered that many core members in my home group were seriously screwed up! They gossiped scandalously, were snobbish and cliquish. They also told newcomers not to take medication.
I do not mean to imply that all meetings are created equal. Even though AA is supposed to be “democratic” as evidenced in the creation of the “Twelve Traditions,” unfortunately, hierarchies form. Usually the old timers of the meeting are running the show. They set the pace, the countenance, the ambience of the meeting. Whatever they engage in--good or bad--is going to have a formidable influence on the other members. I’ve seen meetings go seriously south because the kind, compassionate old timers had stopped coming and were replaced by members displaying all sorts of negative behavior.
“Working with others” and “Spreading the message” are ways of doing service, giving back, and derivi
Perhaps you are a successful doctor that has a drinking problem. And perhaps the AAer that is pontificating your head off after the meeting is a Willy Loman salesman type. He may be intimidated by you. But AA gives him the chance to shine and show you that he has “something” you don’t have: sobriety. For once in his life he can feel superior. See through this person’s insecurities and don’t let his condescension alienate you enough not to want to return to a meeting.
If you know you are an alcoholic and know that you have not been successful quitting on your own, you have probably come to the conclusion that you need help. You see that these AA people have been able to achieve long term sobriety and this gives you hope that you can too. You realize In order to be successful, taking direction is crucial. With that in mind, you become “willing to listen” and are “open to suggestions.”
Okay, so here’s the rub. There is a quote from the Big Book said in the preamble of every AA meeting: “If you want we have and are willing to go to any lengths, then you are ready to take certain steps . . .” This quote can cause you problems. You see, some AAers can use this quote as a vehicle for their own agendas and need to control.
You may start feeling rather conflicted and confused. You know you need to be willing to take suggestions, do the work, and trust the process, but at the same time you may feel manipulated by an AAer. His “suggestions” seem more like “orders” that you may find unduly invasive. But, if you do not agree with a “suggestion” or simply will not take a “suggestion” you may be accused of not “going to any lengths” or told you are “unwilling.” So which one is true? Are you just being stubborn and unwilling, or is someone making unreasonable demands upon you? Sometimes the lines can get very blurred. Exercising discernment is paramount. Just because an old timer has sobriety does not mean they know better. Try and extrapolate if the person’s motives are altruistic, or if they are really just trying to control you or need to feel superior to you.
2) You’ll feel relieved and serene after doing your Fourth Step. However, if you leave something out you’ll drink again.
If you are not familiar with the fourth step allow me to elaborate: the fourth Step is where you get honest. In the first part, you write down all your resentments and anger towards all the people and institutions that have wronged you. Following this, is the second part where you admit all your wrongs against people/ institutions.
You will be told that a tremendous burden will be lifted and you will feel positively euphoric after you’ve unloaded. Okay? I was raised Catholic, so I’m intimately familiar with this step due to the weekly confessions we were required to attend growing up . . .
Some may feel cleansed and better, but not all. Personally, I felt terrible doing my Fourth Step, due to the *** sponsors I had. I felt supremely judged, and a little stupid for confessing to the “wrong person” twice. One sponsor shook her head in disdainful disbelief about an omission concerning lying on my resume, and the other sponsor awaited my Sex Inventory as if I was * Star. When I did not tell her everything (I believe we have a right to our privacy—especially what we do in the bedroom should be no one’s business) she looked genuinely disappointed! I mean really! According to the film” Bill Wilson” and biographers research, Bill had affairs throughout his marriage, drinking or not. It’s doubtful a sexual inventory would have even been included if Bill had been faithful . . . not all of us have sexual hang-ups or liaisons we feel the need to confess.
The next time I do my fourth step, I am going to a priest and I suggest you do the same. They are really experienced at this sort of thing. You will not be judged. But, if you choose to do it with your sponsor, or another AAer, please choose someone very much like you culturally that is in the same socio-economic class as you. So if you are an ex- prostitute, I’d suggest you confess to another ex-prostitute. Picking some uppity lady from the ‘burbs who would understand “affairs” but not “prostitution” could prove to be an epic mistake. Sponsors know they are not supposed to say anything about your step, but believe me some can’t help but gossip because that is their nature. You did not sign a privacy agreement with her so legally she can talk smack about you all she wants. It’s not like you can sue her for defamation!
3) All you need in order to recover is AA. You don’t need therapy, medication or education.
I often wonder if Bill W. would even recognize his program today, it’s been so twisted by no doubt, well-meaning zealots. Yes, AA is a faith-based program. But that doesn’t translate into “not science based.” Bill W. was extremely interested in the science behind addiction. However, at the time, Bill only had anecdotal evidence to back up his “physical allergy,” and “disease” claims about alcoholism. Bill never chose to be willfully ignorant of science nor did he want his followers to do the same. He had great thirst for knowledge and had a lot of respect for the medical and science fields. At one point, he became obsessed with finding medical antidotes to cure his enduring depression. He also had a lot of respect for psychologists like Carl Jung and William James and wrote highly of them as well as quoting them in the Big Book.
When I first got to AA ten years ago, and even today, I hear a lot of people joke about how patently useless shrinks and medication are in curing alcoholism. And that the only things you need are the AA program and the Big Book. Once in an AA meeting I brought up a book I’d read, “Under the Influence” an evocative book written by a doctor explaining the genetic component of alcoholism. I soon found myself besieged by Thumpers at the end of the meeting, telling me the only book I needed to be concerned with was the “Big Book.” This I found rather contrary. Considering most AA cadets fully embrace the alcoholism-as-a-disease concept; it would naturally follow these people would want to know everything about their disease. If you had cancer, wouldn’t you want to read up on it? So why were they so repelled by a book explain the disease of alcoholism? Because they have let dogma replace reason that is why.
Listening can be dangerous to your health. It has been estimated that approximately forty-percent of all addicts have concomitant psychological disorders fueling their addiction. Yes, AA is the salient component of recovery from alcoholism, but it is not all. Many people have committed suicide or have been hospitalized due to AAers telling them not to take medicine or seek therapy.
AA is not perfect. If you are a person that refuses to embrace dogma, you will be able to admit this. However, if you are a zealot, and hear something negative about AA-- no matter how accurate the assessment is--you will, more than likely, be fiercely defensive of all things AA. There is nothing I can do to change your mind. But please, old timers: Don’t be sanctimonious in your convictions. Allow the newcomer to come to his own conclusions on his own time, not yours.
Member
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Melbourne Australia.
Posts: 3,753
As millions of people attend the rooms of AA we must expect some expression of dissenting views, along with the literalism of the so called Big Book thumper. This is simply life, and AA does not claim to espouse truth in its totality: quite the contrary.
(1) To me the higher power concept relates to an external spiritual force for the good.
I attempt to utilize this force at the secular level, in terms of goodness as I am able to understand such. AA (collectively) has not attempted to make me follow any specific God, doctrine, or dogma that I oppose. A few individuals may have tried to do so, but surely such are to be found in all aspects of socializing.
(2) As for the confessional step: I did mine with a catholic priest. Personally I do not see it essential to the program, if one feels very uncomfortable about such. It can be cathartic, but I imagine a turning over to ones higher power may well suffice.This is just my own personal consideration. As an aside,post my 5th, which lasted over an hour, I discovered by re visiting some of my old and dark drinking haunts soberly, a lot of other shameful stuff surfaced. I do not plan to re hash this in an arbitrary manner....
(3) In its formative years Dr Bob stressed that science be given a fair go, along with spirituality. I do not recall anyone, at a meeting, advocating a non medical purely faith healing approach, though I imagine this does happen.Medicine, surgery, counselling are of value of course despite some over use which may well put the cart before the horse in some instances.
I am a fan of AA.
I see it as a spiritual place, a place of sound psychological/philosophical teachings, and as open as one allows it to be.
There will always be detractors and I sometimes wonder if their damning remarks can be supported by a better all round system?
(1) To me the higher power concept relates to an external spiritual force for the good.
I attempt to utilize this force at the secular level, in terms of goodness as I am able to understand such. AA (collectively) has not attempted to make me follow any specific God, doctrine, or dogma that I oppose. A few individuals may have tried to do so, but surely such are to be found in all aspects of socializing.
(2) As for the confessional step: I did mine with a catholic priest. Personally I do not see it essential to the program, if one feels very uncomfortable about such. It can be cathartic, but I imagine a turning over to ones higher power may well suffice.This is just my own personal consideration. As an aside,post my 5th, which lasted over an hour, I discovered by re visiting some of my old and dark drinking haunts soberly, a lot of other shameful stuff surfaced. I do not plan to re hash this in an arbitrary manner....
(3) In its formative years Dr Bob stressed that science be given a fair go, along with spirituality. I do not recall anyone, at a meeting, advocating a non medical purely faith healing approach, though I imagine this does happen.Medicine, surgery, counselling are of value of course despite some over use which may well put the cart before the horse in some instances.
I am a fan of AA.
I see it as a spiritual place, a place of sound psychological/philosophical teachings, and as open as one allows it to be.
There will always be detractors and I sometimes wonder if their damning remarks can be supported by a better all round system?
Adventures In SpaceTime
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Posts: 5,827
You've already had the link and same post deleted yesterday. I know because I was writing a post, and poof! gone.
I'll wait to see if it gets deleted again before I comment on the linked article.
I'll wait to see if it gets deleted again before I comment on the linked article.
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 100
Originally Posted by RobbyRobot 
You've already had the link and same post deleted yesterday. I know because I was writing a post, and poof! gone.
I'll wait to see if it gets deleted again before I comment on the linked article.
I'll wait to see if it gets deleted again before I comment on the linked article.
it was deleted because it was in the "newcomer" section.
(which they don't allow links that criticize recovery methods)
it should be fine here.
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 100
Originally Posted by KateL
It's interesting but I don't like to poke fun at AA just because it doesn't suit me. Debate is fine but if you don't think much of AA, then why go? xxxx
Personally, I like AA. (for the most part)
And as a newcomer to AA, I would like hear all different opinions of AA, the good AND the bad. This helps me in the understanding of AA and ultimately whether AA is good for me in the long run.
Member
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Sydney, NSW
Posts: 104
Amen to the OP. Well said
I like AA and go to meetings. Don't feel guilty about using your intuition and natural intelligence to question what goes on. I have found that many of the thumpers have nothing else in their lives. I know a multitude who are on welfare, unemployed, go to 2 to 3 meetings a day and relish their position of relative "knowledge" and use it as an attempt at control and authority. Especially to the new comer with an "I am the keeper of the key" type approach.
I felt no spiritual freedom or relief after doing step 4 or 5. In fact I felt like an ice cream on the way home. I keep to myself on the whole at AA meetings because I am sick of having 3 or 4 people thrust their numbers at me, quiz me on whether or not I have a sponsor (I do), how long I have "up", whether I have picked up a drink or not. I gravitate to people that have balance in their lives, are warm and humorous. Not someone whose sole qualification is that they have 8 years up and is seemingly wholly myopic on the best way and only way to get sober. Their way. Someone who says "speak to the old timers" at every turn.
Clearly it takes all sorts and AA is a slice of society. Take what you can use and leave the rest.
I like AA and go to meetings. Don't feel guilty about using your intuition and natural intelligence to question what goes on. I have found that many of the thumpers have nothing else in their lives. I know a multitude who are on welfare, unemployed, go to 2 to 3 meetings a day and relish their position of relative "knowledge" and use it as an attempt at control and authority. Especially to the new comer with an "I am the keeper of the key" type approach.
I felt no spiritual freedom or relief after doing step 4 or 5. In fact I felt like an ice cream on the way home. I keep to myself on the whole at AA meetings because I am sick of having 3 or 4 people thrust their numbers at me, quiz me on whether or not I have a sponsor (I do), how long I have "up", whether I have picked up a drink or not. I gravitate to people that have balance in their lives, are warm and humorous. Not someone whose sole qualification is that they have 8 years up and is seemingly wholly myopic on the best way and only way to get sober. Their way. Someone who says "speak to the old timers" at every turn.
Clearly it takes all sorts and AA is a slice of society. Take what you can use and leave the rest.
AA member
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: United Kingdom.
Posts: 3,007
If you are new to AA keep going and form your own opinion about it.
AA is a worldwide fellowship,this article is just the way one person sees things.There are about 2million other people in the meetings,probably every one of them has a slightly different way of looking at the programme.
You will either like AA or not,reading articles can't make the decision for you.
AA is a worldwide fellowship,this article is just the way one person sees things.There are about 2million other people in the meetings,probably every one of them has a slightly different way of looking at the programme.
You will either like AA or not,reading articles can't make the decision for you.
Adventures In SpaceTime
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Posts: 5,827
Originally Posted by AAnoob
Actually as posted in the article linked by Noob.
1)You must have a higher Power, you must have a sponsor, you must do the steps in order to stay sober and be happy. Otherwise, you will drink again or be an unhappy dry drunk.
2) You’ll feel relieved and serene after doing your Fourth Step. However, if you leave something out you’ll drink again.
3) All you need in order to recover is AA. You don’t need therapy, medication or education.
Therapy, and we're talking deep and intense was also required by me to successfully make good with my new sober lifestyle. Essential. Without therapy, I would be simply an empty husk of a man. So for me to recover, and become recovered in my life required much more then simply causing my alcoholism to go into remission. Anyways, its held in remission by my HP, not by me. Still though, I'm the one who worked the program to have my HP of my own understanding put my alcoholism into cold storage. It did for me what I couldn't do for myself.
Therapy rocks.
AA rocks too.
So yeah, I don't have trouble as such with the article. I do think its a blundering example of useless generalizations slanted into a negative abyss of misinformed declarative statements that are easily disproven.... does that come off as me being troubled, lol.
Awuh,
Since your not jesting, what is so valuable to you in the article? I'm being earnest in my asking. What have I not seen?
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 100
FYI, I been going to a meeting a day for the last month and half, and it has been an enjoyable experience.
But I soon realize that any criticisms of AA at an AA meeting is a taboo.
So, newcomers for the most part won't hear any criticisms of AA at meetings.
That is why I been researching forums and the web for constructive criticisms of AA, in order to see the whole picture.
I thinking any independent thinking newcomers to AA would do the same.
But I soon realize that any criticisms of AA at an AA meeting is a taboo.
So, newcomers for the most part won't hear any criticisms of AA at meetings.
That is why I been researching forums and the web for constructive criticisms of AA, in order to see the whole picture.
I thinking any independent thinking newcomers to AA would do the same.
Originally Posted by heath480
If you are new to AA keep going and form your own opinion about it.
AA is a worldwide fellowship,this article is just the way one person sees things.There are about 2million other people in the meetings,probably every one of them has a slightly different way of looking at the programme.
You will either like AA or not,reading articles can't make the decision for you.
AA is a worldwide fellowship,this article is just the way one person sees things.There are about 2million other people in the meetings,probably every one of them has a slightly different way of looking at the programme.
You will either like AA or not,reading articles can't make the decision for you.
Kaleidoscope eyes
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: London
Posts: 5,243
Originally Posted by Deluxe
Amen to the OP. Well said
I like AA and go to meetings. Don't feel guilty about using your intuition and natural intelligence to question what goes on. I have found that many of the thumpers have nothing else in their lives. I know a multitude who are on welfare, unemployed, go to 2 to 3 meetings a day and relish their position of relative "knowledge" and use it as an attempt at control and authority. Especially to the new comer with an "I am the keeper of the key" type approach.
I felt no spiritual freedom or relief after doing step 4 or 5. In fact I felt like an ice cream on the way home. I keep to myself on the whole at AA meetings because I am sick of having 3 or 4 people thrust their numbers at me, quiz me on whether or not I have a sponsor (I do), how long I have "up", whether I have picked up a drink or not. I gravitate to people that have balance in their lives, are warm and humorous. Not someone whose sole qualification is that they have 8 years up and is seemingly wholly myopic on the best way and only way to get sober. Their way. Someone who says "speak to the old timers" at every turn.
Clearly it takes all sorts and AA is a slice of society. Take what you can use and leave the rest.
I like AA and go to meetings. Don't feel guilty about using your intuition and natural intelligence to question what goes on. I have found that many of the thumpers have nothing else in their lives. I know a multitude who are on welfare, unemployed, go to 2 to 3 meetings a day and relish their position of relative "knowledge" and use it as an attempt at control and authority. Especially to the new comer with an "I am the keeper of the key" type approach.
I felt no spiritual freedom or relief after doing step 4 or 5. In fact I felt like an ice cream on the way home. I keep to myself on the whole at AA meetings because I am sick of having 3 or 4 people thrust their numbers at me, quiz me on whether or not I have a sponsor (I do), how long I have "up", whether I have picked up a drink or not. I gravitate to people that have balance in their lives, are warm and humorous. Not someone whose sole qualification is that they have 8 years up and is seemingly wholly myopic on the best way and only way to get sober. Their way. Someone who says "speak to the old timers" at every turn.
Clearly it takes all sorts and AA is a slice of society. Take what you can use and leave the rest.
xxxx
Member
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Essex
Posts: 411
It has been estimated that approximately forty-percent of all addicts have concomitant psychological disorders fueling their addiction
There's no citation in the article, but I was wondering where this has been estimated? Googled it and the only site that came up that was likely to mean anything, was AAcultwatch. Never heard of that one before.
What was interesting is that this website had a special 'where to find' section, that listed meetings the website consider 'cultish'. Would have to say that looking at the list for my local area, I'd agree they are indeed just that, and if going along the lines of attraction rather than promotion, there is very little to recommend them (in my opinion that is
They're not the AA I recognise or enjoy - hence, I don't go to those meetings. They are full of very dogmatic, and (forgive me) relatively poorly educated people; by that I mean, those who haven't had the benefit of understanding that to question or critique is a healthy and necessary part of understanding. They seem to lack the wherewithal to understand that this doesn't mean someone will drink - it just means they want to make the literature alive for them in a way that is understandable. There are also meetings where people are only admitted if they are wearing a suit (I swear, this is true!) and hear tales of sponsees who can't quite get with that programme, being told they must ring their sponsor at 6.00am, and being given very strict instructions that lie outside of the BB, about listening to particular AA speakers, and interventions about not being sober if you take medication. Medication, I know, divides opinion, but there is a difference in debates about, for example what about my current state of mind constitutes untreated alcoholism and what constitutes depression. What happens at these meetings is plain and simple bullying. No-one in their right mind would take on the role of a doctor (even if they are one!) and tell someone to cease taking medication without a medical consultation from their own GP, but these guys and girls, they do. I've heard it first hand.
I have come away thinking so you only ever need to read the ONE book then, in all your life, just the one. It is frankly ridiculous, and pretty sad too. If anything, sobriety is meant to be about discovering and uncovering. Not finding a new dogma....addiction for me is pretty dogmatic and inflexible, and I simply see this as the same thing. There's certainly very little happiness, joyousness or freedom in it, which is after all, what I was hoping, and continue to strive for.
But I also think this is not AA, or at least, is not largely representative of it. Thankfully, I also know not all meetings are like this, and that people with long-term sobriety, and by that I mean over ten years, are not usually found at the particular meetings I described above. Unless of course they're one of the head honchos, and then they go to that meeting and no other...mainly because the rest of us are doing it all wrong, and they prefer to stay with a room full of people doing it all right, all of the time...not quite sure what they learn from that, but you know what, each to their own. I don't have to go these particular meetings, and I don't.
There is however concern, locally and at higher service levels about this activity, so the article raises some valid points; however, it could be seen to suggest that all of this dogma happens at the majority of meetings, which is not at all my experience. A good friend of mine has a perspective I love...of that saying that 'the meetings are a safe place' her view is that, the steps and traditions are safe, the people...well that depends who you talk to, so it pays to be discerning. And it does. And as per Bubovski's point, that can happen in any group of people. AA's not exempt from that, and it's as well to know it too.
Still couldn't find information on the original estimate of 40% though!
There's no citation in the article, but I was wondering where this has been estimated? Googled it and the only site that came up that was likely to mean anything, was AAcultwatch. Never heard of that one before.
What was interesting is that this website had a special 'where to find' section, that listed meetings the website consider 'cultish'. Would have to say that looking at the list for my local area, I'd agree they are indeed just that, and if going along the lines of attraction rather than promotion, there is very little to recommend them (in my opinion that is
They're not the AA I recognise or enjoy - hence, I don't go to those meetings. They are full of very dogmatic, and (forgive me) relatively poorly educated people; by that I mean, those who haven't had the benefit of understanding that to question or critique is a healthy and necessary part of understanding. They seem to lack the wherewithal to understand that this doesn't mean someone will drink - it just means they want to make the literature alive for them in a way that is understandable. There are also meetings where people are only admitted if they are wearing a suit (I swear, this is true!) and hear tales of sponsees who can't quite get with that programme, being told they must ring their sponsor at 6.00am, and being given very strict instructions that lie outside of the BB, about listening to particular AA speakers, and interventions about not being sober if you take medication. Medication, I know, divides opinion, but there is a difference in debates about, for example what about my current state of mind constitutes untreated alcoholism and what constitutes depression. What happens at these meetings is plain and simple bullying. No-one in their right mind would take on the role of a doctor (even if they are one!) and tell someone to cease taking medication without a medical consultation from their own GP, but these guys and girls, they do. I've heard it first hand.
I have come away thinking so you only ever need to read the ONE book then, in all your life, just the one. It is frankly ridiculous, and pretty sad too. If anything, sobriety is meant to be about discovering and uncovering. Not finding a new dogma....addiction for me is pretty dogmatic and inflexible, and I simply see this as the same thing. There's certainly very little happiness, joyousness or freedom in it, which is after all, what I was hoping, and continue to strive for.
But I also think this is not AA, or at least, is not largely representative of it. Thankfully, I also know not all meetings are like this, and that people with long-term sobriety, and by that I mean over ten years, are not usually found at the particular meetings I described above. Unless of course they're one of the head honchos, and then they go to that meeting and no other...mainly because the rest of us are doing it all wrong, and they prefer to stay with a room full of people doing it all right, all of the time...not quite sure what they learn from that, but you know what, each to their own. I don't have to go these particular meetings, and I don't.
There is however concern, locally and at higher service levels about this activity, so the article raises some valid points; however, it could be seen to suggest that all of this dogma happens at the majority of meetings, which is not at all my experience. A good friend of mine has a perspective I love...of that saying that 'the meetings are a safe place' her view is that, the steps and traditions are safe, the people...well that depends who you talk to, so it pays to be discerning. And it does. And as per Bubovski's point, that can happen in any group of people. AA's not exempt from that, and it's as well to know it too.
Still couldn't find information on the original estimate of 40% though!
Sober Alcoholic
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 3,539
Well I'm unclear Rob. You say that you agree with what is said in the article. That is, that you disagree, with those 'truisms' 1,2 and 3 which are often spoken at meetings (and are not in the book and for the most part contradict it). Then you conclude by saying the article is useless generalizations.
Well perhaps useless to you, but perhaps not so useless to many who are new to the program. The three points (1,2and3) illustrate commonly heard statements, the likes of which often go unchallenged. They are (as the writer points out) often stated by those who wish to feel superior.
1,2 and3 are personnel opinions, stated as facts. Newcomers are not in a position to sort all this out in the beginning, and some become alienated when this unchallenged 'dogma' is presented as fact. This is just the sort of thing that serves only to prevent some newcomers from benefiting from a truly wonderful program, and it's the sort of thing that needs to see the light of day.
Well perhaps useless to you, but perhaps not so useless to many who are new to the program. The three points (1,2and3) illustrate commonly heard statements, the likes of which often go unchallenged. They are (as the writer points out) often stated by those who wish to feel superior.
1,2 and3 are personnel opinions, stated as facts. Newcomers are not in a position to sort all this out in the beginning, and some become alienated when this unchallenged 'dogma' is presented as fact. This is just the sort of thing that serves only to prevent some newcomers from benefiting from a truly wonderful program, and it's the sort of thing that needs to see the light of day.
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