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Old 09-17-2012, 04:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Fallow View Post
I've read RR too, and a bunch of threads and arguments for and against AA.
When I was working in the field, I read through all of the information provided on the RR website and watched videos with Jack Trimpey as well. It boggled my mind. It looks to me that Trimpey has a load of experience through middle-of-the-road-AA, and based on some huge misconceptions and misunderstandings, like much of those that come through our rooms, he has no idea what the program of AA actually is.
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Old 09-17-2012, 08:24 AM
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I have much more trouble turning my will over on a daily basis than i do admitting I am powerless over something lol
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Old 09-17-2012, 01:07 PM
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Originally Posted by todd6138 View Post
I have much more trouble turning my will over on a daily basis than i do admitting I am powerless over something lol

7 years into recovery and man can i relate!1 sometimes, i want for God to turn His will over! i hear Him laugh when that thought comes up.
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Old 09-17-2012, 01:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Fallow
Why is it that people have such an issue with the idea of being powerless over something? I mean I've noticed that people really rebel against that idea with all of their might!
The answer to your question lies in the matter called 'locus of control', and it's a fundamental aspect of our individual and unique personalities.
A locus of control is a person's belief about how much power one has over the events in one's life. According to psychologist Julian Rotter, who formulated the concept in the 1950s, the locus of control is a dimension of personality; it helps explain one's traits and behavior. An internal locus of control is the belief that the course of one's life is largely up to oneself. Those with an external locus of control regard the events in their lives as occurring regardless of their own efforts.
Originally Posted by awuh1
Other programs need to acknowledge that the folks they help are powerless (in the sense of not having sufficient power). People who wish to use AVRT need to learn about AVRT (gain sufficient power) to do it, hence they are powerless (lacking sufficient power).
Now consider this. It's said that knowledge is power. What happens if we say then that powerlessness means lacking in knowledge? This makes the reading of the first step easier to understand: 'We admitted we were powerless over alcohol' becomes 'We admitted we didn't know how to quit'. The result is the same but the the direction that is suggested is completely different. The first leads to recourse to an external force, a higher power if you will, while the second leads to a search for the missing piece of information. The first appeals to those with an external locus, the second makes sense to those with an internal locus of control.
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Old 09-17-2012, 01:53 PM
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That locus of control, I have heard that presented before... and, hmm, I don't think it's that cut and dry and black and white...

You mentioned about not knowing how to quit... but what about not wanting to? Which, of course, not that same as knowing that one should...

How does one change that, when the locus of control is internal, and that's the freakin' problem...

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Old 09-17-2012, 02:10 PM
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But what about not wanting to quit? How does one change that, when the locus of control is internal?
Hmmm. Not sure that there is much to be said or done for those folks who don't want to quit drinking. You know the bit - 'I don't have a drinking problem. I drink, I get drunk, I fall down, no problem.'

I realize that is being glib. I agree that there certainly is a continuum with this locus thing, and we none of us are this or that, cut and dried, black or white.
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Old 09-17-2012, 02:13 PM
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Yea, that's cool... I just found myself unable to relate to that locus concept when I first heard it... I have a much too well developed locus of control... I'd always rather do it myself, to the point of being ridiculous sometimes...

I could not get right until I ceded that one thing, that it wasn't up to me anymore...
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Old 09-17-2012, 02:23 PM
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Sure i had a problem admitting powerlessness......for quite a while.

Alcohol made me feel powerful not powerless...actually thinking about it, i found admitting anything objectionable.

The truth was i was completely powerless.

If i drank it, id drink it till my legs gave way or my eyes shut...mostly both.

And if i wasn't drinking it, id obsess about drinking till it so unbearable , i drank.
and there wasn't much not drinking time to be honest....24 hours was tough, in the end 20 minutes was tough.

So i have a type of allergy that keeps me drinking once ingested .
And a mental obsession that will drive me to do it all over again.

cant drink....cant not drink.........powerless .
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Old 09-17-2012, 02:49 PM
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My mother abused Valium. So for the first half of the month she would be
in 'LA LA Land" and the second half of the month she would be a 'royal
biotch'.

I had been sober a few years when she decided to try Al Anon. She could
not get past the first step because zhe just not accept the fact that she was
powerless over anything. Even though SHE could not get me to stop
drinking nor could SHE get my father to stop drinking. We would talk about
the 'steps' quite a bit, but she just could not accept Step 1.

However, I sure did!!! And the longer I am sober the more I have come
to the conclusion that I am POWERLESS over just about everything in my
life, and the best I can do for me, is to treat ALL other folks the way I
would like to be treated.

Now for the contradiction. I found when I finally ACCEPTED that I was
powerless over alcohol and my life had definitely become unmanageable
that I had more 'power' (over me) than I had ever had!!!! Now you
figure that one out, roflmao



I still, once in a while, when I am extremely stressed that the 'thought'
of a drink 'fixing' it, whatever 'it' is, is just a thought and I do have the
power today, to erase tha thought and do something 'nice' for me instead.
I have the power!!!!! I did not have the power those many years ago,
when I first found recovery.

POWERLESS when I first came to AA? You bet!!!!! POWERLESS now?
Nope NO WAY! Thanks to the program of AA and my working the steps
and then learning how to "LIVE" the steps ll these years!!

Love and hugs,
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Old 09-17-2012, 03:22 PM
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I think people see the word powerless and use it out of context. It doesn't say we're powerless people, it says we're powerless OVER ALCOHOL.
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Old 09-17-2012, 05:42 PM
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Originally Posted by freshstart57 View Post
Quote: Originally Posted by awuh1
Other programs need to acknowledge that the folks they help are powerless (in the sense of not having sufficient power). People who wish to use AVRT need to learn about AVRT (gain sufficient power) to do it, hence they are powerless (lacking sufficient power).
Now consider this. It's said that knowledge is power. What happens if we say then that powerlessness means lacking in knowledge? This makes the reading of the first step easier to understand: 'We admitted we were powerless over alcohol' becomes 'We admitted we didn't know how to quit'. The result is the same but the the direction that is suggested is completely different. The first leads to recourse to an external force, a higher power if you will, while the second leads to a search for the missing piece of information. The first appeals to those with an external locus, the second makes sense to those with an internal locus of control."
For the alcoholic of the chronic variety as outlined in the Big Book of AA, self-knowledge is not enough.




From "Bill's Story":

"It relieved me somewhat to learn that in alcoholics the will is amazingly weakened when it comes to combating liquor, though it often remains strong in other respects. My incredible behavior in the face of a desperate desire to stop was explained. Understanding myself now, I fared forth in high hope. For three or four months the goose hung high. I went to town regularly and even made a little money. Surely this was the answer-self-knowledge.

But it was not,
for the frightful day came when I drank once more. The curve of my declining moral and bodily health fell off like a ski-jump. After a time I returned to the hospital. This was the finish, the curtain, it seemed to me. My weary and despairing wife was informed that it would all end with heart failure during delirium tremens, or I would soon have to give me over to the undertaker or the asylum.

From Jim's story in "More About Alcoholism":
"Thus started one more journey to the asylum for Jim. Here was the threat of commitment, the loss of family and position, to say nothing of that intense mental and physical suffering which drinking always caused him. He had much knowledge about himself as an alcoholic. Yet all reasons for not drinking were easily pushed aside in favor of the foolish idea that he could take whiskey if only he mixed it with milk!

Whatever the precise definition of the word may be, we call this plain insanity. How can such a lack of proportion, of the ability to think straight, be called anything else?"

From "More About Alcoholism":
"Some of you are thinking: “Yes, what you tell is true, but it doesn’t fully apply. We admit we have some of these symptoms, but we have not gone to the extremes you fellows did, nor are we likely to, for we understand ourselves so well after what you have told us that such things cannot happen again. We have not lost everything in life through drinking and we certainly do not intend to. Thanks for the information.”

That may be true of certain nonalcoholic people who, though drinking foolishly and heavily at the present time, are able to stop or moderate, because their brains and bodies have not been damaged as ours were. But the actual or potential alcoholic, with hardly any exception, will be absolutely unable to stop drinking on the basis of self-knowledge. This is a point we wish to emphasize and re-emphasize, to smash home upon our alcoholic readers as it has been revealed to us out of bitter experience."
From Fred's story in "More About Alcoholism":

"We told him what we knew about alcoholism. He was interested and conceded that he had some of the symptoms, but he was a long way from admitting that he could do nothing about it himself. He was positive that this humiliating experience, plus the knowledge he had acquired, would keep him sober the rest of his life. Self-knowledge would fix it.

We heard no more of Fred for a while. One day we were told that he was back in the hospital. This time he was quite shaky. He soon indicated he was anxious to see us. The story he told is most instructive, for here was a chap absolutely convinced he had to stop drinking, who had no excuse for drinking, who exhibited splendid judgment and determination in all his other concerns, yet was flat on his back nevertheless.

Let him tell you about it: “I was much impressed with what you fellows said about alcoholism, and I frankly did not believe it would be possible for me to drink again. I rather appreciated your ideas about the subtle insanity which precedes the first drink, but I was confident it could not happen to me after what I had learned. I reasoned I was not so far advanced as most of you fellows, that I had been usually successful in licking my other personal problems, and that I would therefore be successful where you men failed. I felt I had every right to be self-confident, that it would be only a matter of exercising my will power and keeping on guard.

“In this frame of mind, I went about my business and for a time all was well. I had no trouble refusing drinks, and began to wonder if I had not been making too hard work of a simple matter. One day I went to Washington to present some accounting evidence to a government bureau. I had been out of town before during this particular dry spell, so there was nothing new about that. Physically, I felt fine. Neither did I have any pressing problems or worries. My business came off well, I was pleased and knew my partners would be too. It was the end of a perfect day, not a cloud on the horizon.

“I went to my hotel and leisurely dressed for dinner. As I crossed the threshold of the dinning room, the thought came to mind that it would be nice to have a couple of cocktails with dinner. That was all. Nothing more. I ordered a cocktail and my meal. Then I ordered another cocktail. After dinner I decided to take a walk. When I returned to the hotel it struck me a highball would be fine before going to bed, so I stepped into the bar and had one. I remember having several more that night and plenty next morning. I have a shadowy recollection of being in a airplane bound for New York, and of finding a friendly taxicab driver at the landing field instead of my wife. The driver escorted me for several days. I know little of where I went or what I said and did. Then came the hospital with the unbearable mental and physical suffering.

“As soon as I regained my ability to think, I went carefully over that evening in Washington. Not only had I been off guard, I had made no fight whatever against the first drink. This time I had not thought of the consequences at all. I had commenced to drink as carelessly as thought the cocktails were ginger ale. I now remembered what my alcoholic friends had told me, how they prophesied that if I had an alcoholic mind, the time and place would come—I would drink again. They had said that though I did raise a defense, it would one day give way before some trivial reason for having a drink. Well, just that did happen and more, for what I had learned of alcoholism did not occur to me at all. I knew from that moment that I had an alcoholic mind. I saw that will power and self-knowledge would not help in those strange mental blank spots. I had never been able to understand people who said that a problem had them hopelessly defeated. I knew then. It was the crushing blow."


Big Book quotes from the 1st edition
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Old 09-17-2012, 05:58 PM
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Originally Posted by awuh1 View Post
IMO AAs need to make sure they get the idea across, to newcomers, that they have has some power, but not enough to do it alone.
I used to wonder how much power the first step implied I had - powerless, as in less power, or no power at all? In Bill's story when talking about Ebby's visit to him, Bill talks about how much power he had with regard to this illness:

"But my friend sat before me, and he made the point blank declaration that God had done for him what he could not do for himself. His human will had failed. Doctors had pronounced him incurable. Society was about to lock him up. Like myself, he had admitted complete defeat. Then he had, in effect, been raised from the dead, suddenly taken from the scrap heap to a level of life better than the best he had ever known!

Had this power originated in him? Obviously it had not. There had been no more power in him than there was in me at that minute; and this was none at all."
Today I believe of myself I am nothing.
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Old 09-17-2012, 05:59 PM
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I didn't mention self-knowledge, it is another kind of information I was referring to. It is obvious to me too, that knowledge of self is not enough. Something new is needed if old patterns of behavior are to be stopped and new patterns of behavior are to be made.

I am speaking to Awuh1's point that we are all powerless, that power is needed. I compared power to knowledge, not knowledge of self, but other kinds of knowledge, and suggested that some need more power, others need more knowledge, and the suitability of either direction depends on the individual's locus of control - internal needs more information, external needs more power, and both necessarily come from outside the individual.
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Old 09-17-2012, 06:04 PM
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Originally Posted by KnowHope View Post
When I was working in the field, I read through all of the information provided on the RR website and watched videos with Jack Trimpey as well. It boggled my mind. It looks to me that Trimpey has a load of experience through middle-of-the-road-AA, and based on some huge misconceptions and misunderstandings, like much of those that come through our rooms, he has no idea what the program of AA actually is.
That's a great post. This is an interesting read on RR.

Rational Recovery

Powerlessness....Lack of power....That was my problem....The steps were the solution to the problem. Simple.
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Old 09-17-2012, 06:28 PM
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Originally Posted by freshstart57 View Post
I didn't mention self-knowledge, it is another kind of information I was referring to. It is obvious to me too, that knowledge of self is not enough. Something new is needed if old patterns of behavior are to be stopped and new patterns of behavior are to be made.

I am speaking to Awuh1's point that we are all powerless, that power is needed. I compared power to knowledge, not knowledge of self, but other kinds of knowledge, and suggested that some need more power, others need more knowledge, and the suitability of either direction depends on the individual's locus of control - internal needs more information, external needs more power, and both necessarily come from outside the individual.
What kinds of knowledge?

I'm lost.

I think a great many problems that I had that led to drinking and sustained it was being too immature to realize that I'm powerless over many things in life. I reacted with anger at that reality.
Drinking eased the tension.

Growing up helps.
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Old 09-18-2012, 06:05 AM
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I'll venture a guess that it's not so much the concept of "powerlessness" that's troubling, it's the idea that some sort of outside force (God, Higher Power) provides the power to recover. That's certainly how it was for me. I understand that I don't have control over many things, and I believe in God, but the idea that my sobriety was contingent on being "spiritually fit"...nope.

I don't view my sobriety as contingent on anything.
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Old 09-18-2012, 07:32 AM
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Interesting thread.

Powerlessness for me is over the drug alcohol itself ie the drinking and the being drunk with alcohol. This is not a difficult thing to understand in itself. Given enough alcohol, every person eventually becomes powerless against getting drunk on alcohol. No exceptions. Alcohol beats everyone when done in excess. Full stop.

I'm a recovered chronic alcoholic drug addict. My alcoholism illness is as defined by AA. My solution is a spiritual sober life, as promised with living the AA program in all my affairs. I also make use of gestalt therapy, and AVRT, to furthur enhance my personal enjoyment of my sans-alcohol life.

To be clear:

I chose too agree with AA. I could have got sober by other means too. I simply didn't make those choices. AA is not, and never will be, the only way, or even the best way, for everbody. AA is actually a very "written in stone" approach to sobriety. No problemo for those who want that sureness of purpose.

There is much in this thread that I see as posters sharing their own first hand experiences. Cool. As well though, I also see some posters trying to explain what powerlessness should mean, rather than just what it means to themselves respectively.

I've been sober a long time now, and I've seen more people fail in keeping sober than I have seen become successful in sobriety, and that is just a simple fact. Complications arise for many drinkers not just because of alcohol/alcoholism, but also because of self-created delusions that powerlessness is such a personal thing, when in fact, there is nothing personal about being powerless against alcohol... everyone, universally, is powerless against the drug alcohol when the bar being measured is alcohol's ability to get the drinker drunk.

I've posted about powerlessness before, and there are so many different ways to talk about it, its the topic that just keeps on giving, lol.
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Old 09-18-2012, 07:37 AM
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Originally Posted by onlythetruth View Post
I don't view my sobriety as contingent on anything.
Neither do I.
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Old 09-18-2012, 04:39 PM
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Originally Posted by onlythetruth View Post
I'll venture a guess that it's not so much the concept of "powerlessness" that's troubling, it's the idea that some sort of outside force (God, Higher Power) provides the power to recover. That's certainly how it was for me. I understand that I don't have control over many things, and I believe in God, but the idea that my sobriety was contingent on being "spiritually fit"...nope.
Finding that this Power is within instead of something universally separate changed the journey. Is God everything or is He nothing?

For what it's worth, AA also suggests that Power is found within.

As it says in "We Agnostics": "We finally saw that faith in some kind of God was a part of our make-up, just as much as the feeling we have for a friend. Sometimes we had to search fearlessly, but He was there. He was as much a fact as we were. We found the Great Reality deep down within us. In the last analysis it is only there that He may be found. It was so with us."


BB quotes from the 1st edition
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Old 09-18-2012, 04:40 PM
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Originally Posted by onlythetruth View Post
I don't view my sobriety as contingent on anything.
I thought about this several times but I don't think I understand?
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