Joe Nerv

Love it! And I'll +1 that, from someone who's not an athiest.

You don't need to do anything but have a desire to stop drinking to be a member of AA. No matter what anyone tries to have you believe.

You don't need to belong to AA to live a full sober life.

I would highly recommend if you desire to be a part of AA, to... well, yeah... keep your mouth shut if you're ranting about the stuff at meeting that you are here. Which it sounds like you are, since you're saying people are calling you a pompous jerk who thinks he knows everything. People in AA are human beings, no different than anyone else, and if they're telling you to stay away I have to guess it's because you're saying things in a manner that's having them do so. Not the best way to make friends and build a social circle.

I know lots and lots and lots of people who have stayed sober many years and made lots of friends in AA - who didn't work the steps, and didn't believe in god. They took what they wanted, and left the rest. If you can't do that without cutting into what others believe, then maybe you really don't belong and should find somewhere you'll be more comfortable.

trikyriky

That's not me talking Nuudawn , just as told me by another member. I just might not want to do the steps or may want to do them without a sponsor , i believe you can do them with or without., where you can do the step where you tell all in front of a priest

Nuudawn

Sorry..Riky... I hear ya. My counsellor suggested I do them with a journal. I'm pondering it. Yikes..I'll step out now..didn't mean to hijack OP's thread.

oak

I did not like aspects of AA meetings (very similar aspects as you describe). For me, SMART was not quite right but it was close. I just started going to NA meetings and they are a better fit for me. Much less religious. They seem very open and flexible. (and they are open to anyone with a substance problem, not just narcotics)

SMART also has online meetings, but I know that is not the same as f2f.

I also found meditation AA meetings to sort of work for me.

I hope you find what works for you.

Soberpotamus

A new recovery friend of mine told me the same about NA. He has encouraged me many times to try it out. I think I might do that next week.

I also use SMART and felt the same as you, that they aren't quite what I wanted overall, but there are some good tools, and once learned, those tools really do stick... I found SMART back in 2003 when my grandmother died and I was very distraught... I used some of the tools to deal with her death, and my own drinking. They have stayed with me ever since. I do SMART online meetings many times a week.

Nighthawk8820

You know, I am not an atheist, I have my own relationship with god, but dont follow any specific religion. I found AA to be somewhat outdated for me, and I didn't like how people seemed to think my "way" of getting sober wasn't as good as their own. I never liked being preached to, ever in my whole life. I enjoy hearing other peoples ideas and opinions, but I dont like being told what I need to think or feel.

I followed people and peer groups my whole life, and that lead to me losing myself, which I think contributred to my addiction (and many other things). For me, sobriety has been a never ending strive for a better me. I love educating myself on the many addictions, and treatment options. I love challenging myself and pushing myself to things I used to think were impossible.

For me, AA wasn't something I found helpful or something that contributed in a positive way to my own sobriety. It obviously works for a lot of people, and that is awesome, but for me, I chose a different route. I chose a more introspective, self healing sort of method. I looked at myself, and then I dug in and faced all my demons one by one. I sorted through all my crap, and I am still working on it. 2 years sober, and growing daily. I asked myself WHY? why do I do what I do, why do I think what I do. Can I change my perspectives? I find that when you challenge yourself, even small challenges at first, and then overcome them..........you build confidence. If you keep at it, the accomplishments snowball into one another and you grow and grow, and it catapults you out of the addictions grasp. As you change for the better, your world changes for the better. I think getting to know myself, and being okay with me and all I am has been the freedom I was looking for, and that was only possible if I wasnt polluted with booze. Im an alcoholic, I cannot have 1 drink EVER, or I will be right back where I started. These facts are my reality and something I can live with. Being sober, ive learned there is more to me than I even knew, and that is exciting as hell. I feel like my possibilities are endless now, and to have gained that from not drinking, is what keep addictive thinking at bay. There is no way I want to give up all I have learned and gained, which I would lose if I picked up a drink. I think the more you gain in sobriety, the less chance you have for a relapse........so GAIN as much as you can. I think for many people, they get sober, but dont really challenge themselves after that. The put limits on themselves and what they are capable of. Why put a cut off point on what you are able to achieve? So they dont see being sober and staying that way, as much of a gain or positive thing.They instead focus more on what they lost by not being able to drink. That is the most depressing thought process ever, its no wonder so many people relapse. You have to change EVERYTHING!!! Start by looking inside yourself, because everything you need is already in there. All the self doubt, guilt, lack of confidence is just getting in your way. Start with baby steps, one challenge at a time. For me, it was a simple as going to the grocery store by myself, something I couldn't do when I was hungover and wrecked with anxiety. Then you build from there, but try and do something like that at least every other day. Keep at it, and eventually you will seek out ways to challenge yourself, because of the great feeling you get when you are able to rise to the occasion. Thats the best advice I can give you. AA may work for some, but Im sick of them telling people its "the only way".

Zencat

to SR eco
SR is a great resource for support and offering support.

As secular person I do understand that AA is a spiritual program that can be misinterpreted as religious by many. That aside, Yes I am happy with my ongoing AA experience. I have even been able to work the 12 steps with RIP AA member Jimmy B as, dare I say, spirit guide.

Jimmy B, forth original AA member who argued to include "as you understand Him" into the 12-steps was an atheist that went to his grave with 3 decades of sobriety in AA. He wrote:I would recommend that you try seek out some more "liberal" AA members. Go early, stay late, at AA meetings and strike up causal conversation with any other AA members around. Get to know people so you can sort out the more like minded people for your support.

Lots of information for those, like myself as that use AAAA as a guideline for our recovery as AA members.
Agnostic/Atheist in AA (AAAA)
AA Agnostica
AA Agnostics of the San Franscisco Bay Area[indent]

Maybe print the below out and offer it to other AA members as a gift. Its a great message of being welcoming to all that earn their chair in AA.
Hope if I could help.

Joe Nerv

A lot of good info in this thread.

Felt like adding one more thing to my original post.

I never felt that I drank because I was a bad person, or because of any character defects I had. I don't really know why I drank, nor do I care. I'm only concerned with remaining sober and staying happy, and I'm certain I can't do the latter without the former.

When I first got sober I didn't feel I was a bad person at all. I wasn't. My drinking affected me more than anyone else, and I wasn't what you'd call a reckless, or violent drunk. When I came into AA, I wasn't offended by the steps though, and thought I would use only the ones that applied to me. Which I did.

After clearing up a bit I started to realize there was a lot of stuff in me that absolutely could be improved upon, and I realized I wasn't quite the angel I liked to think I was. We all have defects in our character. It's part of being human. We don't have to do anything about it if we choose not to, or we can choose to grow, and become better people. By choosing to work towards being a better person my life gets richer and fuller as the years move on.

If you just take the alcohol away from an alcoholic, you get an unhappy alcoholic. We need to grow and change if we want peace and happiness. AA offers tools that work for those who choose to use them. And as already mentioned lots of times here, they're not the only tools. They do however work excelently for those who are open to them, and use them.

MrTumble

Many non-believers here on the forum, in various states of recovery and from my time reading here there are a multitude of approaches being used to quit and stay quit. I don't think you need to be over-concerned if you dont "get" AA, I very much doubt that will determine if you quit the booze of not, there's lots of evidence around that shows people quit without assistance of AA all the time.

I believe in scientific enquiry and reason, for me, the concept of a "higher power" falls into the same category the Jedi "Force" Nice idea, but fiction all the same.

So basically, dont worry, you can quit without compromising your own core values.

Bubovski

I don't have any problems with turning to a higher power within my own understanding.
To me this essentially involves a genuine approach to act in a better way and not to drink.
Where I live there are secular AA meetings that see the Higher Power in terms of the group strength.
So long as no one tries to enforce their personal dogmas on to me I am happy to follow what I find relevant and simply let the rest pass.
As for a cosmic evolving moral ethic I don't have any difficulties with that either.
Its when some folk try to dogmatize their specific religious preferences (out of some 700 established religions) that I turn to AAs keep it simple option

awuh1

The notion that “scientific enquiry and reason” contradict the notion of a higher is amusing. At times the very people who claim open minded are anything but. One of the great things about AA is that it does not tell anyone they must believe anything, nor does it denigrate anyone’s beliefs. Individuals may do so of their own accord, but bottom line this is disrespectful, whether done by someone in AA or someone in SR.

Zencat

*"We found the Great Reality deep down within us"
That for me is Good or "better way"
#"And I found that by meditating and trying to tune in on my better self for guidance and answers, I became more comfortable and steady.”
Yep that works for me

Today I'm able to find wisdom that comes from what I perceive as metaphor and mythology. So their seems to be less and less to leave behind. Being along others that are on there own "Heroes Journey" bolsters my own commitment to become Good and pay the goodness forward. .
To each there own and to your oneself be true is a golden rule. I honer that.

Anyhoo what I believe or don't is my own personal business. It has no bearing on whether I can follow the 12-Step program of AA. I think anyone can follow the principles of the BB and 12-steps. "As you understand Him" is reaffirming to the naturalist spirituality I find "sacred". Of tolerance for the differing worldviews of people, I now take a Spockian approach to the whole-shebang:
"McCoy: Does your logic find this fascinating, Mr. Spock?
Spock: No. "Fascinating" is a word I use for the unexpected. In this case, I should think "interesting" would suffice. ."
Yes, very interesting.

* Alcoholics Anonymous Big Book first edition.
# AA Member Jim Burwell

wellwisher

By the time I found AA at age 34, I was so broken. I had been around booze my whole life; from childhood, where alcoholic parents and relatives who were generally good at heart became nasty drunks who used words that cut like knives, and who would then follow up with days of conscience-cleansing good deeds to make up for the words, followed by the knives again. I hated alcohol and vowed to never touch a drop. Imagine my surprise when I became what I hated most; a miserable alcoholic with a tongue sharp as a knife, and who used it whenever I felt like it. It left me alone and alienated.

I abhorred religious dogma. For me, there was no deus ex machina. Yet here I was, standing at the doorstep of AA in what I thought would be my religious conversion, with a bunch of bible thumpers. I was desperate.

Did I hate the term "powerless over alcohol", and the thought of having a disease - you bet. I spent my life fighting everyone and everything, to prove every bad word said about me to be wrong. I fought hard, and had my last drink a million times, but I somehow always ended up back where I started, but down a few pegs.

The simple truth is I was powerless over alcohol if I decided to pick up a drink, because the outcome would always be the same; no matter what. I did feel diseased, with thoughts so dark they permeated into my "non-drinking" hours and which consumed me, but it really didn't matter if I had a disease or not. I didn't think of myself as a bad person, but it was harder to separate the "good" me from the bad things I did when drunk; which was pretty much all of the time. All the positive self-talk disappeared long before I arrived at AA's doorstep. I was consumed with guilt, with shame, and had a track record that supported my self-analysis of being a loser. I had a record playing in my head - I'm a loser, I suck, no one cares, no one will hire me, etc. So there I stood; humbly ready for my religious conversion.

It didn't happen. Someone made the suggestion I use "Good Orderly Direction" as my higher power. It was liberating to me. Thinking back on going through the steps, they make perfect sense. I basically said, "the booze has got me, I believe the people in these rooms can help me, I'll listen to what they have to say and apply it, I'll look at what I've done in this life so far and see how my behaviors played a part in my troubles, I'll resolve to stop DOING that, I'll apologize and make amends to those I've harmed (so long as I cause no further harm). I will look at my actions every day, will live consciously, and keep my side of the street clean. And after having done all that, I will tell others how I beat the booze. And I WILL NOT DRINK. I did this by relying on the practical suggestions (not ALL of their suggestions) of people who have been through it, and they were so helpful in getting me to shake that sense of "I'm a loser" I held so deeply. I found like-minded people. It has worked for me these past 19 years. The guilt, the shame, and the drinking has all disappeared into the ethers. They are history! I no longer believe I operate in a vacuum, am involved in life, and don't feel like it is me against the world. It is liberating.

I don't define the word "spiritual" as having religious significance; I define "spiritual" to mean that I am one of many people, and at last, I fit in. For this recovered alcoholic, to be "one of many" gives my life purpose and a satisfaction that I never had when I lived in the "its me against the world" mentality. Isolated and alone was where I was, and that is no place to be.

I speak of my AA experience. As far as getting out of the addiction, I personally believe it is really important to understand you are NOT your disease, or your Beast with addictive voice, or the Salesman in your head - whatever you decide to call it. You need to find the separation between your true self and your addicted self, and if you find that hard to do BY yourself, then you need to find help with that. Just my opinion, for what it is worth.

Addiction CAN be beat - you can do it.

ersatzmatriarch

hey eco...

i'm an atheist who, though extremely hesitant at first, has found a great deal of experience, strength, hope, guidance, tools of sobriety and fellowship at AA.

i've always been a very spiritual person... but an atheist. many people in my life can't see how i put those two things together, but it works for me.

i've always been able to precisely define what i did not believe, but have never tried to define what i just feel in my heart and soul without question (my 'faith', if you will.) to get to a place where AA works for me, i spent some time trying to more clearly define my beliefs... which basically amount to the idea that i know for sure i'm just a tiny cog in the machine of the universe... so i took that faith i have in the spirit and energy of the universe, gave it a name, and will use that to work the steps.

the steps are something i want to embrace, because it just resonates with me.

when i read aloud in the rooms from the BB or the 12&12, i read as written to maintain the flow of the meeting. when i share, i use the term 'higher power' or 'something greater than me' (because the universe and it's energy literally is much bigger than me.) and i remind myself that each person has their own beliefs and are free to call it whatever they want, and that doesn't have to negate my own beliefs in any way. i've also taken to putting a little mark on the word 'god' in my own books as a gentle reminder of my own understanding of a higher power.

it's working out well for me. that said, though, if you aren't comfortable in the rooms, find another way. AA is not the be-all, end-all for recovery. if you find AA damaging to your peace and sobriety, definitely find another way that doesn't cause discomfort. as alcoholics, we've been so good at damaging ourselves and being miserable... i believe recovery should be a time for healing and gentleness. i hope you can find that some place in your recovery journey...

tomsteve

im sure that if people came into your house and criticized everything you do, ya wouldn't be too happy.

"And, I with all the prayer, religiosity, and discouragement I end up feeling that I was mentally and physically raped or something."
this parts on you. nobody made you feel that way but you.


heres another problem:
"I keep trying to attend AA meetings and manage it into something I can tolerate."
reads like yer tryin to change AA to fit what you want, and heres proof of it out of your mouth:
" I wish I could just find a sponsor who would make AA just like SMART."

I highly suggest getting out in your community and volunteering.


its also possible to do what the founders of SMART,AA and every other recovery method did: got into action and started a new recovery program. theres room for more.

2granddaughters

AA is a program of change and growth.

I came in with self-defeating prejudices and opinions. If I want everything AA has to offer I have to embrace it.

The less I accept and grow toward the less I get from the program. My choice.

All the best.

Bob R

sugarbear1

Why not start up a SMART meeting yourself? It can grow in your area from there.....

MrTumble

A belief is scientific reason doesn't necessitate being open minded, actually it can be quite the opposite in certain circumstances. The concept of a higher power is a belief held by some who frequent AA, it's not a scientific fact. In reality there is as much evidence for the existence of a higher power as there for the existence of the "hammer god", Thor.

Anyway. I think we can both agree that what's important is that the OP finds a way to address his/her's drinking problem, and that there are many ways to do that - none being specifically right or wrong.

Michael66

Hi Eco

AA is obviously what it is - it is founded on an understanding of powerlessness and the need of God/Higher Power. The twelve steps are the bedrock of AA.

I think you're in for a long period of frustration and resentment if you want AA to be something different from what it is. I think you simply have to accept AA as it is, not look for it or anyone in AA to change to be something more like you want, and then decide whether you can accept the support it offers on its clear foundational premises.

I hope you find a sober path that you're comfortable with, whether that be accepting AA for what it is, or finding another approach.

Soberpotamus

Thanks for this post, Wellwisher!! I can relate