Dee74

Just a reminder folks

This rule applies to everyone.

there are a lot of different recovery viewpoints here - and we insist on mutual respect, from everybody, for all of them.

It's the only way a site this size works.

You can hold whatever opinions you like, but you need to abide by the rules of this website for as long as you want to remain a member here.

thanks
D

DaveT

"Came to believe that a power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity" i heard it said recently an AA member was told he needed to do Step Three , he Said " well I cant really , i don't believe in God , The old timer said , " Look kid you don't need to believe in God to take step three ! Look he said turn your life and will over to that chair and i grant you will see an instant miracle " alright he said " i turn my life and my will over to that chair , now whats the miracle ? " the old timer said " well your life is no longer in the hands of an idiot ! " Alcoholism Kills , the body count proves it , I didn't want to do all kind of things when i was drinking , but the desire to stop and live began to out way my ego , when presented with recovery choices , some of us balk we think we can find an easier softer way , we say " well just how bad can this alcoholic death be ? " drinking yourself to death is like being kicked to death by rabbits , it just goes on and on and on , probably the reason so many end it before it happens.......

DaveT

For me No Human Power Could Have Relieved My Alcoholism - If you can get sober , stay sober and live joyous and free , by any method , thats awesome ! I couldn't i tried everything ! Whatever path we choose aren't we all after the same goal ? A joyous happy life ? Judgement separate us from each other. Whatever you find that does the deal for you as an individual and gives you that wonderful life is awesome ! I had to try everything before i finally threw in the towel , for me personally it was " No Human Power "

Nuudawn

I consider myself spiritual but not religious..despite the fact I glean much spiritual nurturing from the story of Christ, the Bible and sermons I download from a church I deeply resonate with but which is too far away from me to attend.

Although its just semantics, I believe (and I only speak for myself) there is a pretty big difference between religion and spirituality.

Zencat

For me it was "no superhuman power could relieve my alcoholism." My utter desperation of knowing that if I were to get and stay sober, It was all up to me. That was my "white light experience" or more of a slap back unto reality type of like awakening. I had to change or as NA sharply points out "jails, institutions, or death" were becoming a reality.

"Non-theism is relaxing with the ambiguity and uncertainty of the present moment without reaching for anything to protect ourselves. ... Nontheism is finally realizing there is no babysitter you can count on."
-Pema Chödrön

No G*d, no chair, no doorknob, no one to watch over me...only "The 4P's"; Plan, Practice, Patience and Persistence, a simple program to a healthy life works. The good news is that anyone "can get sober , stay sober and live joyous and free , by any method ," I also think this is an awesome truth! .

"the therapeutic value of one addict helping another is without parallel" ~ Narcotics Anonymous

Soberpotamus

Nice post, Zencat I'm currently reading Waiting by Marya Hornbacher and her idea of "waiting" is very similar to what you've just described... and I agree, it's freeing, ambiguous, empowering.

I like your 4 P's, btw. Practice, patience and persistence. SMART uses that. I like the 4th you've included... planning.

Threshold

I don't believe in any of the things on you list either. If one defines spiritual as having to do with supernatural things, then I suppose a person who doesn't believe in those things closes themselves off to that.

If one defines spiritual as having to do with that subset of brain function, then it is understood to be natural and frees one to take advantage of it.

But it is likely that some people do not have that brain function or that it is underdeveloped, just like any other manner of brain function. For them, a recovery program that employs other brain functions would be necessary.

There is no reason that anyone who is uninterested or unbelieving in spirituality to force themselves into AA or try to force AA into accomodating them. Energy is better spent on purposeful recovery.

I'm a science and artist whiz, but suck at accounting. Just don't have the brain function for it.

Zencat

Ops edit "no supernatural power could relieve my alcoholism"
Although, maybe Superman could have helped me! I have never ruled out anything that could be an aid to my sobriety. But after a time, with with plenty of trial, I been able to rule out what works and what dose not in regards to my sobriety. As SR member Wind would write: "It Twerks If You Twerk It"

Zencat

My experience has been one of liberation rather than "closed" I'm free to explore religion, mythology, spirituality and the supernatural without becoming attached. Today my naturalist spiritual practice is expansive. Maybe that excites brain regions that have great rewards. Ah brain science and the mystical Religious Experiences Shrink Part of the Brain: Scientific American, an interesting field of study.

eco

I actually had someone on here who pointed out some less religious AA meetings to me in my area. They were actually normal to me and didn't bother me at all.

I am a bit more hopeful that I can find some way in AA, because it is always available. I'll see how it goes.

Threshold

My experience has been liberating as well in that understanding that all these experiences are a natural part of life/existence, human experience and the result of the same process that brought about the physical universe, I don't have to lock them away in a box labeled "nonsense".

It does seem that many people deny themselves the value of these things because they see the way someone else has applied them in their lives and didn't like it. Like refusing to use a hammer because we know that somewhere, someone is using one to bludgeon someone.

But there are many tools with which to build recovery and freedom.

Threshold

Zen, I think there are a lot of brain regions that bring exciting rewards!

My pursuit of science and art are the things that always bring me back to "sanity" when I get lost.

cascademn

I think one of the reasons why AA has thrived is that it is culturally familiar. I was amazed at how much meetings reminded me of a worship service. Now that is a pattern that has been bringing people together for thousands of years. Even the somewhat non-traditional meetings that I attended still had this cadence. I was looking for a community that was more intimate and free flowing, maybe less scripted, so AA wasn't a good fit for me. However, there are people I met there that to this day I could call anytime if I needed help. True, there will always be dissonance between us because I'm not part of the AA community, but I know that my contacts in AA would not let that stop them from helping a fellow addict. So even though I didn't stick around I'm better off for having been there. Grateful for that. My $.02

caboblanco

I was writing in the hypothetical. The OP was asking about an atheist who went to AA. I thought by the definition I found on Atheism that AA would not be suitable for their beliefs. just my opinion. This doesn't reflect my own beliefs or non beliefs. I used to meditate and I believe in different levels of consciousness. I too believe there are different functions of the brain that are more abstract and that are different then just logic and reason

Soberpotamus

Have you found this group yet? I'm looking for it too I think if I could find a meditation group or fellowship, it might be just the ticket for me.

Also, I appreciate what you said about your AA experience. I feel very similar. I am grateful for them and feel like I could go back at any time and find at least a few people there I could count on. I hope to find a better AA group sometime in the future. Perhaps, a woman's group. I'm going to keep looking.

eco

A couple of the meetings I found ended up just being similar smart recovery. They read the preamble but omitted the How it Works which really bothered me. And, in each of the meetings they either didn't say the prayers at all, or limited it to not holding hands and saying the serenity prayer.

My problem with AA is more that I found it disturbing. I felt there was too much of a blind devotion to it and some belief that AA controlled your entire life. And I tried with a couple sponsors, and I felt their expectations were insane, and I could tell they felt if they just pushed me hard and tried to scare me with what "would happen to me" enough I would just give in and do what they wanted.

But, in the end, at least for now, I think the people in these meetings are pretty similar to me.

But, I have heard about more moderate sponsors. I can see now that AA really does vary a lot from meeting to meeting. So, hopefully with a bit more moderation in meetings and those I meet, I get a bit better at taking what I want and leaving the rest.

mfanch

Me: atheist.
I worked the steps in a secular way. HP= "not me". That's it. Sober for four years and happy. I just need persistence, willingness, and to help others like me. I have a new-comer atheist with whom I am starting the steps. It is awesome to see these women achieve sobriety.

NYCDoglvr

I'm an agnostic and have been working hard on the Steps since I got sober 22 years ago. I have a Higher Power (God = group of drunks) and have no problem working the steps, which have changed my life. It's my Higher Power as I understand him/her.

I think it depends on where you live. In New York (specifically Manhattan), nobody preaches Christianity or anything else. Your higher power is a private affair. If I was around Bible thumpers I doubt I'd stayed sober. Some recovering alcoholics are dogmatic about the Christian God. I go to great lengths to avoid people like that ... my sobriety is no one's business. If I want someone's opinion I'll ask for it.

NYCDoglvr

Start your own group! In New York there's a meeting called "We Agnostics" and others for people taking meditation. Round up the people who think like you and become your own loving center. Bill Wilson said the only thing you need to have a meeting is two drunks and a coffee pot. You can announce the start of your meeting "it needs support" is a nice thing to say.