Frustrations with AA
Member
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Eastern, PA
Posts: 112
Originally Posted by miamifella 
There is often a dogmatism in 12-step meetings that is counterproductive for many people. Saying that anything that is not strictly within the party lines is "denial" is an example of that.
It may be that you just have to withstand the disapproval of people in the group and your friend. (You are not there to gain their approval--you are there to get better.)
Or you may want to look for other AA meetings to attend. Also, you could try NA. A different meeting or 12-step program might have a different attitude. There is great variation within meetings, so you can shop around for the one that works best for you.
Also, I would recommend supplementing your 12-step recovery with individual therapy. Some one-on-one work can help tremendously in early recovery.
It may be that you just have to withstand the disapproval of people in the group and your friend. (You are not there to gain their approval--you are there to get better.)
Or you may want to look for other AA meetings to attend. Also, you could try NA. A different meeting or 12-step program might have a different attitude. There is great variation within meetings, so you can shop around for the one that works best for you.
Also, I would recommend supplementing your 12-step recovery with individual therapy. Some one-on-one work can help tremendously in early recovery.
Member
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Eastern, PA
Posts: 112
Hi LoremIpsum,
I've struggled with this myself quite a bit. As have others that i know. And I feel that it really is a big deal. As these folks can be tremendously helpful. But, arguably, they have the potential to be hurtful, imo.
I'm going to tell you what i've told others on this board.
"If you liked everyone that you met in AA
then you haven't been to too many meetings."
-- my AA sponsor
Finding a good meeting can be tough.
I very much appreciate your comments. And i'll add that one AA member merely having a good amount of sober time doesn't necessarily mean them to be more insightful, tactful, mature, intelligent or supportive.
I'm kind of unusual in that i prefer an NA meeting to most any of the AA meetings. But that's just my personal experience and has a lot to do with my location. I found the folks in NA meetings (including the AA members who were present) to be much more supportive. Much more helpful.
I do NOT want to bash AA. But i will say that it's a huge organization and thus has it's share of bad apples.
Early on I met up with some AA members whom i found simply to be snobby -- even snobby towards other AA members.
"I am not impressed with his sobriety," one kid said.
One individual advised me NOT to go to a particular meeting, "There's not a lot of sobriety there."
What the heck?
Wasn't the meeting worth something? Was it NOT valuable that i found some folks, some commraderie, some folks who were interested in staying sober for one evening?
"You have a disease! a disease! You're a 40 year old [professional} driving that [referring to my beat up car]" -- this was from a 26 year old, somewhat of an AA "organizer," a speaker, driving a Lexus which i'm 99.9% was paid for by mom
I did outpatient rehab for a while. And at those outpatient meetings many folks stated that they were turned off by AA. So I whole heartedly recommended the local NA group to all of them. Several people went to the NA meeting and no one complained. And several stated that they liked the meeting. But perhaps more importantly no one felt threatened or uncomfortable (not to my knowledge).
Again, this is largely based on personal experience AND location. There is one AA clubhouse that left a wonderful impression on me and i would go there more often if i lived closer.
Conversely, several told me that NA meetings in another part of town are largely a joke and most often not worth the time. And i have no reason to doubt this.
There was a "mens only" AA meeting that myself and others preferred. I believe that we simply felt more free and more comfortable NOT needing to worry about being disrespectful with whatever foul mouthed talk might occur in front of women.
And if you do find someone whom you get on with then GET THEIR PHONE NUMBER. This was my one regret. I really didn't do that often enough. I feel that my weakness for alcohol and the surrounding issues are very personal things. Much better for me to comiserate and share with someone whom I felt was trustworthy.
good luck to you,
Tacks
Moderators: If this longwinded post of mine is more suited for my blog then please accept my apologies and move it for me. thanks
Originally Posted by LoremIpsum
Frustrations with AA.
I'm going to tell you what i've told others on this board.
"If you liked everyone that you met in AA
then you haven't been to too many meetings."
-- my AA sponsor
Finding a good meeting can be tough.
Originally Posted by LoremIpsum
I find it hard that every statement that doesn't toe the party line seems to get labelled as denial. It's not that I disagree – I almost certainly in denial about a huge array of things I currently consider certainties, and I want to address them. But the labelling seems to be axiomatic rather than based on what I actually say. The groups I've been to seem very judgmental sometimes – it's AA or the highway.
I'm kind of unusual in that i prefer an NA meeting to most any of the AA meetings. But that's just my personal experience and has a lot to do with my location. I found the folks in NA meetings (including the AA members who were present) to be much more supportive. Much more helpful.
I do NOT want to bash AA. But i will say that it's a huge organization and thus has it's share of bad apples.
Early on I met up with some AA members whom i found simply to be snobby -- even snobby towards other AA members.
"I am not impressed with his sobriety," one kid said.
One individual advised me NOT to go to a particular meeting, "There's not a lot of sobriety there."
What the heck?
Wasn't the meeting worth something? Was it NOT valuable that i found some folks, some commraderie, some folks who were interested in staying sober for one evening?
"You have a disease! a disease! You're a 40 year old [professional} driving that [referring to my beat up car]" -- this was from a 26 year old, somewhat of an AA "organizer," a speaker, driving a Lexus which i'm 99.9% was paid for by mom
I did outpatient rehab for a while. And at those outpatient meetings many folks stated that they were turned off by AA. So I whole heartedly recommended the local NA group to all of them. Several people went to the NA meeting and no one complained. And several stated that they liked the meeting. But perhaps more importantly no one felt threatened or uncomfortable (not to my knowledge).
Again, this is largely based on personal experience AND location. There is one AA clubhouse that left a wonderful impression on me and i would go there more often if i lived closer.
Conversely, several told me that NA meetings in another part of town are largely a joke and most often not worth the time. And i have no reason to doubt this.
There was a "mens only" AA meeting that myself and others preferred. I believe that we simply felt more free and more comfortable NOT needing to worry about being disrespectful with whatever foul mouthed talk might occur in front of women.
And if you do find someone whom you get on with then GET THEIR PHONE NUMBER. This was my one regret. I really didn't do that often enough. I feel that my weakness for alcohol and the surrounding issues are very personal things. Much better for me to comiserate and share with someone whom I felt was trustworthy.
good luck to you,
Tacks
Moderators: If this longwinded post of mine is more suited for my blog then please accept my apologies and move it for me. thanks
Member
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Baton Rouge, La.
Posts: 15,240
I learned that if I went to any lengths to
drink, to go out to a local watering hole
as they call it, in the pouring rain, driving
thru flooded streets that could have stalled
my car, putting not only myself in danger
as well as others by my wreckless driving,
even when I ran off the road at 2 in the morning
drunk hitting a concrete culvert sitting on top
the ground sending me to the hospital for 10
days with a punctured spleen to be removed
so i wouldnt bleed to death.....
THEN, if i wanted to stay sober more than i
wanted to drink, then I did whatever I needed
to do to stay sober.
Even when I was shy or had little ones at home,
I went to many many meetings bringing them
with me, or leaving them with family. I sat in
those rooms and listened and absorbed all that
I could possibly comprehend till it began to sink
in.
Because I was terrified of speaking, I found a way
to ease my comfort by following what my sponsor
did a many a times. Baking. I made countless goodies
from scratch and placed them on pretty platters to
bring to the many many meetings I went to, sometimes
twice a day, suiting up and showing up which allowed
others to see that I was staying sober no matter what.
They appreciated the service work I did and when they
didnt see me, they asked where I was and of course
my sweets.
This kept me motivated to go so I could
listen to the messages of hope that would help me stay
sober in the mist of my ups and downs in life.
I often heard that those that returned to drinking was
those who quit going to meetings, quit working and
incorperating the tools and knowledge of recovery in
their everyday life. For that, I didnt want to drink and
continued to do whatever I could to the best of my ability
to stay sober.
Today, some 20 something yrs of many one days at a
time later, I am still doing whatever I need to do to remain
sober, happy and honest in all my affairs.
Whatever you need to do to stay sober, do it to the
best of your ability. The rewards of the promises will
follow and come true.
drink, to go out to a local watering hole
as they call it, in the pouring rain, driving
thru flooded streets that could have stalled
my car, putting not only myself in danger
as well as others by my wreckless driving,
even when I ran off the road at 2 in the morning
drunk hitting a concrete culvert sitting on top
the ground sending me to the hospital for 10
days with a punctured spleen to be removed
so i wouldnt bleed to death.....
THEN, if i wanted to stay sober more than i
wanted to drink, then I did whatever I needed
to do to stay sober.
Even when I was shy or had little ones at home,
I went to many many meetings bringing them
with me, or leaving them with family. I sat in
those rooms and listened and absorbed all that
I could possibly comprehend till it began to sink
in.
Because I was terrified of speaking, I found a way
to ease my comfort by following what my sponsor
did a many a times. Baking. I made countless goodies
from scratch and placed them on pretty platters to
bring to the many many meetings I went to, sometimes
twice a day, suiting up and showing up which allowed
others to see that I was staying sober no matter what.
They appreciated the service work I did and when they
didnt see me, they asked where I was and of course
my sweets.
This kept me motivated to go so I couldlisten to the messages of hope that would help me stay
sober in the mist of my ups and downs in life.
I often heard that those that returned to drinking was
those who quit going to meetings, quit working and
incorperating the tools and knowledge of recovery in
their everyday life. For that, I didnt want to drink and
continued to do whatever I could to the best of my ability
to stay sober.
Today, some 20 something yrs of many one days at a
time later, I am still doing whatever I need to do to remain
sober, happy and honest in all my affairs.
Whatever you need to do to stay sober, do it to the
best of your ability. The rewards of the promises will
follow and come true.
Your attitude, not your aptitude, will determine your altitude
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Oxnard (The Nard), CA, USA.
Posts: 13,966
Knowledge Is Empowering
Greetings LoremIpsumI am an "implicit atheist" member of AA that finds working the program from an agnostic/atheist perspective has been most beneficial. I don't share my atheistic opinion of AA in meetings no more than I would expect a Christian (I'm X-Christian BWT) AA member to go on about Christ in an AA meeting. Some AA members know me in a personal manner and totally accept my atheism because I have explained my lack of belief in a nonthreatening way. I do however come across a few knuckle heads in AA that object to my lack of beliefs as somehow an attack on their beliefs. I've learned to smile a lot and nod my head in those times.
Options, there plenty. I have found having some guidance from other atheist in AA a very valuable asset. Below are links to some great sites that have suggestions for the atheist in AA.
AA Toronto Agnostics
AA Agnostics of the San Franscisco Bay Area
Agnostic AA 12 Steps
AA Agnostic London South & Home Counties
"For the new agnostic or atheist just coming in, I will try to give very briefly my milestones in recovery.
1. The first power I found greater than myself was John Barleycorn.
2. The A.A. Fellowship became my Higher Power for the first two years.
3. Gradually, I came to believe that God and Good were synonymous and were found in all of us.
4. And I found that by meditating and trying to tune in on my better self for guidance and answers, I became more comfortable and steady."
~J.B., San Diego, California.
Latter in life Bill W, the prime architect of AA's 12-step program wrote:1. The first power I found greater than myself was John Barleycorn.
2. The A.A. Fellowship became my Higher Power for the first two years.
3. Gradually, I came to believe that God and Good were synonymous and were found in all of us.
4. And I found that by meditating and trying to tune in on my better self for guidance and answers, I became more comfortable and steady."
~J.B., San Diego, California.
In AA's first years I all but ruined the whole undertaking with this sort of unconscious arrogance. God as I understood Him had to be for everybody. Sometimes my aggression was subtle and sometimes it was crude. But either way it was damaging - perhaps fatally so - to numbers of non-believers. Of course this sort of thing isn't confined to Twelfth Step work. It is very apt to leak out into our relationships with everybody. Even now, I catch myself chanting that same old barrier-building refrain, "Do as I do, believe as I do - or else!"
The Dilemma of No Faith, By Bill Wilson, AA Grapevine, April 1961
The Dilemma of No Faith, By Bill Wilson, AA Grapevine, April 1961
As for including wholesome practices aside from AA, I'm all about that. Women for Sobriety, SOS, LifeRing,
SMART, CBT, DBT and AVRT all offer something that help me stay headed in a healthy direction.
There it is, all for your consideration Lorem. I hope I was helpful.
Member
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Texas
Posts: 248
I am not a fan of the dogmatism that is part of AA. in fact, I recently fired my therapist because he told me that if I didn't do 90/90 and kick my BF out (he drinks) then I will end up in prison. I found this over dramatic and ridiculous - I was a functional who binged 2 times a week or so.
I go when I can or when I feel like it. Like others said, I work the steps on my own. Ii tried sponsors but I am by nature a solitary person and I found the help intrusive. It just wasn't for me.
Lots of people go to meetings when they want to, or not at all. My father has now been sober for 30 years and he has only attended maybe 20 meetings the entire time. AA is not a one-size-fits-all solution. As long as you are working some sort of program and it works for you, you should be ok.
I go when I can or when I feel like it. Like others said, I work the steps on my own. Ii tried sponsors but I am by nature a solitary person and I found the help intrusive. It just wasn't for me.
Lots of people go to meetings when they want to, or not at all. My father has now been sober for 30 years and he has only attended maybe 20 meetings the entire time. AA is not a one-size-fits-all solution. As long as you are working some sort of program and it works for you, you should be ok.
Member
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 119
LoremIpsum,
When I joined SR a year ago and told everyone how much I was drinking and for how long, they said I must join AA and do "90 in 90" or else I'm in deep trouble. Well, lucky for me, I didn't come to SR for advice on what program to use. Because I had already decided on Rational Recovery (RR). I came here just to talk to people like me (alcoholics just understand each other better). And to remind myself that there are people sober since 1988 and still loving it. And to remind myself that there are people sober since ten minutes ago who hate life and are suicidal. You see a lot of both here.
I am over a year sober today by Rational Recovery techniques. Nobody has a monopoly on sobriety. Not even God.
When I joined SR a year ago and told everyone how much I was drinking and for how long, they said I must join AA and do "90 in 90" or else I'm in deep trouble. Well, lucky for me, I didn't come to SR for advice on what program to use. Because I had already decided on Rational Recovery (RR). I came here just to talk to people like me (alcoholics just understand each other better). And to remind myself that there are people sober since 1988 and still loving it. And to remind myself that there are people sober since ten minutes ago who hate life and are suicidal. You see a lot of both here.
I am over a year sober today by Rational Recovery techniques. Nobody has a monopoly on sobriety. Not even God.
Member
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 464
Loremipsum- Thanks for your post. As an AA member I really do value the unfiltered non-koolaid drinking view of prospective members such as yourself. What you described, if accurate is not what the AA program is. Unfortunately, often times the fellowship barely resembles that:
AA committed to you first- I have watched well meaning AA members drive folks like you off. We insult your intelligence by saying things like:
No one gets to AA by mistake ( pure hogwash) AA is not for everyone. What we are supposed to do is simply tell you our story, both in addiction and in recovery. If you want what we have....
And it seems like you heard that as well:
We are not professionals, there is no leader, so a meeting might not be perfect. If you connected with the good stuff I hope the negative will not run you off.
A few questions for you to consider
Would you like to help others?
Can you see that your darkest moment in your own addiction may actually be the one thing that helps another get sober?
Can you find anything wrong with practicing the 12 steps?
I guess I felt a bit ambushed – from the first meeting the message seemed to be you've got to do 30/30 or 90/90 and work the steps or you'll die. I was committed to sobriety, but not yet committed to AA – but it felt like AA committed to me first.
No one gets to AA by mistake ( pure hogwash) AA is not for everyone. What we are supposed to do is simply tell you our story, both in addiction and in recovery. If you want what we have....
And it seems like you heard that as well:
But there were things about AA that immediately appealed. I love the idea that I can simply surrender in the face of my addiction – that I don't have to consider it a moral failing anymore. The people there are mostly lovely and when people share they are raw and honest. I relate to what others say.
A few questions for you to consider
Would you like to help others?
Can you see that your darkest moment in your own addiction may actually be the one thing that helps another get sober?
Can you find anything wrong with practicing the 12 steps?
Member
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 27
Well I quit drinking recently and find it easy so far but I want to have some support to fall back on and I know that AA isn't for me so reconnected with SMART Recovery since their tools have helped me a lot in the past to kick a nasty drug using habit. Also I always chose nice and liberal AA groups to go to when I still went, that helps too, I don't hate AA and think it can be very helpful for some.
Member
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Bellingham
Posts: 513
I've been going for three months. I have felt creeped out, annoyed, and used at times as a 'helpee', but I now treat difficult big book thumpers and other AA lords as part of the practice. Drunks like to preach. They think they have the answers. When they have an answer, they grow drunk on their own epiphany. I certainly do. But I think in going overboard we are trying to ever so slowly learn something.
Maybe AA is like the opposite of the work world. In the work world, we're used to thinking of hard workers as independent. In AA, the people who do the most work seem to be those in need of help the most. The glassy eyed 'cult' members, the 90 in 90 crowd, the slogan barkers, the poor listeners... One of those guys actually really made me feel bad: only time I ever felt like quitting AA was the time this poor guy needlessly administered his 'tough love' by informing me that I wasn't doing a good enough job. Last time we spoke, he immediately got on my case about counting days. Substantive interaction? No way! That's just how he is. But if I can't handle kooky recovering drunks trying to be helpful, then what can I handle?
One of the things that helped me was looking at my flaws honestly. I needed to look at them because I felt like dying and felt like that was the only way, and then I was like, holy cow. I'm living this sublime, ineffable experience. AA was a huge part of this, and I'm grateful.
Maybe AA is like the opposite of the work world. In the work world, we're used to thinking of hard workers as independent. In AA, the people who do the most work seem to be those in need of help the most. The glassy eyed 'cult' members, the 90 in 90 crowd, the slogan barkers, the poor listeners... One of those guys actually really made me feel bad: only time I ever felt like quitting AA was the time this poor guy needlessly administered his 'tough love' by informing me that I wasn't doing a good enough job. Last time we spoke, he immediately got on my case about counting days. Substantive interaction? No way! That's just how he is. But if I can't handle kooky recovering drunks trying to be helpful, then what can I handle?
One of the things that helped me was looking at my flaws honestly. I needed to look at them because I felt like dying and felt like that was the only way, and then I was like, holy cow. I'm living this sublime, ineffable experience. AA was a huge part of this, and I'm grateful.
Member
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Maricopa, AZ
Posts: 99
Good topic OP.
I'm not an AA fanatic either. I'm not working the steps or looking for a sponsor or earning chips. The group I meet with is at a rehab facility and the folks there feel better if they can get stuff off their chest and have others in the room listen. I'm happy to listen and somehow just being there keeps me sober. Kinship I guess.
I'm not an AA fanatic either. I'm not working the steps or looking for a sponsor or earning chips. The group I meet with is at a rehab facility and the folks there feel better if they can get stuff off their chest and have others in the room listen. I'm happy to listen and somehow just being there keeps me sober. Kinship I guess.
Member
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Texas
Posts: 248
Originally Posted by davaidavai
Drunks like to preach. They think they have the answers. When they have an answer, they grow drunk on their own epiphany. I certainly do. But I think in going overboard we are trying to ever so slowly learn something.
Thanks so much for saying what I have been thinking for years! 
Member
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 86
I go to AA. I really struggled with some of the issues you are struggling with. I got in with a very "hardcore" group. Their way or the highway, you will do this, do that, and if not you are going to die!! I don't work like that.
I found a much more relaxed group. We talk, we help each other. It is real group recovery, it is real help not just parroting slogans at each other. If all I hear from someone is "pray and read the big book", I can write the same thing on a post it note and look at it every day. I want to talk and connect and get real help and give help if I can.
Not all AA is crazy. Took me a little while to believe it but I was very grateful I found something that fit me.
I found a much more relaxed group. We talk, we help each other. It is real group recovery, it is real help not just parroting slogans at each other. If all I hear from someone is "pray and read the big book", I can write the same thing on a post it note and look at it every day. I want to talk and connect and get real help and give help if I can.
Not all AA is crazy. Took me a little while to believe it but I was very grateful I found something that fit me.
Grateful to be free
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Arizona
Posts: 3,680
After exposure to both AA and NA, I found NA a better fit. The language is more modern, and yes, it DOES help me to not have to "translate" or "apologize" etc.
Ultimately I have found a better fit still in another 12 step group that is built around philosophies and a mode of spirituality that I truly feel "fits" me.
I am apt to work more deeply in a program that I feel I can understand, accept and feel a part of. I am more motivated and I feel at home with my current program. I don't spend time fighting it, or forcing myself to swallow things that I simply can't understand.
There is nothing wrong with AA or NA, there is nothing wrong with me or my understanding of the Universe. There are enough recovery options and hope aplenty to recover in any manner than suits.
Many describe AA as the "last house on the block" for them, meaning they tried many other things and none of them worked, then came to AA and found recovery.
If that is true for some, it is also true for others that AA was one of the things they tried that didn't work, and they moved on, and another method of recovery is the last house on the block for THEM.
The 12 steps are not unique to AA other than the wording. They are basic tools for spiritual growth and a satisfying life that have been passed down through the ages.
The straightforward methodology is a blessing to many. But the big book is not the only way to get the message or live the principles.
My AA sponsor predicted doom for me unless I got on my knees and recited a specific prayer, in specific words that I could not honestly get behind.
I felt like I was being told to recite a magical spell.
Ultimately I have found a better fit still in another 12 step group that is built around philosophies and a mode of spirituality that I truly feel "fits" me.
I am apt to work more deeply in a program that I feel I can understand, accept and feel a part of. I am more motivated and I feel at home with my current program. I don't spend time fighting it, or forcing myself to swallow things that I simply can't understand.
There is nothing wrong with AA or NA, there is nothing wrong with me or my understanding of the Universe. There are enough recovery options and hope aplenty to recover in any manner than suits.
Many describe AA as the "last house on the block" for them, meaning they tried many other things and none of them worked, then came to AA and found recovery.
If that is true for some, it is also true for others that AA was one of the things they tried that didn't work, and they moved on, and another method of recovery is the last house on the block for THEM.
The 12 steps are not unique to AA other than the wording. They are basic tools for spiritual growth and a satisfying life that have been passed down through the ages.
The straightforward methodology is a blessing to many. But the big book is not the only way to get the message or live the principles.
My AA sponsor predicted doom for me unless I got on my knees and recited a specific prayer, in specific words that I could not honestly get behind.
I felt like I was being told to recite a magical spell.
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