Ok Ok. Powerlessness
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Meditation
Posts: 1,300
Ok Ok. Powerlessness
I've given AA a shot a few times though I must admit halfheartedly.
Got to the point that I have read the Big Book 10 plus times, and can recite many of the AA slogans etc. Never been through the steps though.
I've read RR too, and a bunch of threads and arguments for and against AA.
Here's what Im wondering tonight.
Why is it that people have such an issue with the idea of being powerless over something? I mean I've noticed that people really rebel against that idea with all of their might!
On the contrary the idea of powerlessness has never even been something that bothered me in the least. I believe I am powerless over pretty much everything that exists! Always have. I ask myself in the grand scheme of things, what do I really have power over? Almost nothing. Is it just me?
Maybe I am just not understanding the idea of powerlessness when it comes to step 1 and everybody knows something I don't?
I would love to hear from people as far as what powerless means to you.
So far my understanding of powerlessness in regards to alcohol/drugs is that left to my own devices I am going to eventually drink/drug again unless I have some outside assistance...
Got to the point that I have read the Big Book 10 plus times, and can recite many of the AA slogans etc. Never been through the steps though.
I've read RR too, and a bunch of threads and arguments for and against AA.
Here's what Im wondering tonight.
Why is it that people have such an issue with the idea of being powerless over something? I mean I've noticed that people really rebel against that idea with all of their might!
On the contrary the idea of powerlessness has never even been something that bothered me in the least. I believe I am powerless over pretty much everything that exists! Always have. I ask myself in the grand scheme of things, what do I really have power over? Almost nothing. Is it just me?
Maybe I am just not understanding the idea of powerlessness when it comes to step 1 and everybody knows something I don't?
I would love to hear from people as far as what powerless means to you.
So far my understanding of powerlessness in regards to alcohol/drugs is that left to my own devices I am going to eventually drink/drug again unless I have some outside assistance...
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Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Canada. About as far south as you can get
Posts: 4,768
Alcoholics Anonymous - How it works
RARELY HAVE we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path. Those who do not recover are people who cannot or will not completely give themselves to this simple program, usually men and women who are constitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves. There are such unfortunates. They are not at fault; they seem to have been born that way. They are naturally incapable of grasping and developing a manner of living which demands rigorous honesty. Their chances are less than average. There are those, too, who suffer from grave emotional and mental disorders, but many of them do recover if they have the capacity to be honest.
Our stories disclose in a general way what we used to be like, what happened, and what we are like now. If you have decided that you want what we have and are willing to go to any length to get it - then you are ready to take certain steps.
At some of these we balked. We thought that we could find an easier, softer way. But we could not. With all earnestness at our command, we beg of you to be fearless and thorough from the very start. Some of us have tried to hold on to our old ideas and the result was nil until we let go absolutely.
Remember that we deal with alcohol - cunning, baffling, powerful! Without help it is too much for us. But there is One who has all power - that One is God. May you find him now.
Half measures availed us nothing. We stood at the turning point. We asked His protection and care with complete abandon.
Here are the steps we took, which are suggested as a program of recovery:
1. We admitted we were powerless over alcohol - that our lives had become unmanageable.
2. Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.
3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.
4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.
5. Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.
6. Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.
7. Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.
8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all.
9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.
10. Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it.
11. Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out.
12. Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics, and to practice these principles in all our affairs.
Many of us exclaimed, "What an order! I can't go through with it." Do not be discouraged. No one among us has been able to maintain anything like perfect adherence to these principles. We are not saints. The point is, that we were willing to grow along spiritual lines. The principles we have set down are guides to progress. We claim spiritual progress rather than spiritual perfection.
Our description of the alcoholic, the chapter to the agnostic, and our personal adventures before and after make clear three pertinent ideas:
(a) That we were alcoholic and could not manage our own lives.
(b) That probably no human power could have relieved our alcoholism.
(c) That God could and would if He were sought.
How it works - Chapter 5, page 58-60 of the Book,
Alcoholics Anonymous
© Alcoholics Anonymous
RARELY HAVE we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path. Those who do not recover are people who cannot or will not completely give themselves to this simple program, usually men and women who are constitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves. There are such unfortunates. They are not at fault; they seem to have been born that way. They are naturally incapable of grasping and developing a manner of living which demands rigorous honesty. Their chances are less than average. There are those, too, who suffer from grave emotional and mental disorders, but many of them do recover if they have the capacity to be honest.
Our stories disclose in a general way what we used to be like, what happened, and what we are like now. If you have decided that you want what we have and are willing to go to any length to get it - then you are ready to take certain steps.
At some of these we balked. We thought that we could find an easier, softer way. But we could not. With all earnestness at our command, we beg of you to be fearless and thorough from the very start. Some of us have tried to hold on to our old ideas and the result was nil until we let go absolutely.
Remember that we deal with alcohol - cunning, baffling, powerful! Without help it is too much for us. But there is One who has all power - that One is God. May you find him now.
Half measures availed us nothing. We stood at the turning point. We asked His protection and care with complete abandon.
Here are the steps we took, which are suggested as a program of recovery:
1. We admitted we were powerless over alcohol - that our lives had become unmanageable.
2. Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.
3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.
4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.
5. Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.
6. Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.
7. Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.
8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all.
9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.
10. Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it.
11. Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out.
12. Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics, and to practice these principles in all our affairs.
Many of us exclaimed, "What an order! I can't go through with it." Do not be discouraged. No one among us has been able to maintain anything like perfect adherence to these principles. We are not saints. The point is, that we were willing to grow along spiritual lines. The principles we have set down are guides to progress. We claim spiritual progress rather than spiritual perfection.
Our description of the alcoholic, the chapter to the agnostic, and our personal adventures before and after make clear three pertinent ideas:
(a) That we were alcoholic and could not manage our own lives.
(b) That probably no human power could have relieved our alcoholism.
(c) That God could and would if He were sought.
How it works - Chapter 5, page 58-60 of the Book,
Alcoholics Anonymous
© Alcoholics Anonymous
Member
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Houston Texas
Posts: 1,003
We're powerless even over the desire to drink, even when we KNOW what will happen. And that is the big deal about powerlessness.
So.....stopping isn't hard. Staying stopped? That's why I need help, anyway.
So.....stopping isn't hard. Staying stopped? That's why I need help, anyway.
Member
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Dreaming Summer
Posts: 821
Originally Posted by Tommyh 
powerless over alcohol simply means to me that I will drink again
Hope that helps...
phoenix aka Tinker
Member
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,947
Nice post Fallow...
I am with you absolutely, I never had a problem with the powerless thing. I guess I knew what it felt like, to be powerless ... over the first drink (when I said I wouldn't drink), the next one (when I said I will only have one or two), when I would awake in the night, (sleeping restlessly and that pull of the bottle I had hidden...)
I can't speak for those who seem to completely reject the idea, yet they find themselves here, on a recovery site... Big eF'n deal, you know... If you can moderate, successfully and happily, then you are not powerless... If you can quit and not really miss it, and go on with your life, your not powerless.. I get it.
But that's the point, isn't it... Will power is not enough to keep alcoholics sober... That's the point, right?
I have also understood people who reject the idea that a Higher Power helped many get sober... Like it was some cop out, that we were weak, or something... Or that we didn't take responsibility. I don't know... You are preaching to the choir here, though, in the 12 step section.
I am with you absolutely, I never had a problem with the powerless thing. I guess I knew what it felt like, to be powerless ... over the first drink (when I said I wouldn't drink), the next one (when I said I will only have one or two), when I would awake in the night, (sleeping restlessly and that pull of the bottle I had hidden...)
I can't speak for those who seem to completely reject the idea, yet they find themselves here, on a recovery site... Big eF'n deal, you know... If you can moderate, successfully and happily, then you are not powerless... If you can quit and not really miss it, and go on with your life, your not powerless.. I get it.
But that's the point, isn't it... Will power is not enough to keep alcoholics sober... That's the point, right?
I have also understood people who reject the idea that a Higher Power helped many get sober... Like it was some cop out, that we were weak, or something... Or that we didn't take responsibility. I don't know... You are preaching to the choir here, though, in the 12 step section.
Sober Alcoholic
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 3,539
This is an excellent question. IMO powerless is often equated with helplessness. They are not the same thing and Bill would have done well to have made this a bit clearer. Powerlessness, as used in the text, (we are not donut holes) means “lacking sufficient power”. In other words, having some power but not enough to get the job done. Helplessness on the other hand generally means having no power at all. Anyway for the sake of discussion let’s use the words in this way.
People in AA (it would seem to me) need to admit that people entering the program or just learning about it are not helpless. After all they can choose to work the program and have a good chance of success. It’s their choice, they have some power (to choose to work the program), just not enough power to quit drinking by their own methods all by themselves.
Other programs need to acknowledge that the folks they help are powerless (in the sense of not having sufficient power). People who wish to use AVRT need to learn about AVRT (gain sufficient power) to do it, hence powerless (lacking sufficient power prior to learning and doing as per the distinction above).
This distinction is largely one of semantics yet there is more to it.
Many alcoholics self-medicate for depression. Others eventually develop depression largely due to drinking. Depressed alcoholics seeking help do not want to be told that they have no power at all. In fact if this is the way they interpret the word powerless, (as meaning hopeless) it can make them more depressed and turn them away from AA. (For more on depression and hopelessness see this Learned helplessness - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia).
IMO AAs need to make sure they get the idea across, to newcomers, that they have has some power, but not enough to do it alone. IMO complete and sincere open mindedness (to a program that has helped all these seemingly happy individuals) is all that’s needed to begin.
People in AA (it would seem to me) need to admit that people entering the program or just learning about it are not helpless. After all they can choose to work the program and have a good chance of success. It’s their choice, they have some power (to choose to work the program), just not enough power to quit drinking by their own methods all by themselves.
Other programs need to acknowledge that the folks they help are powerless (in the sense of not having sufficient power). People who wish to use AVRT need to learn about AVRT (gain sufficient power) to do it, hence powerless (lacking sufficient power prior to learning and doing as per the distinction above).
This distinction is largely one of semantics yet there is more to it.
Many alcoholics self-medicate for depression. Others eventually develop depression largely due to drinking. Depressed alcoholics seeking help do not want to be told that they have no power at all. In fact if this is the way they interpret the word powerless, (as meaning hopeless) it can make them more depressed and turn them away from AA. (For more on depression and hopelessness see this Learned helplessness - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia).
IMO AAs need to make sure they get the idea across, to newcomers, that they have has some power, but not enough to do it alone. IMO complete and sincere open mindedness (to a program that has helped all these seemingly happy individuals) is all that’s needed to begin.
Member
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 297
Originally Posted by Mark75
I You are preaching to the choir here, though, in the 12 step section.
But I have a major issue with pride. I did not want to admit that there was something in my life that I could not control. It wasn't until about a week ago that I realized if I don't admit that I am truly powerless over alcohol that I will never have those promises that I so desperately want.
So for me it all comes down to pride and my ego. I now can admit that I cannot do this myself. Do I like it? Nope. But at least I can admit it now and even say it aloud. It's a small step forward but a step nonetheless.
Today's Muse
Join Date: May 2007
Location: West end
Posts: 1,081
I think the term is absolutely misinterpreted. I am not powerless over anything other than alcohol. If I don't drink, I have no desire to drink. If I take that first drink, I lose all choice and I'm powerless over alcohol. I think that is where people get hung up. I am powerless after taking the first drink. Free from the booze, the choice is all mine. It is the mental obsession, the allergy, the whatever...I can't fight it once the booze has entered my blood stream.
I often wonder if people relate to being powerless as a lack of character, strength and their ego wanders in and gets insulted. I have no issue with being powerless. I lived it, experienced it for many, many years. I have no doubt that I fit the bill and I'm in full acceptance of that. Does that make me weak? Absolutely not. In fact, I'm much stronger for the acceptance followed by the transformation of going from drunkard to sober living. As most of us can attest to, not an easy task, but doable.
I often wonder if people relate to being powerless as a lack of character, strength and their ego wanders in and gets insulted. I have no issue with being powerless. I lived it, experienced it for many, many years. I have no doubt that I fit the bill and I'm in full acceptance of that. Does that make me weak? Absolutely not. In fact, I'm much stronger for the acceptance followed by the transformation of going from drunkard to sober living. As most of us can attest to, not an easy task, but doable.
Member
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,947
Hey ebshot... I meant more that people coming and posting here are interested in AA and doing the soul searching and work that the steps take.
My main character issue is pride as well, and it did expressive itself in those tough days of coming to grips with step one.
That is not a small step forward at all brother... It's the big one and the one that will start you on your path... awesome!!!
My main character issue is pride as well, and it did expressive itself in those tough days of coming to grips with step one.
That is not a small step forward at all brother... It's the big one and the one that will start you on your path... awesome!!!
Sober Alcoholic
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 3,539
I think some alcoholics have been able to overcome drinking by focusing on one aspect of alcoholism. Others need help with all three. IMO all three problems exist (to some extent) in all alcoholics. Alcoholism is a problem of body/mind/spirit. Some can detox (body) but go right back to drinking due to the thoughts/obsessions (mind). Some need to take it yet farther to a spiritual (spiritual to be defined by that individual) level. IMO it’s not the same for everyone.
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Join Date: May 2011
Location: Albany NY
Posts: 1,212
Originally Posted by LosingmyMisery
I often wonder if people relate to being powerless as a lack of character, strength and their ego wanders in and gets insulted.
Where one stands in relation to ego is the defining difference in what program will work for someone, IMO. I'm sure I'll upset some people when I say that.
We all say "I've got this monkey on my back and I want to shake it" when we enter SR, an AA or SMART meeting, or read up on AVRT. We search for the answer.
Generally, we all accept our lives have become unmanageable. That's easy.
It's when we come down to the nuts and bolts of who is in charge where all the mayhem breaks out here on SR.
I've seen AA referred to as a "program of disempowerment" and the concept of higher power skewered, diatribes of the history of AA proving that it is or isn't "religious", that elements of "confession" are contained within it's steps, and how delusional people can be that God is going to save ya (snicker snicker - blah blah blah.)
It is such a simple program. I followed it in its most basic form. Here's how it worked for ME: I cannot control my drinking, my life is unmanageable because of it, I believe it doesn't have to be that way, I look to others for help and to guide me, I look at myself to see what part I play in my daily dealings, I vow to stop harmful behaviors and replace them with something better, I make amends to those I've harmed, I keep my side of the street clean every day, when I harm others, I immediately apologize. I live consciously, and I bring a message of hope to other alcoholics.
Belief in a diety is optional.
As a result of these steps, I lead a powerful life, with purpose, and it brings its own rewards.
Simple, yes; but ego doesn't make it an easy route to go.
~sb
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: MD
Posts: 15,967
As said by others, I drink when I don't want to drink and once I do drink one, all bets are off and I will not stop drinking. That is powerlessness for me.
I don't drink today and I am not powerless today. I have a design for living.
I had a much harder time saying "I'm an alcoholic" and really accepting it.
I don't drink today and I am not powerless today. I have a design for living.
I had a much harder time saying "I'm an alcoholic" and really accepting it.
Member
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Cleveland, OH
Posts: 1,191
Left on my own I am absolutely powerless. But the process of the steps has allowed a new power to flow in. THe Big Book mentions Lack of power once and powerlessness once. Seveal times it talks about tapping into new power, feeling new power flow in, finding power etc. I am no longer powerless. I am Higher Powered as the bumper stickers say. I have power and my life is manageable. I just need to remember the source of that power and that He, not I, is managing.
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Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Bethlehem, PA.
Posts: 1,781
I think one always has to be careful not to let "Powerlessness" translate into victimhood. The victim stance is a powerful one. The victim is always morally right, neither responsible nor accountable and forever entitled to sympathy. A real sense of hopelessness and helplessness can take full control if one carries that too far.
We are all victims of circumstance when we're born into this world. We don't get to pick our parents, their social status, whether they're morally sound people or full-blown whack-a-loons. We don't get to pick and choose our physical and mental health issues, face it there is a lot in this world that we are powerless over.
To ignore the reality that we're not all dealt the same hand of cards at the poker table of life is to be naive. The thing is tho that doesn't mean we can't play the hand we were dealt to the best of our ability. So yes we are powerless over many things, with drinking and all addictions we are only powerless to the extent we choose to do nothing about them. I think the AA definition of "powerlessness" is meant to engender hope not victimhood so I guess it's all in how you look at it.
We are all victims of circumstance when we're born into this world. We don't get to pick our parents, their social status, whether they're morally sound people or full-blown whack-a-loons. We don't get to pick and choose our physical and mental health issues, face it there is a lot in this world that we are powerless over.
To ignore the reality that we're not all dealt the same hand of cards at the poker table of life is to be naive. The thing is tho that doesn't mean we can't play the hand we were dealt to the best of our ability. So yes we are powerless over many things, with drinking and all addictions we are only powerless to the extent we choose to do nothing about them. I think the AA definition of "powerlessness" is meant to engender hope not victimhood so I guess it's all in how you look at it.
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Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: northern michigan. not the U.P.
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once i have had a drink, i am powerless over stopping. that is because i am an alcoholic as described in the BB.
it is not only alcohol i am poweless over. if i drink a gallon of water, sooner or later iam going to pee. because i am powerless.
if someone feels alcohol is the only thing they are powerless over, try changing the weather.
it is not only alcohol i am poweless over. if i drink a gallon of water, sooner or later iam going to pee. because i am powerless.
if someone feels alcohol is the only thing they are powerless over, try changing the weather.
Forward we go...side by side-Rest In Peace
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Serene In Dixie
Posts: 36,740
I am powerless over many things...and by useing the AA Steps
I've found a way to move on and get on with the
business of daily living with purpose and joy...
If AA is something you are interested in...please do the Steps
as that is the base of the program.
I've found a way to move on and get on with the
business of daily living with purpose and joy...
If AA is something you are interested in...please do the Steps
as that is the base of the program.
Member
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: New England
Posts: 259
I just had to share what I read. I haven't read this whole thread, but I had skimmed it earlier and I just something directly related, I do believe.
I'm reading 'Under the Influence' by Milam & Ketcham (highly recommend). Anyway, pg 42 states, "...the alcoholic is POWERLESS to control his REACTION to alcohol."
This book is about the physiological causes of alcoholism and how true alcoholics are physiologically different from (and therefore respond entirely different than) non-alcoholics.
Fascinating read...
I'm reading 'Under the Influence' by Milam & Ketcham (highly recommend). Anyway, pg 42 states, "...the alcoholic is POWERLESS to control his REACTION to alcohol."
This book is about the physiological causes of alcoholism and how true alcoholics are physiologically different from (and therefore respond entirely different than) non-alcoholics.
Fascinating read...
Recoveringed
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Thump
Posts: 409
Originally Posted by Fallow
I've given AA a shot a few times though I must admit halfheartedly.
Got to the point that I have read the Big Book 10 plus times, and can recite many of the AA slogans etc. Never been through the steps though.
Got to the point that I have read the Big Book 10 plus times, and can recite many of the AA slogans etc. Never been through the steps though.
Recoveringed
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Thump
Posts: 409
Originally Posted by Fallow
Why is it that people have such an issue with the idea of being powerless over something? I mean I've noticed that people really rebel against that idea with all of their might!
As for the rest, it's usually ego.
We've got an illness that wants us dead but will settle for us drunk. As it rests mainly in the mind it is capable of very cunning, baffling and powerful delusion. As Clancy calls it, a disease of perception.
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