Johno1967

Funny that, I was addicted to drama as well and drinking was its partner. If things were going normal I had to complicate and over dramatize otherwise life seemed to be dull and boring. I was this bloke:

The Men Who Don't Fit In*

Robert W. Service

There's a race of men that don't fit in,
A race that can't stay still;
So they break the hearts of kith and kin,
And they roam the world at will.
They range the field and they rove the flood,
And they climb the mountain's crest;
Theirs is the curse of the gypsy blood,
And they don't know how to rest.

If they just went straight they might go far;
They are strong and brave and true;
But they're always tired of the things that are,
And they want the strange and new.
They say: "Could I find my proper groove,
What a deep mark I would make!"
So they chop and change, and each fresh move
Is only a fresh mistake.

And each forgets, as he strips and runs
With a brilliant, fitful pace,
It's the steady, quiet, plodding ones
Who win in the lifelong race.
And each forgets that his youth has fled,
Forgets that his prime is past,
Till he stands one day, with a hope that's dead,
In the glare of the truth at last.

He has failed, he has failed; he has missed his chance;
He has just done things by half.
Life's been a jolly good joke on him,
And now is the time to laugh.
Ha, ha! He is one of the Legion Lost;
He was never meant to win;
He's a rolling stone, and it's bred in the bone;
He's a man who won't fit in.

SullyS

My sobriety/recovery should not have any conditions whatsoever. If my sobriety was contingent on my mood at the time I wouldn't be able to string together one week of sobriety because my moods are constantly changing.

For me, sobriety is about accepting whatever mood state I am in at the time and learning to deal with it if it is bad. Otherwise, if I am constantly striving to feel happy or good then I think I am back in the addict/alcoholic mind state which is that reality sucks at the moment so I need to do something to change it. This might be why others feel sobriety should be conditional, because they dont like having negative feelings but I know if I have that attitude, I will die from the disease. There is no doubt in my mind about that

RobbyRobot

My alcoholism, as defined by AA has two faces, sober or drunk, the coin being my alcoholism illness.

It's not that my sobriety will fail into drunkeness if I don't achieve or maintain a spiritual life going forward -- its more that without sobriety, I wont have any chance at living a spiritual life.

This is true for me, because I accept the inherent conditions of my alcoholism illness. Ton's of people stay quit and happily so without being alcoholics, as defined by AA. For me, that kind of unconditional life is not enough to float my boat and ring all my bell's and whistles -- I require more to be happily challenged and successful.

Being sober as a recovered alcoholic drug addict, with my alcoholism arrested, in remission, makes sense to me because of my familarity with my alcoholic mind. I'm satisfied with the results of my conditioned sobriety.

My alcoholic mind is the same for me as is the Beast metaphor of AVRT. Things can get complicated with a direct comparison of course, and I'm not about to detail comparisons of my 31 yrs of experience with my alcoholic mind/Beast simply because there is way too much controversy between AA sobriety and AVRT, and no one here needs the drama.

So, the idea that having conditions with sobriety equates with a failed sobriety is not true in my experience, and naturally I'm in disagreement with folks who believe that conditions themselves guarantee failure.

With AVRT, conditions on not drinking create AV. Yeah, well, so what. The mere presence of AV does not in itself force a drink into any ones hand and force them to drink it, lol.

There is nothing to fear from our AV. AV is a normal experience for me these past 31 years. Big deal.

pluginjug

I drank because of my states. When happy, I celebrated. When bored, I drank. When upset, I drank.

Feelings and states should have no bearing on sobriety. In fact, I stay sober despite my states. I am not my feelings and states. My sobriety transcends all of that stuff.

Embark on a practice of not identifying with your states. Observe them. It's a great meditative practice that you can do all the time. I'm not saying stuff emotions; I'm saying accept them but don't identify with them. States, thoughts and emotions need not and should not dictate your behavior.

fini

I do think if we tie being sober to being in a certain state then we're going to be forever chasing that state
that would be a substitution, then, really.
a continuation of the chasing of the elusive never-lasting ever-disappointing "good" state with drinking.
when you ask if it's conditional on anything, i said no with confidence immediately. as in no to it being tied to outside events, moods, feelings, 'states'.
but i hadn't though of Robby's 'spiritual state' condition.
(but those are circles i've been going around in my own mind for years and haven't figured out yet for myself.)
but what that speaks to is along the oft-discussed difference between abstinence and sobriety. .why do i have so many "but"s in this post??

bbthumper

My sobriety is contingent on my spiritual fitness. And I wouldnt have it any other way. The rewards that come along with a spiritual life go far beyond just staying sober. I know that the only reason I would ever drink again would be a failure to enlarge my spiritual life. But having experienced a small taste of what a spiritual life has to offer, why would I ever fail to enlarge it? There is infinte room for growth.

soberlicious

Yes, that is, if one draws a distinction between the two. I don't.

freshstart57

To me, there is a difference between abstinence and sobriety only if there is a condition attached to continued sobriety.

bemyself

I love threads like this - someone could compile them as an anthology by the SR intelligentsia, my favourite people :-) :-)

I fervently hope that I too can finally 'get' this simple principle and fully apply it, through thick n thin, ups n downs, once I get out of the 7-10 day rehab I've just booked myself into, starting next Tuesday. (See my thread Alcohol + me = MAD).

Carry on the conversation, you guys are absolute stars!

Boleo

I agree. When I lost the obsession to drink, about the same time I also experienced "Piece Of Mind/Joy/Sense Of Purpose" to a degree that I had never felt before. For the first time in my life I knew what church people were talking about when they used the word "Fulfillment".

Since then I have noticed that I can feel this POMJSOP even on days where everything is going wrong. If I am using self-appraisal, prayer and meditation on a regular daily basis.

On the other hand, I can feel restless, irritable and discontent even on days where everything is going right in my life. That is where I do a spot check to see see how long I have neglected self-appraisal, prayer and meditation. It usually starts to occur after about 3 days of resting on my laurels. I have never let it go longer than that to find out what the consequences would be (why risk it?).

I can only speculate on it, but if I let this agitated condition build up big enough, long enough, there just might come a day when I would say to myself, "F***-It! This not-drinking business is just not worth having. Give me my bottle back!"

soberlicious

Yes, but what I meant was, the recovery movement has attached some additional meaning to the word "sober" and added a negative connotation to the word "abstinent"...i.e. abstaining means not drinking but miserable with no personal growth in sight, whereas sobriety means happy, joyous, and free because of a spiritual awakening. I find this distinction inaccurate and unnecessary. Believing one person's experience with ending addiction is somehow superior or inferior to another's is divisive. It creates differences where there needn't be any.

RickHillJr

Wow! That's an intense question...thought. I don't know what conditional state may cause my sobriety to no longer be a condition of my life. I know I say it's not that sobriety is all I have to stand on that's mine. But after 16+years I still say that when I get old I will be sitting on the porch smoking a joint sipping some bourbon. But I don't mean that or do I ?

RickHillJr

by the way for getting me to think.

fini

when you ask if it's conditional on anything, i said no with confidence immediately. as in no to it being tied to outside events, moods, feelings, 'states'.
but i hadn't though of Robby's 'spiritual state' condition.

i have to take that back, or at least add to it, since i thought about it more and here's what it comes down to for me: i don't know IF it is conditional for me.
what you asked, OP, is if it should be...there is no place for "should",really.
i don't think it depends on circumstances for me, such as outside events or 'states', but it hit me later today that it might be contingent on the things i do with regards to being involved in "recovery activities".
this is what i don't know. what i DO know is that in all my previous tries, i didn't ever join or speak with other alcoholics. i tried by will, by myself. never worked.
this time, not only did i understand i was a drunk, but i did immediately start on an on-line forum and go to a weekly f2f meeting. i got involved with others in the same boat that way. it's been six years, and though i didn't intend to stay involved, these places grew on me, of course. of course .
but it means that i haven't gone it alone again, and so in all honesty i couldn't say whether my sobriety is contingent on this involvement/these actions or not.
i'd have to quit doing what i'm doing in order to find out.

it's fairly common for people to come after a relapse and say they'd quit doing what had helped them stay sober in the first place. sounds like contingency, no?

fini

abstaining means not drinking but miserable with no personal growth in sight, whereas sobriety means happy, joyous, and free because of a spiritual awakening. I find this distinction inaccurate and unnecessary.

Soberlicious.
this might be what some think it means/how it is, but others will have different connotations.
it might be useful to ask individuals we're speaking with what THEY mean when they use these words.
that this would get terrifically complex on threads like this is so, but it seems like the chances of communicating and really hearing where others are coming from would be increased dramatically.
i cannot assume i know what someone means/intends to convey when they say sober or abstinent.
for myself, i started out using them more or less interchangeably, but as i moved along in not-drinking-time, my view changed.
i say i'm sober, but know i'm not sober in the joyous happy free way that(...well, i haven't really asked anyone what he/she means when they say they are, so i wouldn't know.) others would call that abstinent, or dry, but i also know i am not that. funny...abstinence, i think, is what i was trying for in my gazillion attempts that were unsuccessful.
there is so much and there are so many real people anywhere in between what gets so often so dismissively simplistically put as either/or.

soberlicious

exactly...which is why I said I find the distinction inaccurate and unnecessary.

Prudent advice. I never fail to ask for clarification when I'm unsure.

TheEnd

My sobriety is not conditional on anything except for me picking up and drink or a drug. That's it for me, period. My life improved 120% when I stopped putting intoxicating substances in my body.

freshstart57

Soberlicious, I understand exactly what you are saying (I think). According to some, that additional meaning you are referring to, perceived by some, is conditional on that spiritual awakening. I don't require a condition for my sobriety, to refer back to OP, so therefore my statement is that I don't see any difference. I guess I am just happy, joyous and free anyway, and growing like a weed. Soberly abstinent. Unconditionally.

It's all good, yeah?

RobbyRobot

I agree with both meanings of abstinence and sobriety as defined by AVRT and AA respectively. They each have merit. I do not consider either superior to the other, perhaps because I value both sides. I do know for myself, I need both to fully identify with myself and my experiences, and so I'm satisfied with this understanding.

bemyself

Of course, it's taken as read that for such as moi - at the moment - either definition will work for me. To be frank, I don't care - at the moment, waiting to get it together (somehow) to get sober again via a detox period, away from home and my dog.

Still, I will always, always value these discussions. As I noted earlier, this stuff - the courteous, sane, interesting, and thank God, well-written! musings of interesting people, who also have sobriety or whatever you care to call it, securely in their days, their minds, their bodies and hearts....this stuff is even better than some of the best postgrad / staff seminars at uni I've been part of.

It gives me hope, real hope, that I too may find this kind of secure je n'sais quoi....

Meantime, back to my M.A.D. thread rambles, here in the Aussie summer evening gloaming....