Should Sobriety Be Conditional
Member
Join Date: May 2012
Location: canada
Posts: 7,226
more revising.
should sobriety be conditional? can't answer a "should", but now see that it is. for me.
the obvious: it is conditional on me knowing i'm an alcoholic.
okay. yes, that is okay. better than, even.
secondly, an expansion on what i said before: first time ever, after a gazillion tries, i added other people and involvement in places such as this. does my sobriety depend on it? i cannot know for sure, until/unless i stop doing what i'm doing and either stay sober til i die or relapse. i simply cannot know for sure.
but at about my fourth anniversary of quitting, it suddenly hit me that possibly i COULD have reached that day , but that i likely WOULDN'T have. not because it would have been impossible, but because i just probably wouldn't have. can't entirely explain that, but suddenly knew that my involvement with others were instrumental in getting me there.
hm. while i thought about this yesterday, i most certainly noticed the resistance i had to putting this here. part of me wanted to just be with the major strong voices here saying "oh no, not conditional, doesn't depend on a thing..."
ego. i saw that. sigh.
guess i can wrap it up by putting it this way: my sobriety is not conditional on what happens to me, but very much so on knowing who i am and on what i do.
thanks, BTSO, for starting the thread.
should sobriety be conditional? can't answer a "should", but now see that it is. for me.
the obvious: it is conditional on me knowing i'm an alcoholic.
okay. yes, that is okay. better than, even.
secondly, an expansion on what i said before: first time ever, after a gazillion tries, i added other people and involvement in places such as this. does my sobriety depend on it? i cannot know for sure, until/unless i stop doing what i'm doing and either stay sober til i die or relapse. i simply cannot know for sure.
but at about my fourth anniversary of quitting, it suddenly hit me that possibly i COULD have reached that day , but that i likely WOULDN'T have. not because it would have been impossible, but because i just probably wouldn't have. can't entirely explain that, but suddenly knew that my involvement with others were instrumental in getting me there.
hm. while i thought about this yesterday, i most certainly noticed the resistance i had to putting this here. part of me wanted to just be with the major strong voices here saying "oh no, not conditional, doesn't depend on a thing..."
ego. i saw that. sigh.
guess i can wrap it up by putting it this way: my sobriety is not conditional on what happens to me, but very much so on knowing who i am and on what i do.
thanks, BTSO, for starting the thread.
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: "I'm not lost for I know where I am. But however, where I am may be lost ..."
Posts: 5,273
Originally Posted by fini
part of me wanted to just be with the major strong voices here saying "oh no, not conditional, doesn't depend on a thing..."
ego. i saw that. sigh.
ego. i saw that. sigh.
I don't view having contingencies as weaker, but rather for me, it's just not as effective in staying abstinent, that's all (again I'm speaking for me). It leaves too many cracks in the door for my addiction.
Personally, the strongest of people are those who know themselves, deeply and well. They know what they need and set about getting it. If needs change, they reassess, regroup, and start a new path toward their goals. I'm not sure staying sober has as much to do with strength as it does self-knowledge.
True strength can finally be saying the words "I need help".
Member
Join Date: May 2012
Location: canada
Posts: 7,226
I don't think that those who say their abstinence isn't conditional are stronger.
oh no, neither do i. but the simple "no! not contingent on a thing" sounds stronger. that's what i was saying" stronger-sounding.
yes, everything to do with self-knowledge.
was thinking of it, too, in relation to how many people come back from relapse with posts along these lines: "i forgot i was a drunk/i started to doubt that i..../ i thought maybe i had gotten over.../i didn't think i would still be.../ i thought i could now control.../"et cetera.
self-knowledge.
the absolute certainty about it.
oh no, neither do i. but the simple "no! not contingent on a thing" sounds stronger. that's what i was saying" stronger-sounding.
yes, everything to do with self-knowledge.
was thinking of it, too, in relation to how many people come back from relapse with posts along these lines: "i forgot i was a drunk/i started to doubt that i..../ i thought maybe i had gotten over.../i didn't think i would still be.../ i thought i could now control.../"et cetera.
self-knowledge.
the absolute certainty about it.
Member
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 15
Originally Posted by BackToSquareOne 
The reason I brought this up is because I was thinking about mindfulness, meditation and how you can reach some really cool "States" with those things but they never last. They come, they go, some days you really feel the oneness, the presence and all of that and other days not so much.
It's kind of like being in the now is more of a knowing than it is a doing. How could you do something that you already are, you're always in the now so chasing that state is kind of silly. I'm getting way off topic but I do think if we tie being sober to being in a certain state then we're going to be forever chasing that state which will only lead to a lot of needless frustration.
It's kind of like being in the now is more of a knowing than it is a doing. How could you do something that you already are, you're always in the now so chasing that state is kind of silly. I'm getting way off topic but I do think if we tie being sober to being in a certain state then we're going to be forever chasing that state which will only lead to a lot of needless frustration.
whilst I've been asleep and I didn't do anything. I don't need to ask for a sober day because I already am "sober".
Member
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 15
Originally Posted by DIYman
I'm very early in my recovery but I think (and have read) is that when one stops drinking one finds out what one started drinking for in the first place.
If that manifests itself as a void that now needs filling and what it happens to need filling (for that particular individual) with is a sense that there is something bigger out there than the individual that we are, then I would say that that awareness or development of that spirituality is conditional on sobriety.
But of course that void itself is uniquely different for everyone, and most certainly not always a spiritual void. In many cases there may not even be a void to actually fill.
If that manifests itself as a void that now needs filling and what it happens to need filling (for that particular individual) with is a sense that there is something bigger out there than the individual that we are, then I would say that that awareness or development of that spirituality is conditional on sobriety.
But of course that void itself is uniquely different for everyone, and most certainly not always a spiritual void. In many cases there may not even be a void to actually fill.
Administrator
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 209,185
I was running from myself.
But I found out I was running from who I thiught I was...or who my addiction had convinced me I was.
The real me was nowhere near as bad as I thought he was...
but it took several weeks for me to get a clear perspective on that - alcohol had its claws in deep.
D
But I found out I was running from who I thiught I was...or who my addiction had convinced me I was.
The real me was nowhere near as bad as I thought he was...
but it took several weeks for me to get a clear perspective on that - alcohol had its claws in deep.
D
Member
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Bklyn. NY
Posts: 1,859
I believe all of our sobriety is somewhat conditional, whether we think it, say it, believe it, or not. For one person it's conditional on their spiritual condition, for another it's their not wavering from a stringient state of mind, for another it's keeping contact with AA, another keeping contact here, moving forward... etc, etc....
Some people say there's not a chance they'll ever drink again. Their sobriety is dependent on keeping that attitude. Some people say they might drink again if they don't keep on top of themselves. Same thing. I don't know how much fear goes into either of those. Desire seems more accurate a word, desire to live an abundant, peaceful and possibly happy life.
I have no fear of picking up a drink. 0. There's not a single place I won't go, or thing I won't do or not do because I feel "I might drink". I do certain things to keep growing, changing, and keep myself happy. Decades of experience has taught me that if I don't, I can get kinda miserable. And I can stagnate. I'm not happy when I'm standing in the same spot for too long. Not sure if that's a plus or a minus
, but it's who I am and I accept it.
As for the abstinance and sobriety thing, I'm certain there's a distinction. I know some people who just put down a drink out of sheer determination and lived the rest of their lives in an incredibly miserable state of mind and spirit. I could give reall specific details on that too, but I gotta run...
I know lots of people who's lives have flourished after putting down the drink and making changes.
Arggh...the time says I can't even edit this. See yas.
Some people say there's not a chance they'll ever drink again. Their sobriety is dependent on keeping that attitude. Some people say they might drink again if they don't keep on top of themselves. Same thing. I don't know how much fear goes into either of those. Desire seems more accurate a word, desire to live an abundant, peaceful and possibly happy life.
I have no fear of picking up a drink. 0. There's not a single place I won't go, or thing I won't do or not do because I feel "I might drink". I do certain things to keep growing, changing, and keep myself happy. Decades of experience has taught me that if I don't, I can get kinda miserable. And I can stagnate. I'm not happy when I'm standing in the same spot for too long. Not sure if that's a plus or a minus
, but it's who I am and I accept it.As for the abstinance and sobriety thing, I'm certain there's a distinction. I know some people who just put down a drink out of sheer determination and lived the rest of their lives in an incredibly miserable state of mind and spirit. I could give reall specific details on that too, but I gotta run...
I know lots of people who's lives have flourished after putting down the drink and making changes.
Arggh...the time says I can't even edit this. See yas.
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Bethlehem, PA.
Posts: 1,781
Originally Posted by Dee74
I was running from myself.
But I found out I was running from who I thiught I was...or who my addiction had convinced me I was.
The real me was nowhere near as bad as I thought he was...
but it took several weeks for me to get a clear perspective on that - alcohol had its claws in deep.
D
But I found out I was running from who I thiught I was...or who my addiction had convinced me I was.
The real me was nowhere near as bad as I thought he was...
but it took several weeks for me to get a clear perspective on that - alcohol had its claws in deep.
D
This is where it gets really complicated. Dee said "I was running from myself". Does this mean there are 2 Dees. If I were to ask Dee to produce the "self" that the I was running from could he do that? Is the "self" little more than a collection of memories generated by the mind and ego? Does it even exist anywhere outside of Dees headspace?
Could it be that this is why Dee can answer so many posts? When his I needs a break he just lets his "self" fill in for a while? Sooooo many questions, so few answers!!!
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: "I'm not lost for I know where I am. But however, where I am may be lost ..."
Posts: 5,273
Originally Posted by Joe Nerv
I know some people who just put down a drink out of sheer determination and lived the rest of their lives in an incredibly miserable state of mind and spirit.
Originally Posted by Joe Nerv
I have no fear of picking up a drink. 0. There's not a single place I won't go, or thing I won't do or not do because I feel "I might drink". I do certain things to keep growing, changing, and keep myself happy. Decades of experience has taught me that if I don't, I can get kinda miserable. And I can stagnate. I'm not happy when I'm standing in the same spot for too long.
Administrator
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 209,185
When I say I was running from myself I mean the conception I had of myself...
that's not to say I didn't often feel like there was two mes duking it out for supremacy inside me, but I never felt really schizophrenic....it's just a linguistic construct to convey meaning really
as for SR...
Dee bot X7 signing off
D
that's not to say I didn't often feel like there was two mes duking it out for supremacy inside me, but I never felt really schizophrenic....it's just a linguistic construct to convey meaning really
as for SR...
Dee bot X7 signing off
D
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Bethlehem, PA.
Posts: 1,781
Originally Posted by Dee74
When I say I was running from myself I mean the conception I had of myself...
that's not to say I didn't often feel like there was two mes duking it out for supremacy inside me, but I never felt really schizophrenic....it's just a linguistic construct to convey meaning really
as for SR...
Dee bot X7 signing off
D
that's not to say I didn't often feel like there was two mes duking it out for supremacy inside me, but I never felt really schizophrenic....it's just a linguistic construct to convey meaning really
as for SR...
Dee bot X7 signing off
D
That was an attempt at Buddhist humor and the concept of "No Self". They feel that what most of what we consider to be self is just a construct of the mind. Here is how the Buddhist crowd looks at it if anyones interested. : Not-self | The Existential Buddhist
Member
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Melbourne, Victoria Australia
Posts: 1,202
I so love this thread - having read it before getting sober again (via inpatient detox this past week) and now.
I believe it's an important discussion; whilst it can get a bit confusing (a bit like trying to read Wittgenstein or something :-)), the very topic itself DOES become quite confusing for recovering/ed addicts in the real world of their lives a great deal. Especially those in relatively new sobriety / abstinence, I think.
Hence I'm posting in order to bump it for those who haven't yet noticed it.
Metta btw to all :-)
Vic
I believe it's an important discussion; whilst it can get a bit confusing (a bit like trying to read Wittgenstein or something :-)), the very topic itself DOES become quite confusing for recovering/ed addicts in the real world of their lives a great deal. Especially those in relatively new sobriety / abstinence, I think.
Hence I'm posting in order to bump it for those who haven't yet noticed it.
Metta btw to all :-)
Vic
Currently Active Users Viewing this Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
