Empty Tomb and AA
Member
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Northern CA
Posts: 1,432
Originally Posted by Me2
In Psalm 22 God fortold His own death,,,1500 years before it acutally happened....(a historical fact) its was 300 years later before crucfixtion was even discovered by the Persian's...so Dan please before you lecture me about AA,why dont you re-read the 12 steps.......and study history..there is an empty tomb...there are 12 steps...if you disagree maybe I need some FACTS rather than your oppinion...Steve
Maybe I'm missing something here, or you had the wrong Psalm. I'm not seeing anything in here about God foretelling his own death.
http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/b...22&version=NIV
Don S
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Central Valley
Posts: 175
Don
Originally Posted by Don S
For some reason, steve, you think I've been arguing with you about the religious history of AA. From your link and other sources, I've concluded that Dr. Bob was very religious--possibly fundamentalist--and that Bill Wilson was less so. In fact, your link indicates that the program was already taking two somewhat different directions:
These special Akron features differed substantially from the Oxford Group approaches and principles with which Bill Wilson had been indoctrinated on the East Coast. They did not involve the Four Absolutes, nor the 5 C’s, nor “Restitution,� nor “Guidance,� nor “sharing for witness,� nor other distinctly Oxford Group ideas with which Bob and Bill were both familiar from their respective Oxford Group connections.
The Akron prayer meetings, Bible studies, discussions from devotional literature, confessions of Christ, encouragement as to church affiliation and Christian outreach were a distinct characteristic of the Akron program. They were not emphasized in New York.
Many on this forum have expressed a different approach to the concept of a higher power than yours. You seem to think that any sobriety which isn't based on a fundamentalist born-again Christian faith is somehow flawed or inadequate.
Would you think that AA would be better or more effective if it operated that way? How many current members do you think would remain with it? And what would you then suggest for non-believers who wished to become sober? That they must convert to truly achieve long-term sobriety?
Nice post, Alice! And best wishes on this most important holiday of your faith, steve.
Don S
These special Akron features differed substantially from the Oxford Group approaches and principles with which Bill Wilson had been indoctrinated on the East Coast. They did not involve the Four Absolutes, nor the 5 C’s, nor “Restitution,� nor “Guidance,� nor “sharing for witness,� nor other distinctly Oxford Group ideas with which Bob and Bill were both familiar from their respective Oxford Group connections.
The Akron prayer meetings, Bible studies, discussions from devotional literature, confessions of Christ, encouragement as to church affiliation and Christian outreach were a distinct characteristic of the Akron program. They were not emphasized in New York.
Many on this forum have expressed a different approach to the concept of a higher power than yours. You seem to think that any sobriety which isn't based on a fundamentalist born-again Christian faith is somehow flawed or inadequate.
Would you think that AA would be better or more effective if it operated that way? How many current members do you think would remain with it? And what would you then suggest for non-believers who wished to become sober? That they must convert to truly achieve long-term sobriety?
Nice post, Alice! And best wishes on this most important holiday of your faith, steve.
Don S
Don.. you know for all our disagreements I can always count on an honest oppinion from you and your a person who thinks before they speak...I like you...I dont have to continue..I just was trying to express my joy in sobriety and that once you learn to live the 12 steps they almost become just one step....and then they become like breathing...and then the recovery machine starts to roll.....and when I extend that into Easter and a risen savior...its sometimes almost to awesome to keep quiet about..I respect others oppinions...but I do have a very competitive side when it comes to contending for truth...and probably to some seems like its contentious...but its not meant to be that way..When Jesus preached He said he who has ears to hear let him hear..but of course they all had ears...He was referring to spiritual ears and in this "recovery board market place of ideas" I just want to share mine in hopes that a person searching may find encouragment...Don please have a great day...and even you dangerous Dan....enjoy this great day....steve
Last edited by Me2; 04-11-2004 at 12:56 PM. Reason: spelling
Member
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: out there...
Posts: 2,653
Drunks by Jack McCarthy
Every time I read this I get tears of gratitude streaming down my face..And all of a sudden all the opinions and hype surrounding the prpgrams don't matter. What matters is we don't have to die anymore.
We died of pneumonia in furnished rooms where they found us three days later when somebody complained about the smell.
We died against bridge abutments and nobody knew if it was suicide and we probably didn't know either except in the sense that it was always suicide.
We died in hospitals, our stomachs huge, distended and there was nothing they could do.
We died in cells, never knowing whether we were guilty or not.
We went to priests, they gave us pledges, they told us to pray, they told us to go and sin no more, but go. We tried and we died.
We died of overdoses, we died in bed (but usually not the Big Bed)
We died in straitjackets, in the DT's seeing God knows what, creeping skittering slithering shuffling things.
And you know what the worst thing was? The worst thing was that nobody ever believed how hard we tried.
We went to doctors and they gave us stuff to take that would make us sick when we drank on the principle of so crazy, it just might work, I guess, or maybe they just shook their heads and sent us to places like Dropkick Murphy's.
And when we got out we were hooked on paraldehyde or maybe we lied to the doctors and they told us not to drink so much, just drink like me. And we tried, and we died.
We drowned in our own vomit or choked on it, our broken jaws wired shut. We died playing Russian roulette and people thought we'd lost, but we knew better.
We died under the hoofs of horses, under the wheels of vehicles, under the knives and boot heels of our brother drunks.
We died in shame.
And you know what was even worse, was that we couldn't believe it ourselves, that we had tried.
We figured we just thought we tried and we died believing that we hadn't tried, believing that we didn't know what it meant to try.
When we were desperate enough or hopeful or deluded or embattled enough to go for help we went to people with letters after their names and prayed that they might have read the right books that had the right words in them, never suspecting the terrifying truth, that the right words, as simple as they were, had not been written yet.
We died falling off girders on high buildings, because of course ironworkers drink, of course they do.
We died with a shotgun in our mouth, or jumping off a bridge, and everybody knew it was suicide.
We died under the Southeast Expressway, with our hands tied behind us and a bullet in the back of our head, because this time the people that we disappointed were the wrong people.
We died in convulsions, or of "insult to the brain", we died incontinent, and in disgrace, abandoned .
If we were women, we died degraded, because women have so much more to live up to.
We tried and we died and nobody cried. And the very worst thing was that for every one of us that died, there were another hundred of us, or another thousand, who wished that we could die, who went to sleep praying we would not have to wake up because what we were enduring was intolerable and we knew in our hearts it wasn't ever gonna change.
One day in a hospital room in New York City, one of us had what the books call a transforming spiritual experience, and he said to himself "I've got it ." (no, you haven't you've only got part of it) " and I have to share it." (now you've ALMOST got it) and he kept trying to give it away, but we couldn't hear it. We tried and we died.
We died of one last cigarette, the comfort of its glowing in the dark. We passed out and the bed caught fire. They said we suffocated before our body burned, they said we never felt a thing , that was the best way maybe that we died, except sometimes we took our family with us.
And the man in New York was so sure he had it, he tried to love us into sobriety, but that didn't work either, love confuses drunks and he tried and we still died.
One after another we got his hopes up and we broke his heart,
Because that's what we do.
And the worst thing was that every time we thought we knew what the worst thing was something happened that was worse.
Until a day came in a hotel lobby and it wasn't in Rome, or Jerusalem, Or Mecca or even Dublin, or South Boston, it was in Akron, Ohio, for Christ's sake.
A day came when the man said I have to find a drunk because I need him As much as he needs me (NOW you've got it).
And the transmission line, after all those years, was open, the transmission line was open. And now we don't go to priests, and we don't go to doctors and people with letters after their names.
We come to people who have been there, we come to each other. We come to try and we don't have to die.........
We died against bridge abutments and nobody knew if it was suicide and we probably didn't know either except in the sense that it was always suicide.
We died in hospitals, our stomachs huge, distended and there was nothing they could do.
We died in cells, never knowing whether we were guilty or not.
We went to priests, they gave us pledges, they told us to pray, they told us to go and sin no more, but go. We tried and we died.
We died of overdoses, we died in bed (but usually not the Big Bed)
We died in straitjackets, in the DT's seeing God knows what, creeping skittering slithering shuffling things.
And you know what the worst thing was? The worst thing was that nobody ever believed how hard we tried.
We went to doctors and they gave us stuff to take that would make us sick when we drank on the principle of so crazy, it just might work, I guess, or maybe they just shook their heads and sent us to places like Dropkick Murphy's.
And when we got out we were hooked on paraldehyde or maybe we lied to the doctors and they told us not to drink so much, just drink like me. And we tried, and we died.
We drowned in our own vomit or choked on it, our broken jaws wired shut. We died playing Russian roulette and people thought we'd lost, but we knew better.
We died under the hoofs of horses, under the wheels of vehicles, under the knives and boot heels of our brother drunks.
We died in shame.
And you know what was even worse, was that we couldn't believe it ourselves, that we had tried.
We figured we just thought we tried and we died believing that we hadn't tried, believing that we didn't know what it meant to try.
When we were desperate enough or hopeful or deluded or embattled enough to go for help we went to people with letters after their names and prayed that they might have read the right books that had the right words in them, never suspecting the terrifying truth, that the right words, as simple as they were, had not been written yet.
We died falling off girders on high buildings, because of course ironworkers drink, of course they do.
We died with a shotgun in our mouth, or jumping off a bridge, and everybody knew it was suicide.
We died under the Southeast Expressway, with our hands tied behind us and a bullet in the back of our head, because this time the people that we disappointed were the wrong people.
We died in convulsions, or of "insult to the brain", we died incontinent, and in disgrace, abandoned .
If we were women, we died degraded, because women have so much more to live up to.
We tried and we died and nobody cried. And the very worst thing was that for every one of us that died, there were another hundred of us, or another thousand, who wished that we could die, who went to sleep praying we would not have to wake up because what we were enduring was intolerable and we knew in our hearts it wasn't ever gonna change.
One day in a hospital room in New York City, one of us had what the books call a transforming spiritual experience, and he said to himself "I've got it ." (no, you haven't you've only got part of it) " and I have to share it." (now you've ALMOST got it) and he kept trying to give it away, but we couldn't hear it. We tried and we died.
We died of one last cigarette, the comfort of its glowing in the dark. We passed out and the bed caught fire. They said we suffocated before our body burned, they said we never felt a thing , that was the best way maybe that we died, except sometimes we took our family with us.
And the man in New York was so sure he had it, he tried to love us into sobriety, but that didn't work either, love confuses drunks and he tried and we still died.
One after another we got his hopes up and we broke his heart,
Because that's what we do.
And the worst thing was that every time we thought we knew what the worst thing was something happened that was worse.
Until a day came in a hotel lobby and it wasn't in Rome, or Jerusalem, Or Mecca or even Dublin, or South Boston, it was in Akron, Ohio, for Christ's sake.
A day came when the man said I have to find a drunk because I need him As much as he needs me (NOW you've got it).
And the transmission line, after all those years, was open, the transmission line was open. And now we don't go to priests, and we don't go to doctors and people with letters after their names.
We come to people who have been there, we come to each other. We come to try and we don't have to die.........
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Central Valley
Posts: 175
Originally Posted by Don S
For some reason, steve, you think I've been arguing with you about the religious history of AA. From your link and other sources, I've concluded that Dr. Bob was very religious--possibly fundamentalist--and that Bill Wilson was less so. In fact, your link indicates that the program was already taking two somewhat different directions:
These special Akron features differed substantially from the Oxford Group approaches and principles with which Bill Wilson had been indoctrinated on the East Coast. They did not involve the Four Absolutes, nor the 5 C’s, nor “Restitution,� nor “Guidance,� nor “sharing for witness,� nor other distinctly Oxford Group ideas with which Bob and Bill were both familiar from their respective Oxford Group connections.
The Akron prayer meetings, Bible studies, discussions from devotional literature, confessions of Christ, encouragement as to church affiliation and Christian outreach were a distinct characteristic of the Akron program. They were not emphasized in New York.
Many on this forum have expressed a different approach to the concept of a higher power than yours. You seem to think that any sobriety which isn't based on a fundamentalist born-again Christian faith is somehow flawed or inadequate.
Would you think that AA would be better or more effective if it operated that way? How many current members do you think would remain with it? And what would you then suggest for non-believers who wished to become sober? That they must convert to truly achieve long-term sobriety?
Nice post, Alice! And best wishes on this most important holiday of your faith, steve.
Don S
These special Akron features differed substantially from the Oxford Group approaches and principles with which Bill Wilson had been indoctrinated on the East Coast. They did not involve the Four Absolutes, nor the 5 C’s, nor “Restitution,� nor “Guidance,� nor “sharing for witness,� nor other distinctly Oxford Group ideas with which Bob and Bill were both familiar from their respective Oxford Group connections.
The Akron prayer meetings, Bible studies, discussions from devotional literature, confessions of Christ, encouragement as to church affiliation and Christian outreach were a distinct characteristic of the Akron program. They were not emphasized in New York.
Many on this forum have expressed a different approach to the concept of a higher power than yours. You seem to think that any sobriety which isn't based on a fundamentalist born-again Christian faith is somehow flawed or inadequate.
Would you think that AA would be better or more effective if it operated that way? How many current members do you think would remain with it? And what would you then suggest for non-believers who wished to become sober? That they must convert to truly achieve long-term sobriety?
Nice post, Alice! And best wishes on this most important holiday of your faith, steve.
Don S
Member
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Buford, GA
Posts: 55
Steve, sounds like you're trying to stir up controversy that doesn't really exist.
Suggested reading:
The first 164 pages of the AA big book, "Dr. Bob and the Good Old-Timers"
and "One River, Many Wells" by Father Matthew Fox
You said:
"as time passed AA has been through the years degraded to encompass other beleifs, it is quite plausible that this can be argued as a reason to expalin the differnece of the early sucess rates of AA when compared to current ones"
So what's the argument? It sounds like you're saying that because AA is not a Christian movement that it has somehow become cheapened by offering a program for ALL alcoholics and that because of this "cheapening" a smaller percentage of alcoholics are recovering. Do believe one can live a spiritual life without Christianity? Or is christianity the Only way? It also sounds like you're saying you would like a program that's based on the Scriptures of Your Religion of Choice. So, start another Oxford Group! Why not?
peace and love!
-Josh
Suggested reading:
The first 164 pages of the AA big book, "Dr. Bob and the Good Old-Timers"
and "One River, Many Wells" by Father Matthew Fox
You said:
"as time passed AA has been through the years degraded to encompass other beleifs, it is quite plausible that this can be argued as a reason to expalin the differnece of the early sucess rates of AA when compared to current ones"
So what's the argument? It sounds like you're saying that because AA is not a Christian movement that it has somehow become cheapened by offering a program for ALL alcoholics and that because of this "cheapening" a smaller percentage of alcoholics are recovering. Do believe one can live a spiritual life without Christianity? Or is christianity the Only way? It also sounds like you're saying you would like a program that's based on the Scriptures of Your Religion of Choice. So, start another Oxford Group! Why not?
peace and love!
-Josh
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Central Valley
Posts: 175
Originally Posted by Gooch
If that were the case my clean date would be in 1977 instead of 1991.
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Central Valley
Posts: 175
Hi
Originally Posted by Gooch
Every time I read this I get tears of gratitude streaming down my face..And all of a sudden all the opinions and hype surrounding the prpgrams don't matter. What matters is we don't have to die anymore.
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Central Valley
Posts: 175
Hi Josh
Originally Posted by NotThatThirsty
Steve, sounds like you're trying to stir up controversy that doesn't really exist.
Suggested reading:
The first 164 pages of the AA big book, "Dr. Bob and the Good Old-Timers"
and "One River, Many Wells" by Father Matthew Fox
You said:
"as time passed AA has been through the years degraded to encompass other beleifs, it is quite plausible that this can be argued as a reason to expalin the differnece of the early sucess rates of AA when compared to current ones"
So what's the argument? It sounds like you're saying that because AA is not a Christian movement that it has somehow become cheapened by offering a program for ALL alcoholics and that because of this "cheapening" a smaller percentage of alcoholics are recovering. Do believe one can live a spiritual life without Christianity? Or is christianity the Only way? It also sounds like you're saying you would like a program that's based on the Scriptures of Your Religion of Choice. So, start another Oxford Group! Why not?
peace and love!
-Josh
Suggested reading:
The first 164 pages of the AA big book, "Dr. Bob and the Good Old-Timers"
and "One River, Many Wells" by Father Matthew Fox
You said:
"as time passed AA has been through the years degraded to encompass other beleifs, it is quite plausible that this can be argued as a reason to expalin the differnece of the early sucess rates of AA when compared to current ones"
So what's the argument? It sounds like you're saying that because AA is not a Christian movement that it has somehow become cheapened by offering a program for ALL alcoholics and that because of this "cheapening" a smaller percentage of alcoholics are recovering. Do believe one can live a spiritual life without Christianity? Or is christianity the Only way? It also sounds like you're saying you would like a program that's based on the Scriptures of Your Religion of Choice. So, start another Oxford Group! Why not?
peace and love!
-Josh
Member
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Buford, GA
Posts: 55
First things First
Originally Posted by Me2
On your other question let me ask you these two questions.
Think about Acceptance and how it may apply in this instance.
-Josh
Member
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: out there...
Posts: 2,653
Originally Posted by Me2
Your quotes were mostly " we" .:
I quoted it exactly as the man wrote it to the best of my knowledge.
Originally Posted by Me2
..because we live in a world where its always somebody elses fault..no one every opened your mouth and dumped a 5th of Vodka down your throat, you chose to drink,...I do agree with Don in one regard...Every alcholic decided one day they would choose alcohol....
Originally Posted by Me2
Please....Gooch dont blame me or God for your poor choices..that is fraud...you must be held accountible for your lame choices....:
The only thing I would fault you for is arrogance.
If you feel that you are being persecuted or blamed for anything, those are your issues to discuss with your sponsor.
Originally Posted by Me2
Don and I just disagree on how you get to the recovery zone...Steve :angel2
I guess maybe what bugs me is that I recognize intolerance when I see it, I despise it in me so yours makes for a glaring reflection.
Member
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Los Angeles, Ca.
Posts: 353
I think the negative posting should cease. what is the argument about anyway? Me2 if you truly believe in Jesus than you should remember that in his last sermon, he told everyone to LOVE one another. it does not appear that your motivation in posting is LOVE. I would respect you and your beliefs much more if you exemplified what Jesus taught before he left this world. your posts are very defensive and combative. if you are a little embarassed or feeling bad that you offended some people in your original post than just acknowledge and apologize if you feel the need to. it's hard when we back ourselves into a corner.(pride/embarassment) people around here have a great capacity for forgiveness and understanding.
we do not need to argue or post in a negative manner. this is not the place for it. this is a place of non judgement, LOVE and understanding. we are just human beings with our faults and failings and we need to LOVE one another. That concept is in EVERY practice and or religion. if you believe christianity is what got you sober good for you. there should be no need to argue the point or try to force others to agree with you. you are certainly entitled to your beliefs but you are most definitely not entitled to insult or judge the beliefs of others who come here in the hope of getting support and love while trying to get sober.
shame on you for trying to hurt people instead of love them. now knock it off.
we do not need to argue or post in a negative manner. this is not the place for it. this is a place of non judgement, LOVE and understanding. we are just human beings with our faults and failings and we need to LOVE one another. That concept is in EVERY practice and or religion. if you believe christianity is what got you sober good for you. there should be no need to argue the point or try to force others to agree with you. you are certainly entitled to your beliefs but you are most definitely not entitled to insult or judge the beliefs of others who come here in the hope of getting support and love while trying to get sober.
shame on you for trying to hurt people instead of love them. now knock it off.
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