Overcoming cynicism
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Overcoming cynicism
I'm approaching two years sober but still have this cynical attitude towards sobriety and life in general. Part of it is being middle aged and all the kids being grown and out of the house. I no longer feel driven by personal goals. It's like I'm just staying sober now for purely selfish reasons but haven't filled the void with anything of value.
Any suggestions on how you found new joy in sobriety and improved your outlook on life? I'm especially interested in hearing from 40+ folks.
Thanks
Any suggestions on how you found new joy in sobriety and improved your outlook on life? I'm especially interested in hearing from 40+ folks.
Thanks
Member
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Earth
Posts: 1,791
You just filled the void some. First, congratulations on the grown kids being out of the house. That combination doesn't always work. I'm just approaching my time for that as well, so I don't know that I can contribute a bunch, but will follow your thread. I think one of the ***very simple*** things that I ***might*** do if I really had my own time that I wanted to enjoy plus give value to other is have a vegetable garden and give the crop away to various people.
Sober Alcoholic
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 3,539
It seems to me that your post goes to the heart of the problem (for many if not for most alcoholics).
There is a need which alcohol filled, and when the alcohol is gone, there is void. For me it was a void I experienced long after I had taken my last drink. It was not physical or even so much a psychological void, but a void I would characterize as having more to do with a lack of meaningfulness to everything. I must admit, this also manifested itself as cynicism.
I had to fill that void. I went to AA, but I just could not buy into most of it. I was an agnostic and the higher power thing just did not cut it.
Finally I found a way to begin to start a spiritual search in a way that was meaningful to me, as an agnostic. That was the beginning of the end. It was the only thing that worked for me in the long hall.
I have posted this link before but I think it goes to the heart of the problem, just as your OP does. It’s a letter from one of the most brilliant men of the past 100 years to the founder of AA. Notice that the language he uses is so similar to yours (“void” and “search for wholeness”).
My advice is to read it with a completely open mind. Dr. Carl Jung's Letter To Bill W., Jan 30, 1961
All the best to you
There is a need which alcohol filled, and when the alcohol is gone, there is void. For me it was a void I experienced long after I had taken my last drink. It was not physical or even so much a psychological void, but a void I would characterize as having more to do with a lack of meaningfulness to everything. I must admit, this also manifested itself as cynicism.
I had to fill that void. I went to AA, but I just could not buy into most of it. I was an agnostic and the higher power thing just did not cut it.
Finally I found a way to begin to start a spiritual search in a way that was meaningful to me, as an agnostic. That was the beginning of the end. It was the only thing that worked for me in the long hall.
I have posted this link before but I think it goes to the heart of the problem, just as your OP does. It’s a letter from one of the most brilliant men of the past 100 years to the founder of AA. Notice that the language he uses is so similar to yours (“void” and “search for wholeness”).
My advice is to read it with a completely open mind. Dr. Carl Jung's Letter To Bill W., Jan 30, 1961
All the best to you
Member
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Midwest
Posts: 807
I did not start drinking until my daughter left for college. It had always been just the two of us and all her activities filled my life. I was lonely, I started drinking and it progressed. I have only been sober about four and a half months but find joy in the quiet and slower pace to life. I have struggling with some depression lately but this was an exceptionally bad year and the holidays are tough. I have started reading again, taking naps, walking the dogs, bubble baths, and volunteering once in awhile. I actually landed a job after about 8 weeks of sobriety and have been trying to really excel at it, it is crazy since I work in health insurance. My daughter has graduated college and has a career and house of her own about 40 minutes away. I still see her frequently when our schedules allow, she works 12 hour overnight shifts so it can be difficult but we make time. I would say that once the kids are gone it is normal to go through a mourning period but it is just a normal stage in life, you need to find a new normal and a new routine. Sometimes my daughter comes to my house before I get off work to avoid rush hour. I find myself resenting it on occasion as I miss my normal routine when I get home. How things change :-) Hang in there, you will figure it out.
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Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Central Massachusetts
Posts: 2,051
Originally Posted by awuh1 
It seems to me that your post goes to the heart of the problem (for many if not for most alcoholics).
There is a need which alcohol filled, and when the alcohol is gone, there is void. For me it was a void I experienced long after I had taken my last drink. It was not physical or even so much a psychological void, but a void I would characterize as having more to do with a lack of meaningfulness to everything. I must admit, this also manifested itself as cynicism.
I had to fill that void. I went to AA, but I just could not buy into most of it. I was an agnostic and the higher power thing just did not cut it.
Finally I found a way to begin to start a spiritual search in a way that was meaningful to me, as an agnostic. That was the beginning of the end. It was the only thing that worked for me in the long hall.
I have posted this link before but I think it goes to the heart of the problem, just as your OP does. It’s a letter from one of the most brilliant men of the past 100 years to the founder of AA. Notice that the language he uses is so similar to yours (“void” and “search for wholeness”).
My advice is to read it with a completely open mind. Dr. Carl Jung's Letter To Bill W., Jan 30, 1961
All the best to you
There is a need which alcohol filled, and when the alcohol is gone, there is void. For me it was a void I experienced long after I had taken my last drink. It was not physical or even so much a psychological void, but a void I would characterize as having more to do with a lack of meaningfulness to everything. I must admit, this also manifested itself as cynicism.
I had to fill that void. I went to AA, but I just could not buy into most of it. I was an agnostic and the higher power thing just did not cut it.
Finally I found a way to begin to start a spiritual search in a way that was meaningful to me, as an agnostic. That was the beginning of the end. It was the only thing that worked for me in the long hall.
I have posted this link before but I think it goes to the heart of the problem, just as your OP does. It’s a letter from one of the most brilliant men of the past 100 years to the founder of AA. Notice that the language he uses is so similar to yours (“void” and “search for wholeness”).
My advice is to read it with a completely open mind. Dr. Carl Jung's Letter To Bill W., Jan 30, 1961
All the best to you
Life Health Prosperity
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Louisana
Posts: 6,752
Johnston, I'm approaching two years sober? You are FANTASTIC. Congratulations. I'm working on filling the void myself Johnston. As a drunk for 42 years I deprived myself of a formal education, and am making plans to go back to college when I retire. I have been seriously reading about quantum mechanics, molecular biology, and stuff like that. Beginning to make some some progress at understanding some of it. Rootin for ya. 
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Originally Posted by neferkamichael
Johnston, I'm approaching two years sober? You are FANTASTIC. Congratulations. I'm working on filling the void myself Johnston. As a drunk for 42 years I deprived myself of a formal education, and am making plans to go back to college when I retire. I have been seriously reading about quantum mechanics, molecular biology, and stuff like that. Beginning to make some some progress at understanding some of it. Rootin for ya.
]
]
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Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Zion, Illinois
Posts: 3,411
Originally Posted by Johnston
I'm approaching two years sober but still have this cynical attitude towards sobriety and life in general. Part of it is being middle aged and all the kids being grown and out of the house. I no longer feel driven by personal goals. It's like I'm just staying sober now for purely selfish reasons but haven't filled the void with anything of value.
Any suggestions on how you found new joy in sobriety and improved your outlook on life? I'm especially interested in hearing from 40+ folks.
Thanks
Any suggestions on how you found new joy in sobriety and improved your outlook on life? I'm especially interested in hearing from 40+ folks.
Thanks
My wife and I are both in AA. She for 37 years and myself for 36 years. We have 3 kids, all with there own families, 10 grandkids, and 4 great-grandkids. We'll be married 51 years this month, I'm going to turn 71 this month and my wife 70 in January. My suggestion would be to keep working on sobriety long enough to get grateful for what sobriety will bring you and also, put a check on your attitude. Sobriety is a gift from God. It's not something I deserved because of the good deeds I did while drinking. When you realize that fact, hopefully you'll be grateful enough to open the gift and use it well.
EndGame
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: New York, NY
Posts: 4,677
Hi awuh, and also to the OP.
One of my areas of expertise and a large part of my practice is existential psychotherapy. Discovering, creating, defining meaning in a world that is indifferent to my struggles, and living a life that culminates in death. Why do we get up each day to struggle with the same conflicts we struggled with the day before? And the day before that? And then again tomorrow, and all the tomorrows after the next one?
For many people -- and this is not always a conscious process -- the certainty of death makes life something of a 'charade,' and, consequentially, life into an absurd predicament. The burdens of life both work against and are part and parcel of discovering or defining meaning. All the struggles one encounters have no apparent meaning or purpose since they will be repeated tomorrow. Life is little more than a series of choices, defining moments that dictate how one's days would progress, without being able to alter the human condition.
There appears to us an innate incompatibility between being human and the indifference toward our struggles by the world we live in. This basic incompatibility between these two dimensions can be summarized in this way: On one side, a human being who longs for meaning, purpose, significance; on the other, a world that responds with nothing but indifference -- nothing but brute raw matter in motion.
Yet this absurd existence is only a starting point, nothing more. It is neither possible nor consistent to limit oneself to the idea that nothing has meaning and we must despair of everything. As soon as we say that all is nonsense, we express something that has sense. Denying that the world has meaning involves suppressing all value judgments. Yet, living is in itself a value judgment.
When we stare into the abyss, we in effect cry out that we need to do something else, that there must be more than this, that something else has to be tried.
The only legitimate question for me in my sobriety, in my life, is whether or not my life is meaningful enough to continue living...is my life worth living? There are ways 'out' of this, and all of them include going all the way 'in'. We can embrace the attitude that both tragedy and greatness fulfill our desire for purpose, embracing an indifferent and therefore absurd world, which includes identifying what needs to be discarded, what it is in life that's worth defying and battling, and then doing whatever is necessary to setting things right.
The world is 'broken' in so many ways, we could live a thousand lives without being able to list them all. Justice is not perfectly present. However, working within natural limits and using the resources around us, we can strive to overhaul what needs to be repaired. Saying "yes" to life means a "yes" to healing life. In the world of flesh-and-blood people, life can be embraced as enigmatic. We can, essentially, accept how opposites like 'yes' and 'no' must somehow be held together in the seeming incompatible dimensions of individual life struggling in an indifferent world.
The search for meaning often becomes more relevant, more intense as we age and when we reflect on where and what our choices have brought us later in life. And when we are inevitably approaching the end. Death may not be any less welcome, but it is certainly more palpable.
Again, there is a way 'out'. Identify what needs to be met with a 'no', and then make a commitment to set things right.
Perhaps paradoxically, it is a uniquely human trait to both embrace and to run from this position. We strive for freedom, but often shudder in the shadow of its awesome responsibilities, settling for a life of quiet despair.
There is a way out.
One of my areas of expertise and a large part of my practice is existential psychotherapy. Discovering, creating, defining meaning in a world that is indifferent to my struggles, and living a life that culminates in death. Why do we get up each day to struggle with the same conflicts we struggled with the day before? And the day before that? And then again tomorrow, and all the tomorrows after the next one?
For many people -- and this is not always a conscious process -- the certainty of death makes life something of a 'charade,' and, consequentially, life into an absurd predicament. The burdens of life both work against and are part and parcel of discovering or defining meaning. All the struggles one encounters have no apparent meaning or purpose since they will be repeated tomorrow. Life is little more than a series of choices, defining moments that dictate how one's days would progress, without being able to alter the human condition.
There appears to us an innate incompatibility between being human and the indifference toward our struggles by the world we live in. This basic incompatibility between these two dimensions can be summarized in this way: On one side, a human being who longs for meaning, purpose, significance; on the other, a world that responds with nothing but indifference -- nothing but brute raw matter in motion.
Yet this absurd existence is only a starting point, nothing more. It is neither possible nor consistent to limit oneself to the idea that nothing has meaning and we must despair of everything. As soon as we say that all is nonsense, we express something that has sense. Denying that the world has meaning involves suppressing all value judgments. Yet, living is in itself a value judgment.
When we stare into the abyss, we in effect cry out that we need to do something else, that there must be more than this, that something else has to be tried.
The only legitimate question for me in my sobriety, in my life, is whether or not my life is meaningful enough to continue living...is my life worth living? There are ways 'out' of this, and all of them include going all the way 'in'. We can embrace the attitude that both tragedy and greatness fulfill our desire for purpose, embracing an indifferent and therefore absurd world, which includes identifying what needs to be discarded, what it is in life that's worth defying and battling, and then doing whatever is necessary to setting things right.
The world is 'broken' in so many ways, we could live a thousand lives without being able to list them all. Justice is not perfectly present. However, working within natural limits and using the resources around us, we can strive to overhaul what needs to be repaired. Saying "yes" to life means a "yes" to healing life. In the world of flesh-and-blood people, life can be embraced as enigmatic. We can, essentially, accept how opposites like 'yes' and 'no' must somehow be held together in the seeming incompatible dimensions of individual life struggling in an indifferent world.
The search for meaning often becomes more relevant, more intense as we age and when we reflect on where and what our choices have brought us later in life. And when we are inevitably approaching the end. Death may not be any less welcome, but it is certainly more palpable.
Again, there is a way 'out'. Identify what needs to be met with a 'no', and then make a commitment to set things right.
Perhaps paradoxically, it is a uniquely human trait to both embrace and to run from this position. We strive for freedom, but often shudder in the shadow of its awesome responsibilities, settling for a life of quiet despair.
There is a way out.
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Originally Posted by KateL
I'm not so brainy or scientific, but had to stop work because of disability, so took a creative writing course and found out I could write 
Handy when you're stuck indoors a lot.
Handy when you're stuck indoors a lot.Member
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Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Central Massachusetts
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@endgame,
Awesome post. You expressed very elegantly in words many of my feelings as of late. Yes, mortality itself often gives me angst and I see very much why addiction was such a warm blanket all those years. I read the bible a few years ago and found myself drawn the most to Ecclesiastes. The despondence of the writer struck a chord even at a time in my life where I thought everything was just grand. Last year I read Hesse's Steppenwolf and it too cut deep. I feel somewhat like a Harry Haller at this point...materially comfortable but adrift.
Awesome post. You expressed very elegantly in words many of my feelings as of late. Yes, mortality itself often gives me angst and I see very much why addiction was such a warm blanket all those years. I read the bible a few years ago and found myself drawn the most to Ecclesiastes. The despondence of the writer struck a chord even at a time in my life where I thought everything was just grand. Last year I read Hesse's Steppenwolf and it too cut deep. I feel somewhat like a Harry Haller at this point...materially comfortable but adrift.
Member
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Scandinavia
Posts: 1,344
I do understand your reflection, but no advice to offer.
I still have my boys living here – but it is matter of months for one of them and probably a year longer for the other.
I will also need to find out what I will put up with my self.
I must though admit that the next half year will be work, recovering and physical training – but I know I need to find some sustainable goals.
I do see my life as by large extend determined by necessity and the alcoholism as fleeing from same – I do not know where the future will lead me – I kind of like the undetermined insecurity though
I still have my boys living here – but it is matter of months for one of them and probably a year longer for the other.
I will also need to find out what I will put up with my self.
I must though admit that the next half year will be work, recovering and physical training – but I know I need to find some sustainable goals.
I do see my life as by large extend determined by necessity and the alcoholism as fleeing from same – I do not know where the future will lead me – I kind of like the undetermined insecurity though
EndGame
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: New York, NY
Posts: 4,677
Originally Posted by Johnston
@endgame,
Awesome post. You expressed very elegantly in words many of my feelings as of late. Yes, mortality itself often gives me angst and I see very much why addiction was such a warm blanket all those years. I read the bible a few years ago and found myself drawn the most to Ecclesiastes. The despondence of the writer struck a chord even at a time in my life where I thought everything was just grand. Last year I read Hesse's Steppenwolf and it too cut deep. I feel somewhat like a Harry Haller at this point...materially comfortable but adrift.
Awesome post. You expressed very elegantly in words many of my feelings as of late. Yes, mortality itself often gives me angst and I see very much why addiction was such a warm blanket all those years. I read the bible a few years ago and found myself drawn the most to Ecclesiastes. The despondence of the writer struck a chord even at a time in my life where I thought everything was just grand. Last year I read Hesse's Steppenwolf and it too cut deep. I feel somewhat like a Harry Haller at this point...materially comfortable but adrift.
Steppenwolf is one of my all-time favorite books. Were you able to read it in German? As you know, the opening pages are about the seemingly mundane choice of whether to live or die.
Since you liked Steppewolf, I'd also recommend Albert Camus' The Stranger, and Viktor Frankl's Man's Search for Meaning. Frankl's book is a compelling read. After telling his story, he describes a kind of psychotherapy he developedfrom his personal experiences, 'logotherapy', that is accessible to people who aren't even in therapy.
The fact that you're openly struggling with the issues you describe is a way of creating meaning for yourself, though it may not always feel that way.
You're on the road less traveled.
Member
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: des moines ia
Posts: 362
Originally Posted by KateL
I'm not so brainy or scientific, but had to stop work because of disability, so took a creative writing course and found out I could write Handy when you're stuck indoors a lot.
Handy when you're stuck indoors a lot.Johnston, I understand. No solutions, but I understand! Life has kicked me in the teeth too many times. I often ask myself "why am I still trying to be a nice guy"? I guess it's simply the thought of how miserable I'd be if I went back to drinking. Some times all we can do is sit on the floor, put a blanket over our shoulders and be thankful for the simple comforts in life.
What I have to be aware of is my tendency to compare my insides to other peoples outsides.
Best wishes,
Ron
Sober Alcoholic
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 3,539
Endgame, there is much in your post that characterized my past struggles and perceptions. I agree that “this absurd existence” is just a starting point. It’s a perception, and in actuality, it’s an illusion.
I don’t agree that “The world is 'broken' in so many ways”. Perhaps that’s because I now see so much meaning in it. I don’t think I’m being Pollyannaish. There is no doubt a great deal of evil in the world. But what I formerly viewed as a broken, I now see as a struggle, and a meaningful one at that.
I did not get to this point without a struggle. I’m convinced that the struggle itself was, at least for me, absolutely necessary. It prompted a search to find that meaning, a “higher understanding” if you will.
That search required a certain degree of open-mindedness and tolerance which I did not previously have. The key to it I found in some words of Dr Bob. Perhaps you will also find them useful Jonhston.
"Tolerance furnishes, as a by-product, a greater freedom from the tendency to cling to preconceived ideas and stubbornly adhered-to opinions. In other words, it often promotes an open-mindedness that is vastly important - is, in fact, a prerequisite to the successful termination of any line of search, whether it be scientific or spiritual".
I don’t agree that “The world is 'broken' in so many ways”. Perhaps that’s because I now see so much meaning in it. I don’t think I’m being Pollyannaish. There is no doubt a great deal of evil in the world. But what I formerly viewed as a broken, I now see as a struggle, and a meaningful one at that.
I did not get to this point without a struggle. I’m convinced that the struggle itself was, at least for me, absolutely necessary. It prompted a search to find that meaning, a “higher understanding” if you will.
That search required a certain degree of open-mindedness and tolerance which I did not previously have. The key to it I found in some words of Dr Bob. Perhaps you will also find them useful Jonhston.
"Tolerance furnishes, as a by-product, a greater freedom from the tendency to cling to preconceived ideas and stubbornly adhered-to opinions. In other words, it often promotes an open-mindedness that is vastly important - is, in fact, a prerequisite to the successful termination of any line of search, whether it be scientific or spiritual".
Member
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Baton Rouge, La.
Posts: 15,238
My 2 little ones were just beginning grade
school when I entered recovery and about
8yrs. married. Thru the yrs. sober, I relocated
to Houston, watched my kids grow and mature
into young adults and was miserable in my
marriage due to lack of communication
and understanding. And very much home
sick of my hometown of Baton Rouge.
After my kids were well on their way with
college and careers, and after much praying
and continued recovery work, I was blessed
with a job interview back in Baton Rouge. It
would become my ticket back home and the
end of my 25 yr. marriage.
It ended respectively and both of us have since
remarried.
I did what was needed in my first phase of
life and now nearing 55 with 23 yrs. sobriety,
im happier, healthier and honest than I've
ever been in my entire life. It has been in the
laying of the solid ground work and foundation
in recovery that I have built my life upon that
has gotten me where I am today.
My new spouse and I own a beautiful red Harley
Road King that is triked out and ride to different
destinations enjoying the freedom of the outside,
nature and all it's beauty.
Never in my wildest dreams did I ever imagine
learning to ride a motorcycle nor enjoy riding
long distant in different kinds of weather. So
many experiences to treasure and appreciate.
My life in recovery is a journey and as long as
I have my anchors secured in my foundation
then im ready for whatever life surprises me
with.
school when I entered recovery and about
8yrs. married. Thru the yrs. sober, I relocated
to Houston, watched my kids grow and mature
into young adults and was miserable in my
marriage due to lack of communication
and understanding. And very much home
sick of my hometown of Baton Rouge.
After my kids were well on their way with
college and careers, and after much praying
and continued recovery work, I was blessed
with a job interview back in Baton Rouge. It
would become my ticket back home and the
end of my 25 yr. marriage.
It ended respectively and both of us have since
remarried.
I did what was needed in my first phase of
life and now nearing 55 with 23 yrs. sobriety,
im happier, healthier and honest than I've
ever been in my entire life. It has been in the
laying of the solid ground work and foundation
in recovery that I have built my life upon that
has gotten me where I am today.
My new spouse and I own a beautiful red Harley
Road King that is triked out and ride to different
destinations enjoying the freedom of the outside,
nature and all it's beauty.
Never in my wildest dreams did I ever imagine
learning to ride a motorcycle nor enjoy riding
long distant in different kinds of weather. So
many experiences to treasure and appreciate.
My life in recovery is a journey and as long as
I have my anchors secured in my foundation
then im ready for whatever life surprises me
with.
Kaleidoscope eyes
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: London
Posts: 5,243
Originally Posted by Johnston
Thanks, Kate. I have kept pretty busy since the kids have left. Got a financial certification last year and have been keeping up with my German. My wife and I also take day trips on the weekends. There's still a void though. I feel it especially now that the days are shorter and colder. It might be a dash of seasonal depression, who knows. In any event I'm trying to find healthy ways to deal with it.
Kaleidoscope eyes
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: London
Posts: 5,243
Originally Posted by ronf
Right there with ya kiddo. Disabled; Heart problems, stuck in the house.
Johnston, I understand. No solutions, but I understand! Life has kicked me in the teeth too many times. I often ask myself "why am I still trying to be a nice guy"? I guess it's simply the thought of how miserable I'd be if I went back to drinking. Some times all we can do is sit on the floor, put a blanket over our shoulders and be thankful for the simple comforts in life.
What I have to be aware of is my tendency to compare my insides to other peoples outsides.
Best wishes,
Ron
Johnston, I understand. No solutions, but I understand! Life has kicked me in the teeth too many times. I often ask myself "why am I still trying to be a nice guy"? I guess it's simply the thought of how miserable I'd be if I went back to drinking. Some times all we can do is sit on the floor, put a blanket over our shoulders and be thankful for the simple comforts in life.
What I have to be aware of is my tendency to compare my insides to other peoples outsides.
Best wishes,
Ron
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Central Massachusetts
Posts: 2,051
Originally Posted by EndGameNYC
Thanks Johnston. I'm happy my comments resonated with you.
Steppenwolf is one of my all-time favorite books. Were you able to read it in German? As you know, the opening pages are about the seemingly mundane choice of whether to live or die.
Since you liked Steppewolf, I'd also recommend Albert Camus' The Stranger, and Viktor Frankl's Man's Search for Meaning. Frankl's book is a compelling read. After telling his story, he describes a kind of psychotherapy he developedfrom his personal experiences, 'logotherapy', that is accessible to people who aren't even in therapy.
The fact that you're openly struggling with the issues you describe is a way of creating meaning for yourself, though it may not always feel that way.
You're on the road less traveled.
Steppenwolf is one of my all-time favorite books. Were you able to read it in German? As you know, the opening pages are about the seemingly mundane choice of whether to live or die.
Since you liked Steppewolf, I'd also recommend Albert Camus' The Stranger, and Viktor Frankl's Man's Search for Meaning. Frankl's book is a compelling read. After telling his story, he describes a kind of psychotherapy he developedfrom his personal experiences, 'logotherapy', that is accessible to people who aren't even in therapy.
The fact that you're openly struggling with the issues you describe is a way of creating meaning for yourself, though it may not always feel that way.
You're on the road less traveled.
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