Boleo

I don't view my sobriety as contingent on anything EXTERNAL. However, it is contingent on my staying spiritually fit. Something which is entirely within my internal locus of control at this point.

I don't need meetings to stay sober. I don't need fellowship to stay sober. I don't need entertainment to stay sober. I don't need encouragement to stay sober. I don't need any form of material prosperity to stay sober. I just need spiritual prosperity to stay sober. Something I can find all alone even when isolated.

"A man should measure his wealth by that which he does not need".
- an old Buddhist saying.

CarolD

Hi Everyone ....

I've moved this thread over to our Alcoholism Forum
from it's beginning in Alcoholism 12 Step Support Forum.

Why? now more members can share their expereince and or
discuss the topic of powerlessness
who may or may not be useing the AA program...

Thanks to all who have already shared with their POV.

My POV? there is simply no one way to find a better
sober future. I hope everyone will find something that works

BackToSquareOne

Here's something I always wondered about in regard to powerlessness. Maybe an AA person can shed some light on this. In the 12 step approach we're expected to make amends for things we are told we were powerless over. We don't make amends for having a heart condition or cancer or whatever so then why make amends for things done in a drunken state if we were equally powerless over that?

vivid-red

I don't like this powerless thing in AA.....I think it should be the opposite - you should believe you have full power to master this addiction.

Taking5

You don't make amends for being a drunk, you make amends for the bad things you have done, regardless if it was related to your drunkenness or not. A few hypothetical examples:

1) You stole money from an employer - apologize and pay it back.

2) You bad-mouthed someone in front of others, and that person didn't deserve it - apologize, and come clean to the 3rd parties who heard the bad mouthing that it was misguided and wrong of you to do this.

3) You got drunk and missed or "messed up" a family function like a wedding, reunion, graduation, etc. - apologize to everyone that went there, and ask what you can do to make it right. If you get responses to how to make it right, and you can do it, then you should do it.

Note that while an apology is present in all 3 of my examples, an apology does not equal an amends. An amends will often require action on your part beyond apologizing.

In example 3 above, it may be that you can never make it right - graduations don't happen every day - so maybe an apology is all you can offer. Examples 1 and 2 require the action I mentioned, specifically paying back the money and coming clean about your gossiping.

I hope that helps.

Sapling

I don't think I'd be here if I did.

vivid-red

Of course, whatever works best for each individual is what matters.....

It doesn't matter at all how one gets sober as long as he does.

freshstart57

This is getting us closer to the basis of the powerlessness doctrine, I think. Unlike some of us, I and OTT (and others too) have a sobriety that is unconditional. Nothing is required now for us to stay sober, nothing external or internal. There is no situation that we could find ourselves in that will now make us drink. Weddings, parties, funerals, bars? Nope. There is no event that could happen in our lives that will now make us drink. Divorce, loss of job, death of family member or close friend, medical diagnosis, nothing. There is no feeling or mental state that will make us drink, no depression, no anger, no anxiety, no spiritual state. There is nothing that is now required of us to stay sober, no meetings, amends, inventories. This is what is meant by unconditional. Bullet and bomb proof. For good.

Spiritual health, just like physical or mental health, is something essential to our nature as humans, should be sought, and is an end in itself. In the same way, sobriety is an end in itself, and is its own reward.

Because sobriety is an end in itself, getting to that point is the important part, not the route taken. The manner in which sobriety is achieved and maintained, empowered or powerless, doesn't matter in the final analysis. We are sober, we are free.

Sapling

You ever wonder why the first step isn't "I"m an alcoholic and I can't drink...And my life could use some direction."? The way I see it the word is used to open the door to the rest of the steps.

onlythetruth

Okay, let me explain my comment that I don't view my sobriety as being contingent on anything.

This thread was started with the question of, basically, why some people have a problem with the idea of powerlessness. I think this is a good, relevant question, so even though it was originally posted in a 12 step forum (where I very rarely participate), I decided to respond.

My response was that some of us (including me) perhaps don't so much have a problem with the idea of being powerless per se, as with the concept that follows on its heels in 12 step programs: the idea that since the individual is powerless, the power to recover comes from OUTSIDE the person, meaning that sobriety is conditional upon that that outside power.

As in: "What we really have is a daily reprieve contingent on the maintenance of our spiritual condition". — (AA BB p.85) 1st. Edition

I do not see my sobriety as contingent on ANYTHING, including my "spiritual condition." In fact, for me, the notion that sobriety is contingent on something as amorphous as "spiritual condition" can provide a handy excuse for relapse: "I guess I drank because I wasn't spiritually fit." To me this is nonsense. For me it is a bright line. I do not drink, I never will, end of story.

I hope this helps and further hope that folks will keep in mind that this is how I see it. If the concept of powerlessness and sobriety being contingent on an outside force floats someone else's boat, I'm cool with that.

Sapling

I have two gentlemen both celebrating 50 years sober in AA this year in my homegroup...There must be something to it.

Mark75

Thanx OTT... yea I get that absolutely. And, you are always welcome to participate in the 12 step forum as far as I am concerned... seriously.

I think too much is made of this... sometimes.

Remember that some people in early sobriety are still in a vulnerable state and their sobriety and state of mind are somewhat tenuous and unstable... For these chronic alcoholics ("real" alcoholics as defined in the big book), as was my experience, once the pills and alcohol were gone, I was, well lost. This idea of being spiritually fit appealed to me and gave me hope and direction. A purpose. All that...

Now, I can say, today it is my spiritual fitness that makes it so that my sobriety is not continent on anything.

And that we are not so different, you and I.



You know, maintaining spiritual fitness can be as simple as just not drinking or taking pills, showing up for work on time and treating others the same way I would want to be treated...

Spiritual fitness is not, for me, amorphous or mystical...

Words... Powerless, Spiritual... sometimes they are divisive, which is a shame really.

BackToSquareOne

Thanks for the reply Taking5, I guess being brought up in the Catholic Faith and being taught the doctrine of free will, the commandments and drunkness labeled as a sin that I always saw somewhat of a disconnect with the powerlessness doctrine. Don't know if this makes any sense but you can understand the meaning yet still have issues with the words.

Having been deeply in the throes of addiction more times than I care to think about I can understand the feelings of utter powerlessness as the brain chemistry is hijacked by addiction. The primitive brain function and all of the chemical pathways of addiction are well understood by science, none of that is really anything new.

Once I became mindful of all of that I came to realize that the Primitive Brain was just doing what Primitive Brains do. I guess the breakthrough for me was a realization or deep knowing that what I saw as utter powerlessness were only thoughts and I always had the power to say no to the thoughts if I wanted to. Minds will wander off in thought and there is littlle we can do to stop that, but we do have the power to act on the thoughts or not.

I guess we often lose touch with just how powerful words can be and powerlessness is a very loaded and powerful word. Discussion leads to deeper understanding and solutions even if it brings about different opinions. Here's something John Wayne said : http://www.cowboyway.com/Music/Clips/IWontBeWronged.wav
I like those words as I think we should never wrong or insult each other as we're all fighting the same battle. I hope no one takes insult when different opinions are given.

Does there really need to be a right and wrong side or can some things just be open to interpretation? Here's some of my favorites that I see as open to a wide range of interpretation : Powerlessness, The Disease Concept, the terms, Real Alcoholic, Dry Drunk, The ism of alcoholism, recovered or forever in recovery and others I don't remember at the moment.

Good discussion, a lot of different opinions and that's as it should be. Happy Wednesday to all!!

Boleo

For me, sobriety is a life & death issue. I want the most reliable recovery possible. "Pretty good" recovery is not good enough for the same reason "pretty good" brakes on my car is not good enough.

Also for me recovery is a life long journey. I want the most comfortable way to stay sober. Managing my abstinence ODAAT is not my idea of being comfortable in my own skin. I want the peace of mind, joy and sense of purpose that goes with spiritual based recovery.

"There are no wrong ways to stay sober".
(sure seems like there are plenty of unreliable ways to stay sober)

chillduke

Interesting post,I dont think I bought into the powerless thing ever,but after a 15 year relapse,I sure as hell am and even knowing this I dont ever say never,The Big Book been around as long as it has because the truth does not change,we are different than others,even heavy drinkers as some one pointed out,its a daily reprieve only.I am far from happy today but not sufffering the awful after effects of alcohol.The native americans called alcohol spirits,it is an evil powerful spirit in there but the longer you stay away the weaker it becomes,dont ever relapse if you can help it,it comes back with a vengeance,the 2nd times a lot harder.Im not a big meeting person but you need to meet people in common with you,I have to write a few post because im new,sorry if Im long winded.

Sapling

Welcome to SR chillduke!!

CarolD

chillduke...

Glad you found us....Welcome to our recovery community

freshstart57

There is nothing 'pretty good' about permanent unconditional sobriety. Unconditional sobriety is absolute. To take up your mechanical metaphor, what I have described are brakes that stop instantly, no matter what the road conditions are. There is nothing unreliable there.

I answered a question about the meaning of unconditional in the context of sobriety, and then offered acceptance of ways other than my own. Some need assistance with their sobriety due to their perception of their addiction, some don't. We seem to be in full agreement on this. I also agree that sobriety that depends on anything else can be unreliable and will fail if those conditions it depends on are not met. 'Pretty good' is just fine if that is what you have.

grateful850

I lost the power of choice over alcohol. Meaning I would lie or steal from people I loved just to afford my next drink. Even though it hurt me to do those things at the time, I had to do whatever it took to get drunk and there was no other option. Because off aa I have 9 beautiful months of sobriety

Fallow

Fantastic responses here thanks..

I have a bunch to say but on my phone so not now

I can say for many reasons I still cannot reconcile this issue.

Although I have no problem admitting powerlessness over alcohol by my definition, I am having trouble connecting that to why I should quit for good.

Also, since I accept powerlessness over so much of life the feeling is normal to me. I dont use any steps to deal with that other stuff..I just accept it as part of life.
Hard to convince myself I need too!

Now I actually want to work the steps, especially to get to step 12.

But I need to go in 100 percent.

Need to get to the bottom of this with myself.

Ill toss in some other thoughts tomorrow.

I originally put this in 12 step because I wanted to avoid arguing.

Thanks for not arguing