Harvard Study includes thoughts on moderation
EndGame
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: New York, NY
Posts: 4,677
Originally Posted by enfinthechange 
Hello, hope you don't mind my interjection... it may be that more educated people are more able to cope with their alcoholism and rationalise it within their secure homes and lives... so their alcoholism is more socially acceptable and able to be explained away to themselves and those around them as fun and normal...
So perhaps they believe they are moderating, but just ignore the hiccups????
I am leaning towards the idea that moderation is just not possible, coz if you want some, you just going to want more!
So perhaps they believe they are moderating, but just ignore the hiccups????
I am leaning towards the idea that moderation is just not possible, coz if you want some, you just going to want more!
Member
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,949
Originally Posted by EndGameNYC
Sometimes we see politics where it doesn't exist. There's a vast array of variables studied in the overall research project of which the Harvard Grant Study is a part. The researchers also found that "liberal-minded people" had more satisfying romantic relationships and more and better sex. Doesn't sound like a bash to me.
Member
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,949
Originally Posted by jdooner
Cabo you are addressing what I think is an important topic. I am not threatened by moderation etc. In fact, i struggled with whether I am an alcoholic and an addict for quite some time. I am. Even after coming to terms with this, I would still question the ability to go back out and moderate - the basic definition of addiction.
I am working AA's 12 steps (step 4) and I still have thoughts but I now have tools to deal with these thoughts. But why would someone want to go back out and drink?
I mean, I have yet to meet anyone who has said alcohol did great things for me. I have met many that like feeling out of control, or th buzz or even the taste. But for those of us that fall into alcoholic or problem drinker I would doubt many have good things, yet most of us expend tons of energy to rationalize another drink or the ability to moderate a drink, why? Is it the psychology that we are missing out. Is it a broken reward motivation pathway system? The chemical changes in our brain or a combination of the above?
I am working AA's 12 steps (step 4) and I still have thoughts but I now have tools to deal with these thoughts. But why would someone want to go back out and drink?
I mean, I have yet to meet anyone who has said alcohol did great things for me. I have met many that like feeling out of control, or th buzz or even the taste. But for those of us that fall into alcoholic or problem drinker I would doubt many have good things, yet most of us expend tons of energy to rationalize another drink or the ability to moderate a drink, why? Is it the psychology that we are missing out. Is it a broken reward motivation pathway system? The chemical changes in our brain or a combination of the above?
Member
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 3,359
Originally Posted by caboblanco
the one thing I still long for with booze is that romantic escape...the perfect drinking experience..that experience was few and far between at the end of my drinking career..i liked to get mellow..I still do..i can put myself in that state of mind sometimes naturally
I too am learning to get there naturally. I say learning as this is a process and when life thaws us lemons without the substances its really tough to make lemonade.
EndGame
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: New York, NY
Posts: 4,677
Yeah, I have a bias around moderation, if only because I've too often witnessed what have been devastating results. That, and I never tried to moderate, nor did it ever occur to me to do so. I either stop or I drink until I can't drink any more.
My only attempts at anything resembling moderation were when I'd promise myself that I'd get to bed early when I had something important to do the next day, but set no limits on the amount of my intake. To the best of my recollection, I never succeeded. The best I ever did was, "Okay, if I get to sleep right now, I still have two hours before I need to get to work/important appointment."
My only attempts at anything resembling moderation were when I'd promise myself that I'd get to bed early when I had something important to do the next day, but set no limits on the amount of my intake. To the best of my recollection, I never succeeded. The best I ever did was, "Okay, if I get to sleep right now, I still have two hours before I need to get to work/important appointment."
Member
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Nutmegger
Posts: 1,799
My p-doc was probing me in our last session. She seems to be a bit thrown by the fact that I am clean and sober off benzos and alcohol for over 8 months with no formal program. She worked at Silver Hill for years so this is her field. I woke up one day, said enough and ended up in a 30 day rehab. Maybe it was overkill, but it certainly woke me up.
I haven't had a single benzo or Ambien craving, and I was on a lot, for a long time. There was an element in her questioning that sort of led me to believe that she is trying to find a box to fit me into. (Of course everyone reading this will think it's my AV looking for a crack in the armor, I have already run it through that sieve, it's not). She started asking me how much I really drank every day, and how I would rate myself as far as alcohol abuse goes.
My lifestyle supported my habit. I had the ability to pawn off a lot of my responsibilities onto other people. Also, as I have mentioned, I grew up in a household that was rife with AA/sobriety talk.
Without opening up the whole genetic question, maybe there is something to consider that I am one of the first generation of children who had parents in recovery. I can't help but think that at least exposure to this was exceedingly important in my realization of where I was headed. So maybe there is a change in the fact that more people are beginning to understand the progressive nature of substance abuse, a first generational aspect.
One thought about being well heeled and being in treatment. Often such circles are highly competitive. Admitting to any sort of defeat and being anything less than an alpha (admitting to unmanageability) could be construed as a more soul baring process by one's peers. I wonder if the unwillingness to admit defeat comes into play. I am often shocked by how highly successful people are able to sustain a front whilst continuing on a treacherous drinking path. But, I know the agony that goes with trying to hold that fissure together.
I haven't had a single benzo or Ambien craving, and I was on a lot, for a long time. There was an element in her questioning that sort of led me to believe that she is trying to find a box to fit me into. (Of course everyone reading this will think it's my AV looking for a crack in the armor, I have already run it through that sieve, it's not). She started asking me how much I really drank every day, and how I would rate myself as far as alcohol abuse goes.
My lifestyle supported my habit. I had the ability to pawn off a lot of my responsibilities onto other people. Also, as I have mentioned, I grew up in a household that was rife with AA/sobriety talk.
Without opening up the whole genetic question, maybe there is something to consider that I am one of the first generation of children who had parents in recovery. I can't help but think that at least exposure to this was exceedingly important in my realization of where I was headed. So maybe there is a change in the fact that more people are beginning to understand the progressive nature of substance abuse, a first generational aspect.
One thought about being well heeled and being in treatment. Often such circles are highly competitive. Admitting to any sort of defeat and being anything less than an alpha (admitting to unmanageability) could be construed as a more soul baring process by one's peers. I wonder if the unwillingness to admit defeat comes into play. I am often shocked by how highly successful people are able to sustain a front whilst continuing on a treacherous drinking path. But, I know the agony that goes with trying to hold that fissure together.
Member
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Out in the Sticks
Posts: 1,788
I would agree 100% with the years of life having something to do with moderating .
I used to drink way too much ,as well as a friend ,he is over 50 ,im not quite there .
ALOT , of the people I know that used to drink 12-18 beers a day drink none now .
My attempt to moderate did not fail -in and of its self - I needed ALL of my brain power to get my work done .
One thing not in this "STUDY " ,That im surprised was not talked about .
People of the higher income and better educated class ,CAN NOT drink and do what we need to get done .
Or people chose to not drink to advance their studies and jobs ?
I used to drink way too much ,as well as a friend ,he is over 50 ,im not quite there .
ALOT , of the people I know that used to drink 12-18 beers a day drink none now .
My attempt to moderate did not fail -in and of its self - I needed ALL of my brain power to get my work done .
One thing not in this "STUDY " ,That im surprised was not talked about .
People of the higher income and better educated class ,CAN NOT drink and do what we need to get done .
Or people chose to not drink to advance their studies and jobs ?
Member
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Texas
Posts: 224
I think moderation would be a difficult thing to measure. Let's say a person drinks 2-3 beers several times per week (2-3 beers is inline with medical standards for an adult male). But let's say this person gets drunk 2-3 per year (or heck, even less) - does that person fail to moderate according to the term when he becomes intoxicated occasionally?
Member
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Los Angeles,CA
Posts: 150
I don't know what to think but I do wonder about the severity of my alcoholism compared to others on here. I remember reading DSM IV back in college and not noticing there was "alcohol dependence" and "alcohol abuse". Just by reading the description of the latter, I feel that since I never suffered the dreaded withdrawals that some others have gone through during their first days and I tended to be more of a once a week binge drinker that got me into trouble rather than an everyday, wake up drinking kind of alcoholic.
I am not sure but do people on here get an official diagnosis from doctors that they are dependent alcoholics or abuse alcoholics or do some people just decide on their own what they are without the official doctors diagnosis?
I never been formally diagnosed as anything but I just got fed up with all the issues that occurred during binge drinking periods that I figured I'm better off not drinking anything at all. However I don't think I suffered from any serious withdrawals my first days of sobriety just I was tired and I obviously felt better, I just didn't suffer and I didn't need medical assistance.
Perhaps my alcoholism is of a milder degree, not that it means I should attempt to drink moderately of course, I just never thought of alcoholism as various degrees before. Maybe they do exist? Either way it's an interesting article that invites good discussion amongst us.
I am not sure but do people on here get an official diagnosis from doctors that they are dependent alcoholics or abuse alcoholics or do some people just decide on their own what they are without the official doctors diagnosis?
I never been formally diagnosed as anything but I just got fed up with all the issues that occurred during binge drinking periods that I figured I'm better off not drinking anything at all. However I don't think I suffered from any serious withdrawals my first days of sobriety just I was tired and I obviously felt better, I just didn't suffer and I didn't need medical assistance.
Perhaps my alcoholism is of a milder degree, not that it means I should attempt to drink moderately of course, I just never thought of alcoholism as various degrees before. Maybe they do exist? Either way it's an interesting article that invites good discussion amongst us.
voices ca**y
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: St. Paul Minnesota
Posts: 4,360
Originally Posted by SilentCinemaFan
Perhaps my alcoholism is of a milder degree, not that it means I should attempt to drink moderately of course, I just never thought of alcoholism as various degrees before. Maybe they do exist? Either way it's an interesting article that invites good discussion amongst us.
Member
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Kansas
Posts: 82
I don't know about stages of alcoholism, but I know moderation is not an option for me. One drink or two drinks is not what I want. I've done that a few times and it sucks. Absolutely just gets me irritable and knowing that I've had a drink or two but can't have more is just horrible. It goes straight from one drink to all of it. I want all of it, every time, and the one thing I've learned that I know to be true is that if I have one drink I have no control over what will happen next and I will get enough somehow, some way. I don't have a problem with others who drink in moderation. Drinking ceased to be fun for me a long time ago. If it can still be fun for others more power to them. I don't know that I have it in me to stop again, and I really don't want to find out.
Member
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,949
Originally Posted by SilentCinemaFan
Perhaps my alcoholism is of a milder degree, not that it means I should attempt to drink moderately of course, I just never thought of alcoholism as various degrees before. Maybe they do exist? Either way it's an interesting article that invites good discussion amongst us.
voices ca**y
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: St. Paul Minnesota
Posts: 4,360
Here is one. Take a break from googeling liberals and great sex Cabo. If you find a good like share it though.
Behaviors of Alcoholism: a Progressive List
The Early Stages
•You start sneaking drinks or minimizing how much you actually consume
•You start to feel preoccupied with drinking
•You start gulping drinks - especially that first one
•You stop talking about your drinking with most people (drinking buddies excepted) - you’d just rather not bring it up
•You start having blackouts
•Your tolerance goes up
•You start drinking before and after social drinking occasions
•You start drinking as a way to relieve uncomfortable emotions/stress, etc.
•You start feeling uncomfortable in social situations that don’t allow alcohol
•You start to feel a loss of control over how much you drink (sometimes you stay out way later than you had intended on, for example)
•You start to lie to others about how much you drink
•Your habits of drinking as a way to relieve negative emotions get more entrenched
Middle Stages
•You start hiding your alcohol, or making sure you’ll always have a good supply
•You start to NEED a first drink of the day
•You try to force yourself into periods of abstinence (you go on the wagon)
•Other people start commenting on how much you’re drinking
•You start becoming occasionally aggressive or grandiose
•You start to feel real guilt about your drinking
•Eating becomes less important than drinking
•Personal relationships become less important than drinking
•You start to develop unreasonable feelings of resentment
•You start thinking of getting away temporarily as way to stop drinking
•Your sex drive diminishes
•Your drinking leads to your quitting or losing your job
•You start feeling overly jealous
•You get into a habit of solo drinking
•You get morning shakes or tremors
•You start drinking early in the morning
•Your guilt has blossomed into constant remorse
•You have multi-day drinking binges
•Your thinking becomes scattered and impaired
•You start drinking with people you wouldn’t have associated with earlier in your life
Late Stages
•Your alcohol tolerance goes down
•You start experiencing fear that is not attached to any outside definable threat - just vague fear
•You are no longer able to work or hold down a job
•Your physical condition/health deteriorates
•Your lose your sense of morality - start doing things you wouldn’t have considered previously
•You are hospitalized for your drinking
•Your remorse becomes a constant feeling
•You can no longer count on any family or friends to help you
Read more: A Timeline Charting the Progressive Nature of Alcoholism
Behaviors of Alcoholism: a Progressive List
The Early Stages
•You start sneaking drinks or minimizing how much you actually consume
•You start to feel preoccupied with drinking
•You start gulping drinks - especially that first one
•You stop talking about your drinking with most people (drinking buddies excepted) - you’d just rather not bring it up
•You start having blackouts
•Your tolerance goes up
•You start drinking before and after social drinking occasions
•You start drinking as a way to relieve uncomfortable emotions/stress, etc.
•You start feeling uncomfortable in social situations that don’t allow alcohol
•You start to feel a loss of control over how much you drink (sometimes you stay out way later than you had intended on, for example)
•You start to lie to others about how much you drink
•Your habits of drinking as a way to relieve negative emotions get more entrenched
Middle Stages
•You start hiding your alcohol, or making sure you’ll always have a good supply
•You start to NEED a first drink of the day
•You try to force yourself into periods of abstinence (you go on the wagon)
•Other people start commenting on how much you’re drinking
•You start becoming occasionally aggressive or grandiose
•You start to feel real guilt about your drinking
•Eating becomes less important than drinking
•Personal relationships become less important than drinking
•You start to develop unreasonable feelings of resentment
•You start thinking of getting away temporarily as way to stop drinking
•Your sex drive diminishes
•Your drinking leads to your quitting or losing your job
•You start feeling overly jealous
•You get into a habit of solo drinking
•You get morning shakes or tremors
•You start drinking early in the morning
•Your guilt has blossomed into constant remorse
•You have multi-day drinking binges
•Your thinking becomes scattered and impaired
•You start drinking with people you wouldn’t have associated with earlier in your life
Late Stages
•Your alcohol tolerance goes down
•You start experiencing fear that is not attached to any outside definable threat - just vague fear
•You are no longer able to work or hold down a job
•Your physical condition/health deteriorates
•Your lose your sense of morality - start doing things you wouldn’t have considered previously
•You are hospitalized for your drinking
•Your remorse becomes a constant feeling
•You can no longer count on any family or friends to help you
Read more: A Timeline Charting the Progressive Nature of Alcoholism
Member
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,949
Originally Posted by silentrun
Here is one. Take a break from googeling liberals and great sex Cabo. If you find a good like share it though.
Behaviors of Alcoholism: a Progressive List
The Early Stages
•You start sneaking drinks or minimizing how much you actually consume
•You start to feel preoccupied with drinking
•You start gulping drinks - especially that first one
•You stop talking about your drinking with most people (drinking buddies excepted) - you’d just rather not bring it up
•You start having blackouts
•Your tolerance goes up
•You start drinking before and after social drinking occasions
•You start drinking as a way to relieve uncomfortable emotions/stress, etc.
•You start feeling uncomfortable in social situations that don’t allow alcohol
•You start to feel a loss of control over how much you drink (sometimes you stay out way later than you had intended on, for example)
•You start to lie to others about how much you drink
•Your habits of drinking as a way to relieve negative emotions get more entrenched
Middle Stages
•You start hiding your alcohol, or making sure you’ll always have a good supply
•You start to NEED a first drink of the day
•You try to force yourself into periods of abstinence (you go on the wagon)
•Other people start commenting on how much you’re drinking
•You start becoming occasionally aggressive or grandiose
•You start to feel real guilt about your drinking
•Eating becomes less important than drinking
•Personal relationships become less important than drinking
•You start to develop unreasonable feelings of resentment
•You start thinking of getting away temporarily as way to stop drinking
•Your sex drive diminishes
•Your drinking leads to your quitting or losing your job
•You start feeling overly jealous
•You get into a habit of solo drinking
•You get morning shakes or tremors
•You start drinking early in the morning
•Your guilt has blossomed into constant remorse
•You have multi-day drinking binges
•Your thinking becomes scattered and impaired
•You start drinking with people you wouldn’t have associated with earlier in your life
Late Stages
•Your alcohol tolerance goes down
•You start experiencing fear that is not attached to any outside definable threat - just vague fear
•You are no longer able to work or hold down a job
•Your physical condition/health deteriorates
•Your lose your sense of morality - start doing things you wouldn’t have considered previously
•You are hospitalized for your drinking
•Your remorse becomes a constant feeling
•You can no longer count on any family or friends to help you
Read more: A Timeline Charting the Progressive Nature of Alcoholism
Behaviors of Alcoholism: a Progressive List
The Early Stages
•You start sneaking drinks or minimizing how much you actually consume
•You start to feel preoccupied with drinking
•You start gulping drinks - especially that first one
•You stop talking about your drinking with most people (drinking buddies excepted) - you’d just rather not bring it up
•You start having blackouts
•Your tolerance goes up
•You start drinking before and after social drinking occasions
•You start drinking as a way to relieve uncomfortable emotions/stress, etc.
•You start feeling uncomfortable in social situations that don’t allow alcohol
•You start to feel a loss of control over how much you drink (sometimes you stay out way later than you had intended on, for example)
•You start to lie to others about how much you drink
•Your habits of drinking as a way to relieve negative emotions get more entrenched
Middle Stages
•You start hiding your alcohol, or making sure you’ll always have a good supply
•You start to NEED a first drink of the day
•You try to force yourself into periods of abstinence (you go on the wagon)
•Other people start commenting on how much you’re drinking
•You start becoming occasionally aggressive or grandiose
•You start to feel real guilt about your drinking
•Eating becomes less important than drinking
•Personal relationships become less important than drinking
•You start to develop unreasonable feelings of resentment
•You start thinking of getting away temporarily as way to stop drinking
•Your sex drive diminishes
•Your drinking leads to your quitting or losing your job
•You start feeling overly jealous
•You get into a habit of solo drinking
•You get morning shakes or tremors
•You start drinking early in the morning
•Your guilt has blossomed into constant remorse
•You have multi-day drinking binges
•Your thinking becomes scattered and impaired
•You start drinking with people you wouldn’t have associated with earlier in your life
Late Stages
•Your alcohol tolerance goes down
•You start experiencing fear that is not attached to any outside definable threat - just vague fear
•You are no longer able to work or hold down a job
•Your physical condition/health deteriorates
•Your lose your sense of morality - start doing things you wouldn’t have considered previously
•You are hospitalized for your drinking
•Your remorse becomes a constant feeling
•You can no longer count on any family or friends to help you
Read more: A Timeline Charting the Progressive Nature of Alcoholism
voices ca**y
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: St. Paul Minnesota
Posts: 4,360
Here is a good one. It includes the "adaptive" stage. I remember that stage fondly.
5 Stages of Alcoholism | Alcohol Self-Help News
5 Stages of Alcoholism | Alcohol Self-Help News
Member
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,949
Originally Posted by silentrun
Here is a good one. It includes the "adaptive" stage. I remember that stage fondly.
5 Stages of Alcoholism | Alcohol Self-Help News
5 Stages of Alcoholism | Alcohol Self-Help News
The Four Stages of Addiction
Member
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 3,359
Originally Posted by Crossfitdad
I think moderation would be a difficult thing to measure. Let's say a person drinks 2-3 beers several times per week (2-3 beers is inline with medical standards for an adult male). But let's say this person gets drunk 2-3 per year (or heck, even less) - does that person fail to moderate according to the term when he becomes intoxicated occasionally?
Member
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: SE Arizona
Posts: 1,099
Well over thirty years ago I quit drinking. At that time, I was an alcohol abuser but was in no way alcohol dependent physiologically. A few years ago I started drinking again. This time I quickly passed through the "social" drinking phase and found myself back at the alcohol abuse stage. I didn't like seeing myself as an alcohol abuser so I decided to quit again. I am in my mid-70's now and it has been much harder to quit this time around.
I could easily move into alcohol dependence: many of my immediate family were full blown alcoholics; several have died of their alcoholism. I can sense the same potential in me.
I think that once a person has been away from alcohol for five years or so it is easier to stay away from it; you don't think about it as much. But, from my personal experience, a person with alcoholic potential is not "cured" after five years nor after fifteen or thirty years. Hard won sobriety is a precious thing and to risk it in an attempt to become a "social" drinker is foolish at the very least and for me, bordered on idiocy.
I could easily move into alcohol dependence: many of my immediate family were full blown alcoholics; several have died of their alcoholism. I can sense the same potential in me.
I think that once a person has been away from alcohol for five years or so it is easier to stay away from it; you don't think about it as much. But, from my personal experience, a person with alcoholic potential is not "cured" after five years nor after fifteen or thirty years. Hard won sobriety is a precious thing and to risk it in an attempt to become a "social" drinker is foolish at the very least and for me, bordered on idiocy.
Member
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Los Angeles,CA
Posts: 150
I agree, I don't think it matters what stage of alcoholism you are in, if you find yourself unable to moderately drink responsibly then it's best to just remove the drinking from your life.
I heard if you were an early stage case and stopped for a few years then you start again it's harder the second time around. So it's best to just leave it be especially if we have parents and grandparents were also alcoholics.
I'm just lucky to come into sobriety without severe withdrawals and PAWS. A lot of times a major relapse into the deep end again will result in a more steeper climb out.
I think that's the one thing I really learned from reading everybody's experiences with this. That's why this site is very useful, it reminds you sometimes how lucky you are, and it serves as a warning that it gets a lot worse if you continue drinking and it also reminds you how you aren't alone if you find yourself in a big mess. Most importantly it's very supportive when you need a high five or a "thank you".
I heard if you were an early stage case and stopped for a few years then you start again it's harder the second time around. So it's best to just leave it be especially if we have parents and grandparents were also alcoholics.
I'm just lucky to come into sobriety without severe withdrawals and PAWS. A lot of times a major relapse into the deep end again will result in a more steeper climb out.
I think that's the one thing I really learned from reading everybody's experiences with this. That's why this site is very useful, it reminds you sometimes how lucky you are, and it serves as a warning that it gets a lot worse if you continue drinking and it also reminds you how you aren't alone if you find yourself in a big mess. Most importantly it's very supportive when you need a high five or a "thank you".
Currently Active Users Viewing this Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
