The Jay Walker

Don

I see your point, throughout my life at different times people would see how bad off I was and take me to church, I really got into the born again deal at one point, but it never kept me sober, I still felt like a hipocrite and an outcast, then after much bible study I realized that I really didn't believe everything I was reading.

BUT when I got to recovery I did not feel like an outcast or social reject anymore, since then my conception of god has come and gone, and changed several times, but I have remained sober.

Me2

[QUOTE=Don S]Hi, Dan,

I'm just guessing, but I suspect some folks here believe that leaves you on the outside looking in. But that doesn't affect your ability to get or stay sober, or the quality of life you're going to have when you achieve sobriety. Best has described how much more complete his life is after accepting Jesus as his personal savior.

Moreover, if you change your mind about what you believe regarding Jesus (or Mohammed, Buddha, or any other prophet around whose teachings major religions have been founded) it shouldn't have any bearing on your drinking.

Many miserable substance abusers believe earnestly in Christianity, and it doesn't provide them with the motivation or the reinforcement to get and remain sober. Many people with little or no religious belief quit drinking successfully and live happy lives which they find complete.

At the risk of sounding like a broken record: if we keep our religious beliefs separate from our decision for abstinence, then our sobriety isn't threatened when we pursue theological debates. Then when we are faced with wrenching emotional upsets, or natural disasters, or inhumanity inflicted by people of our own faith, we can question that faith without shaking the basis of our sobriety.

Thanks for your comments, Best! I won't enter the debate about whether Chevy is better than Ford, since I drive a VW....


I really dont believe alcoholism is a disease,I do beleive its a condition brought about by choice. They will never find a gene which causes it. Just like they wont find one for people who comitt burglary. I beleive drunkeness is a sin,we are breaking Gods laws and natures,when we are drunk. If we are sinners by nature then all the logic and good intentions in the world will never deliver us from sin. Sinners need a savior. The rise of secular humanism is trying to elevate man into a godhood all his own, empowering him through logic, reason and selfwill to pull himself up by his own bootstraps. Its the new religion which is coming as we enter the last age. It takes more faith than believeing in God. One must be cautious when he is baseing his recovery on human logic because its of man. I dont feel secualr humanisn can adress the deeper aspects of mans nature which is the spiritual.....Why am I here ? Where am I going? Plus it has to by its main premiss adhere to the tenant that the alcoholic person by his very nature is not powerless when it comes to alcohol....something which AA and the Bible vehemently disagree with....steve

best

Bike groups, vet groups, AA groups... I have seen it so many times. Acceptance and a brothrhood no matter where you stand in life. Accepted as you are with a respect for the person. What I have seen in some churches...rejection for what you do and outcast because of it.
To find a relationship with God...go to God. By looking in a church you will find opinions of people. "after much bible study" is a good start. By looking to the way mankind treats each other (in a church or out) you may be bound to get side tracked.
Something the Pastor at my church says... Church is not a retreat for the saved, but a hospital for the sinners to get well in.
When a church rejects people for what they do, that is like a hospital saying go away till you are better then come see us.
Many churches need take lessons from others who know how things should be. On a happy note...some churches do get it right. Now how do you find such a church? Let God guide you there and or...be the one who brings the needed changes where they need be placed. It isn't...what can this church do for me...it is what can I bring to this church for the Lord.
A relationship with the Lord is a Personal relationship. A one on one with Him. Churches are a place for fellowship, teaching, learning, and growth. As you can learned from wrong actions when seen in a church group, (or any group)you will also learn from right actions when seen in a church group (or any group). The church should be a place of learning how to become closer to the Lord in our understanding and actions.

Me2

Awesome post....steve

Alice Wonder

i am part native american. my mother was half and my grandfather full.... both horrible addict/alcholics.
my two siblings(native blood) from my mother's first marriage are horrble addicts/alcoholics.
my other three siblings(no native blood) from my father's first marriage have no sign of any addictive behavior. they rarely drink if ever.
it has been proven there is a definite link between indigenous people and alcoholism.
there are several case studies and statistics available. i think the physiological aspect is part and parcel of some peoples struggle with addiction. i just had to set the record straight on this. go to any reservation and take a look around it will break your heart.
the man I love is also part native american and an alcoholic/addict. his father who was half died of liver failure at a young age.iwhile i do not think it is the main cause i do believe that there is a gene and i wish to heck they would find it and destroy it.

best

and with that the solution to stop drinking would be...secular reasoning, pulling one self up by logic and boot strapes OR seeking the help of the Savior and giving over self to His ways as God knows what is best for us. But as stated, secular reasoning though it may work to help one stop drinking, won't get one soul into heaven. If stopping drinking is the goal, there are many rivers that run to the sea. If getting to heaven is the goal...there is but 2 ways to get there and so far only one has made it the first way. Be without sin or find a savior are the only two ways into heaven.

best

And go to Japan and you will find they don't get fall down drunk like westerners do even if they drink twice as much. Something about the food? metabolism? Genes? The thing I read on it said genes.

Alice Wonder

Best- it seems to be the case with several cultures. some can drink with little effect and some are almost alergic to alcohol. sounds like genes to me. anytime I want to drink I just say the word FIREWATER and that does it.

Don S

It is not necessary to address those questions to get or remain sober.
Don S

Rudiger

Yes Don.

These are not necessary questions. But I do think they are very common questions (Why am I here? Where am I going?)that arise in many recovering alcoholics. Especially those new in recovery. Pehaps the numbing of our consciousness on a day to day basis left many of us with a bit of a void in our lives that cries out to br filled. Sometimes for me it is not so much the answer that fills the empty space but rather the quest for it and the company I keep while searching for it.

Rudiger

best

DD
Ease trials and tribulations? Nope. Give you the strength through His grace to get through them ...Yes
Jesus doesn't say it will be easy. Matter of fact he tells us it could be tough. They rejected Him and placed Him on a cross, why would they accept His followers any more then they did Him? His grace to get through is what He promised.

In the scriptures of the Old Testament, there are many areas that tell of Jesus' coming.
One that sticks out for me that tells who He is so directly is this found in Isaiah...
and He will be called Emanuel which means God with us.
In the Greek it was known and accepted that the word of God is a part of God.
That which is understood but not seen... Logos ... the Word of God
The English "I AM" as God spoke to Moses means It is enough for you to know that I am. To fully know Me is beyond your understanding. God is known as the Great I AM.
As Jesus spoke, He would give reference to Himself as I AM

In the beginning was the Word and the Word is God and the Word became flesh.

If you seek the answers in the old testament as well as accept what is written in the New Testament, you will find that Jesus is God who became flesh.
To not accept Jesus for who He is would be to say you don't believe and that would say a person would be looked at as a non christian.

Don S

Steve, I believe your world view is stunningly depressing. More to the point, I find it filled with contradictions.

If it's a condition brought about by choice, how is it that you believe we are powerless over alcohol? You can't really have it both ways.

Why would it be unlikely that there is a genetic component to alcohol abuse? The differences between cultures are provable. Studies with animals have shown that some will choose psychoactive substances over food. I think it's just that any biological determinant to behavior conflicts with your ideology. What would it mean to you if a direct genetic link was discovered? To me, it wouldn't negate the behavioral aspects of alcohol abuse. It would simply describe why it is more difficult for some people to quit drinking than it is for others.

If it is a sin to be drunk, and sinners need a savior, then people who don't believe in a savior could never stop drinking successfully. Yet many do.

Where in the bible does it say (vehemently?!) that we are powerless over alcohol? I'll defer to your greater knowledge of scripture, but I'm curious.

Secular humanists, and others with a naturalist world view, don't elevate man into a god (or 'godhood'). Quite the contrary: there is no god in their world. God is believed to be a concept that evolved with societies, and which became irrelevant as knowledge advanced to explain what had been mysterious. They simply say that we determine our own meaning and our own purpose. And for the umpteenth time: secular humanism is not a religion (and for that matter, evolution is not a religious belief by any definition of the term).

Logic, reason, and selfwill have allowed people and societies to accomplish great things. Indeed, America's freedom allows great expression of those, and I believe that is because we are a secular country. I guess I have greater faith in the ability of people to rise above self-destructive behavior than you do. If I can do it, you can, they can, anybody can. I also believe that it is harmful to people to tell them that their behavior comes from a sinful nature over which they have no control.

Don S

Dan

Thank you best. Growing up, I was told I was a child of God. Fairly strict Catholic environment, early 60's Quebec. I was told that the God I had been given was benevolent and all encompassing. It didn't stick. Still won't. And I suppose it is a manifestation of grandiosity on my part to not accept the fact that there is anything beyond my understanding. But such it is in my life. Historically, I am fascinated by the man Jesus. I find it perplexing to a degree that because of my beliefs, I remain on the outside. It's where I've been most of my life on this and the seat is comfortable by now. Thank you, ye all faithful here, for letting me look in.
Thank you as well Don. As usual, your thoughts add fuel to my search.
Be well all,

Dan

In memory of miracle

The program works! :tri

historyteach

Best:
"To not accept Jesus for who He is..."
I think you mean to say who the Christians say he is, right?
Every other thing I have seen you write accepts that others believe differently. Who "He is," with a capital "H" there, signifying G*D, is what Christians believe he is; which is fine - for Christians.
I too, do not think he is the word made flesh. And the Torah does not speak of Jesus. The writters of the New Testament did put those words into the mouth of Jesus. But, Jesus left no writtings. All of the NT was written 30-500 years AFTER his death. That is the historic fact.
If I am not mistaken, you have children. Ask them if they have ever played telephone tree. Then, ask them what happens to the message as it gets passed down the line.

However, I am certainly glad that this FANTASTIC discussion has not ended as a result of the Great Crash of 2004! I look forward to much more meaningful, respectiful dialogue.
If I may share just a bit from the AlAnon book, Courage to Change.
"If I do not know how to respond to a situation today, why not try responding with kindness?....agree or disagree with someone's point of view, I can still treat the other person with respect and courtesy."
Today's Reminder:
"Today I will try to view every conflict as an opportunity to heal. I will honor myself by responding with courtesy."
"The highest form of wisdom is kindness."
The Talmud
There are many opportunities for conflict when discussing religious leanings. However, we honor ourselves, therefore G*D, by acting appropriately. Fear of the other viewpoint need not turn to distain or disparaging comments. As Ghandi once said, "You will find, there is room for us all."
Shalom!

Dan

Been saving your chair teach. Welcome back. I really want to hear a discussion on Jesus and what he represents to other people. My remaining sober does not rely on it. My intellectual health requires it.

DD

Gooch

My first sponsor told me if I had a problem with the disease concept to put a hyphen in the middle dis-ease ... I had a dis-ease with my feelings and reactions. Simple program right?

As for cultural or racial statistics. I have a friend who worked in treatment. He said he was always curious about the lack of people certain ethnic backgrounds coming into treatment. His take was that it was a combination of environmental influences, coupled with belief systems.

I struggled with the disease concept for a long time because i attributed my powerlessness to moral weakness. As long as I believed my addiction was the result of flawed morality or "being sinful", I coud experience no relief. When I seperated my morality from my powerlessness, I could achieve abstinance which seemed to be necessary for me to begin to grow spiritually.

Gooch

My point exactly Teach, too many opportunities for mistranslation. Add to it the conspiratorial motives of those who would rule their fellows, by manipulation.

I haven't noticed mention of Gnostic texts. From my study, they share a much simpler set of instructions.

The parables that Jesus spoke, remind me of the sharing that goes on in meetings. Diverse experiences recounted to illustrate spiritual experiences. Words do not precisely convey emotions. If you found a quarter on the street and it provided the phone call that helped you keep from getting loaded while it may have been the evidence of a miracle for you, I may not feel that. I have a friend who didn't find out that her left turn signal didn't work until she was turning left into a bar, and the car behind her attempted to pass. That happy accident or divine providence helped her through a temptation. She shares that on her anniversary ( 12 so far).

I believe that God as I understand Him, knows what experiences will provide the direction necessary for us to gain knowledge of His will for us and the courage to carry it out. And in that knowledge the time frame for each of us is divinely charted. I keep coming back as only through honesty, openmindedness, and willingness will His plan for me be revealed. (It's a moment by moment intinerary)

Some of my most frustrating moments seem to be when I try to push myself or my fellow into an accelerated learning curve.

Magichappens

This is an interesting thread. I read recently that some believe AA to be a new age religion. This I might agree with that. An all encompassing religion where no one belief is wrong. Each person can use the simple principle in conjunction with their own beliefs. I also read recently that some believe AA to be a destructive cult. There are books full of horror stories about people's experiences with the meetings, people, and fellowship of AA. There are historical documenting of the scandals and escapades of the original members. There are accusations of religious brainwashing and trickery. This is all designed to slander and discredit the many who have found help in the AA program.
I have no doubt that there are other means of getting sober. It is interesting to me that Christianity and alcoholism are being argued on the same thread. Of course AA was founded on fundamental Christian beliefs. The same fundamental beliefs that other religions, self help programs, and many societies are based on. That doesn't mean that Christians are the only "right" recovering people. Today I celebrate my own beliefs and respect everyone else's. If others are happy with their beliefs, I celebrate their happiness. If they are lost, I offer my way, but don't demand that they take it. Hooah for Christians! Hooah for atheists! Hooah for those recovering, with or without a 12 step program! Hooah for those who hate AA! Hooah for the human race!

Your faithful pagan, Magic

Me2

To me AA is very Christian....and the 12 steps are very effective,yet its been re-edited through the years to be inclusive to all faiths and this I might add is to thier credit,yet it may have attributed to thier lower sucess rates. Don and I fight like cats and dogs at times but in the end we are brothers in the fight against stopping drinking. Mature adult disagreements are not only productive ...they are healthy...steel sharpens steel and we must be big enough to bring our ideas into the market place..I deal a lot better with honesty than the opposite in all its various forms...This post has taught me a lot...Ive gleaned from it things that Ive implemented into my thinking...I wouldnt ever have aroused that thinking from others if I just played it safe and was saying yes I agree everyday...this may not be the site for the recovery novice but its a great one for others...Ive always wondered why the things I like to talk about people say you shouldnt discuss.The main thing is like the U.S.A. we can fight amongst ourselves...all races,creeds and religions...but try to take away our freedom and you can deal with us all...Alcohol is our common enemy and we can fight it together with all our different beliefs....thankfully this is a place I can mention my faith in Jesus without to much heat....steve