One Size Fits All
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: St Joseph, MO
Posts: 6
One Size Fits All
HELP HELP...
Local Treatment Centers are combining Alcoholic and Drug Abusers into the SAME patient groups. They are telling the patients that the Cure is the same for Both.
Bill W in ..In "Problems other than Alcohol"..says differently..
If the Cure is the same Why was NA founded and is still up and running?
Is there medical studies that indicate that "one size fits all" ?
It is causing a lot of confusion when an Addict only, shows up at area AA meetings Especially when there are still some Old TImers at the meetings that were taught the principles of Sobriety from unpaid, hardnosed, tough love sponsors.
Thank you Thank you
"A FEW days (then some) in the program and still learning"
Local Treatment Centers are combining Alcoholic and Drug Abusers into the SAME patient groups. They are telling the patients that the Cure is the same for Both.
Bill W in ..In "Problems other than Alcohol"..says differently..
If the Cure is the same Why was NA founded and is still up and running?
Is there medical studies that indicate that "one size fits all" ?
It is causing a lot of confusion when an Addict only, shows up at area AA meetings Especially when there are still some Old TImers at the meetings that were taught the principles of Sobriety from unpaid, hardnosed, tough love sponsors.
Thank you Thank you
"A FEW days (then some) in the program and still learning"
Member
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Canada. About as far south as you can get
Posts: 4,768
When I was in the Recovery Home in 1989 there was 5 people in my group that didn't use at all, no booze/drugs but their thinking was exactly like mine. We had drunks, gamblers, sex addicts, drug users, convicts and killers.
This was not an AA facility but to answer your question, Yes, one size fit all. The priest that ran the Home called everyone an alcoholic. (If you didn't like being called that, you could get out. There was 10 waiting for your room).
I attend AA meetings as there are more of them in my area but I had become more dependent on Valium over alcohol, I just leave that out at the table or mention it in passing. AA is AA.
All the best.
Bob R
This was not an AA facility but to answer your question, Yes, one size fit all. The priest that ran the Home called everyone an alcoholic. (If you didn't like being called that, you could get out. There was 10 waiting for your room).
I attend AA meetings as there are more of them in my area but I had become more dependent on Valium over alcohol, I just leave that out at the table or mention it in passing. AA is AA.
All the best.
Bob R
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: St Joseph, MO
Posts: 6
I am a NewBie to this great website and
Thank you all for your replies..
However I still would like the answers to the following questions...Or direct me to the proper forum ..
1....If the Cure is the same Why was NA founded and is still up and running?
2...Is there medical studies that indicate that "one size fits all" ?
3....OOps forgot to include .."Bill W in ..In "Problems other than Alcohol"..says differently.."
Thank you again good people..
Thank you all for your replies..
However I still would like the answers to the following questions...Or direct me to the proper forum ..
1....If the Cure is the same Why was NA founded and is still up and running?
2...Is there medical studies that indicate that "one size fits all" ?
3....OOps forgot to include .."Bill W in ..In "Problems other than Alcohol"..says differently.."
Thank you again good people..
Laozi Old Man
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Detroit, MI
Posts: 6,665
Originally Posted by phxbrd 
Local Treatment Centers are combining Alcoholic and Drug Abusers into the SAME patient groups. They are telling the patients that the Cure is the same for Both.
High on Life
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Been to Hell and Back
Posts: 1,157
As far as I know, NA was founded because "old timers" would object whenever they mentioned the word drugs in a meeting. NA was founded on the same principles as AA, so they are virtually the same. Substitute Drugs for Alcohol and vice versa.
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: St Joseph, MO
Posts: 6
Hey Guys/Gals.. give me a break...I know all of the "generalities" etc, (in fact I invented some of the better 13th step ones.. )
Yes Yes Yes Both are drugs But I am looking for Specifics..
My questions are STILL is unanswered...IS the CURE (Treatment) for the drugs the same
And is there any publication that states that The Medical Profession has run tests.??
And is Bill W incorrect? Or did the phycology of humans and the chemistry of alcohol change since Bill's time and comments?
Please direct us to some forums that might be able to help us farm boys clear up the confusion.........Thanks for all of your prompt replies
Yes Yes Yes Both are drugs But I am looking for Specifics..
My questions are STILL is unanswered...IS the CURE (Treatment) for the drugs the same
And is there any publication that states that The Medical Profession has run tests.??
And is Bill W incorrect? Or did the phycology of humans and the chemistry of alcohol change since Bill's time and comments?
Please direct us to some forums that might be able to help us farm boys clear up the confusion.........Thanks for all of your prompt replies
Member
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: « USA » Recovered with AVRT (Rational Recovery) ___________
Posts: 3,680
Originally Posted by phxbrd
Please direct us to some forums that might be able to help us farm boys clear up the confusion.........Thanks for all of your prompt replies
Member
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Kansas
Posts: 3,937
Originally Posted by phxbrd
HELP HELP...
Local Treatment Centers are combining Alcoholic and Drug Abusers into the SAME patient groups. They are telling the patients that the Cure is the same for Both.
Bill W in ..In "Problems other than Alcohol"..says differently..
If the Cure is the same Why was NA founded and is still up and running?
Is there medical studies that indicate that "one size fits all" ?
It is causing a lot of confusion when an Addict only, shows up at area AA meetings Especially when there are still some Old TImers at the meetings that were taught the principles of Sobriety from unpaid, hardnosed, tough love sponsors.
Thank you Thank you
"A FEW days (then some) in the program and still learning"
Local Treatment Centers are combining Alcoholic and Drug Abusers into the SAME patient groups. They are telling the patients that the Cure is the same for Both.
Bill W in ..In "Problems other than Alcohol"..says differently..
If the Cure is the same Why was NA founded and is still up and running?
Is there medical studies that indicate that "one size fits all" ?
It is causing a lot of confusion when an Addict only, shows up at area AA meetings Especially when there are still some Old TImers at the meetings that were taught the principles of Sobriety from unpaid, hardnosed, tough love sponsors.
Thank you Thank you
"A FEW days (then some) in the program and still learning"
But to answer the question flatly, yes the path out is the same.
Have you run into Mike W up there in St.Joseph yet?
Sober Alcoholic
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 3,539
Dr. Bob was addicted to both alcohol and “goofballs” (barbiturates). He took one of these with his last beer on the original founders day. Never heard he ever had either after that day. Something worked. I presume it was the same program.
TheMostSordidSpotOnEarth
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: ParadiseOnEarth
Posts: 811
I am a real alcoholic, and I am also a recovered drug addict.
In me, it is the same, and in me the treatment is the same. Total abstinence and the 12 step program of recovery out of the Big Book. I sponsor alcoholics and addicts in the same way - through the 12 steps out of the Big Book. I do not suggest that non-alcoholics go to AA, unless they would like to go to open meetings to listen like the rest of the public is invited to do.
I have yet to see an alcoholic that doesn't practice total abstinence from all drugs, or who isn't living in such a manner where their alcoholism is coming out sideways (compulsive gambling, compulsive overeating, etc.) that has the kind of recovery I want or believe would keep me alive and happy.
"Problems Other Than Alcohol" refers to singleness of purpose, which I respect and support because it's part of what makes AA so effective - the best in the world for the treatment of alcoholism.
Yet I have heard it said by someone I greatly respect that "alcohol isn't a drug, it's a liquid!" Well, alcohol is a drug whether we like it or not; and it is indeed a liquid, but so is morphine, methadone, Xanax...
When I find others in the rooms of AA that turn their noses down at drug addicts, I find it's usually a pride issue and might warrant some inventory. As it's said, only an real alcoholic/real addict can look down at others from the gutter...
Some of the best AA circuit speakers I know are also addicts. Moreover, the use of drugs is referred to in several places in the Big Book, including Bill's Story, on p.22 and in Dr. Bob's Nightmare. We also have a wonderful and often quoted story in the back of the BB called "Acceptance Was The Answer;" originally titled, "Doctor, Alcoholic, Addict."
In me, it is the same, and in me the treatment is the same. Total abstinence and the 12 step program of recovery out of the Big Book. I sponsor alcoholics and addicts in the same way - through the 12 steps out of the Big Book. I do not suggest that non-alcoholics go to AA, unless they would like to go to open meetings to listen like the rest of the public is invited to do.
I have yet to see an alcoholic that doesn't practice total abstinence from all drugs, or who isn't living in such a manner where their alcoholism is coming out sideways (compulsive gambling, compulsive overeating, etc.) that has the kind of recovery I want or believe would keep me alive and happy.
"Problems Other Than Alcohol" refers to singleness of purpose, which I respect and support because it's part of what makes AA so effective - the best in the world for the treatment of alcoholism.
Yet I have heard it said by someone I greatly respect that "alcohol isn't a drug, it's a liquid!" Well, alcohol is a drug whether we like it or not; and it is indeed a liquid, but so is morphine, methadone, Xanax...
When I find others in the rooms of AA that turn their noses down at drug addicts, I find it's usually a pride issue and might warrant some inventory. As it's said, only an real alcoholic/real addict can look down at others from the gutter...
Some of the best AA circuit speakers I know are also addicts. Moreover, the use of drugs is referred to in several places in the Big Book, including Bill's Story, on p.22 and in Dr. Bob's Nightmare. We also have a wonderful and often quoted story in the back of the BB called "Acceptance Was The Answer;" originally titled, "Doctor, Alcoholic, Addict."
TheMostSordidSpotOnEarth
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: ParadiseOnEarth
Posts: 811
Originally Posted by phxbrd
HELP HELP...
Local Treatment Centers are combining Alcoholic and Drug Abusers into the SAME patient groups. They are telling the patients that the Cure is the same for Both.
Local Treatment Centers are combining Alcoholic and Drug Abusers into the SAME patient groups. They are telling the patients that the Cure is the same for Both.
And, in line with AA traditions, as we have no affiliation with outside enterprises, treatment centers can technically do whatever they want outside of AA.
12 Step Recovered Alcoholic
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 6,613
Sobriety - freedom from alcohol, through the teaching and practice of the 12 steps is the sole purpose of an AA group. We have repeatedly tried other things and always failed" Bill W said that and it was adopted by the general service conference on several occasions.
I was in AA at the time just before NA was founded here, in the early 1980s. While there was no NA the treatment centres just sent them to AA. It was a difficult time, suffice it to say there was less unity, some meetings became almost battle grounds, but there was also a lot of tolerance and eventually NA was established and does great work today.
I have a dear friend who is both alcoholic and addict. He has the advantage of understanding both sides and I think possibly in his early recovery he might have thought they were identical. That is perfectly understandable. But me, I'm just an ordinary run of the mill alcoholic. Whenever interesting drugs crossed my path, like anti depressants the doc gave me, I would trade them for alcohol. I never understood why anyone would take some of those substances and I don't speak the same language in that sense.
Recovery process seems similar to me with the exception of the 1st and 12th steps. It was another alcoholic who won my confidence and had the power to help where no one else could. I wouldn't know where to start in that respect with an addict.
I was in AA at the time just before NA was founded here, in the early 1980s. While there was no NA the treatment centres just sent them to AA. It was a difficult time, suffice it to say there was less unity, some meetings became almost battle grounds, but there was also a lot of tolerance and eventually NA was established and does great work today.
I have a dear friend who is both alcoholic and addict. He has the advantage of understanding both sides and I think possibly in his early recovery he might have thought they were identical. That is perfectly understandable. But me, I'm just an ordinary run of the mill alcoholic. Whenever interesting drugs crossed my path, like anti depressants the doc gave me, I would trade them for alcohol. I never understood why anyone would take some of those substances and I don't speak the same language in that sense.
Recovery process seems similar to me with the exception of the 1st and 12th steps. It was another alcoholic who won my confidence and had the power to help where no one else could. I wouldn't know where to start in that respect with an addict.
Member
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Near Scranton PA
Posts: 424
In a perfect world, "addicts" would have the same access to NA as "alcoholics" have to AA. In my area, that is not the case. The NA meetings are few and far between while AA is fairly ubiquitous.
On the other side of the coin, I was in a 66 bed rehab facility last September. Of the 66, only three, myself included, had problems centering on alcohol abuse alone. I was also, by and large, about three decades older than the typical patient at this particular rehab.
I attend 4-6 AA meetings a week with LOTS of oldtimers. Everyone understands the Primary Purpose of AA but everyone also understands that AA has something to offer to any stripe of addict.
If I have to "give it away to keep it", why wouldn't I give it to anyone who wants it? Maybe I can't "relate" to a young kid who recalls carpet surfing for bits of rock, but it's not because he's an "addict" and I'm an "alcoholic". It's because I just haven't engaged in that particular exercise. I also never seated my way through the DTs, restrained in a public hospital, something that was a fairly common experience with the first wave of AAs. Once again, not because I'm a higher order alcoholic, I just didn't get to that particular place. In either case, I've found other ways to illustrate my addiction and damage my self-respect.
On the other side of the coin, I was in a 66 bed rehab facility last September. Of the 66, only three, myself included, had problems centering on alcohol abuse alone. I was also, by and large, about three decades older than the typical patient at this particular rehab.
I attend 4-6 AA meetings a week with LOTS of oldtimers. Everyone understands the Primary Purpose of AA but everyone also understands that AA has something to offer to any stripe of addict.
If I have to "give it away to keep it", why wouldn't I give it to anyone who wants it? Maybe I can't "relate" to a young kid who recalls carpet surfing for bits of rock, but it's not because he's an "addict" and I'm an "alcoholic". It's because I just haven't engaged in that particular exercise. I also never seated my way through the DTs, restrained in a public hospital, something that was a fairly common experience with the first wave of AAs. Once again, not because I'm a higher order alcoholic, I just didn't get to that particular place. In either case, I've found other ways to illustrate my addiction and damage my self-respect.
12 Step Recovered Alcoholic
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 6,613
Originally Posted by SOBERINNEPA
In a perfect world, "addicts" would have the same access to NA as "alcoholics" have to AA. In my area, that is not the case. The NA meetings are few and far between while AA is fairly ubiquitous.
Member
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Living with love.
Posts: 45
[QUOTE=phxbrd;3382114]HELP HELP...
Is there medical studies that indicate that "one size fits all" ?
I'm not sure if there ever can be cut and dry medical evidence when it comes to spirituality because I think it's just too big, bigger than me anyway!, and would be difficult to box into a medical paradigm where there are lots of x+y=z principles........but over 70 years (I think) of 12 steps empirical evidence is pretty compelling.
I also have seen 12 steps based programs used for over eating, smoking cigarettes, gambling, re-parenting and there's probably other areas where it's used.
I have also known AA's to go to NA- myself included- when there's no AA meetings because poison/ addiction/fear are all encompassing whether it's through a drink, snort, shoot etc.
Just my two cents worth
Luv, Love.
Is there medical studies that indicate that "one size fits all" ?
I'm not sure if there ever can be cut and dry medical evidence when it comes to spirituality because I think it's just too big, bigger than me anyway!, and would be difficult to box into a medical paradigm where there are lots of x+y=z principles........but over 70 years (I think) of 12 steps empirical evidence is pretty compelling.
I also have seen 12 steps based programs used for over eating, smoking cigarettes, gambling, re-parenting and there's probably other areas where it's used.
I have also known AA's to go to NA- myself included- when there's no AA meetings because poison/ addiction/fear are all encompassing whether it's through a drink, snort, shoot etc.
Just my two cents worth
Luv, Love.
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: St Joseph, MO
Posts: 6
Thank you all for your input.
Being new to forums etc, my asking for a couple of answers was directed to the WRONG group.
While I/we appreciate all of the personal comments, experiances and opnions..they are still just that, personal opinions and experiances..
I/We have been informed, this morning, by phone calls and other email, that most of the participants of Alcohol web sites are graduates of treatment centers.
And to expect their support of treatment centers.
"Who would speaks ill of TC U? or of your first grade teacher...?"
I/we were told an ask another question... was the TC reason, for reconfiguring the original AA concept, an attmpt to fit their particular programs to satisfy their main Customer.The Insurance Companies.?
Copies of Treament Center agreements with the Major Insurance companies are now being located and copied.
I/we have been also advised to ask The NA headquarters in CA directly why they were formed. I/we sincerely hope it was not to "take up the Slack"
I/we have web sites addresses of some very good medical forums that discuss research in all fields of medicine etc. Sites that reduce medical terms to a level that is understood by a lay person.
Again Thank all of you for a great 14 hrs , I have been up most of the night on this project...
Stick around all of you I want to give you your 20yr coins..I am 81 years old
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GET A SPONSOR, NOT THE ONE YOU LIKE BUT THE ONE THAT WILL TELL YOU WHAT YOU NEED TO DO TO STAY SOBER....
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Keep coming Back
PHXBRD (To rise from the ashes)
Being new to forums etc, my asking for a couple of answers was directed to the WRONG group.
While I/we appreciate all of the personal comments, experiances and opnions..they are still just that, personal opinions and experiances..
I/We have been informed, this morning, by phone calls and other email, that most of the participants of Alcohol web sites are graduates of treatment centers.
And to expect their support of treatment centers.
"Who would speaks ill of TC U? or of your first grade teacher...?"
I/we were told an ask another question... was the TC reason, for reconfiguring the original AA concept, an attmpt to fit their particular programs to satisfy their main Customer.The Insurance Companies.?
Copies of Treament Center agreements with the Major Insurance companies are now being located and copied.
I/we have been also advised to ask The NA headquarters in CA directly why they were formed. I/we sincerely hope it was not to "take up the Slack"
I/we have web sites addresses of some very good medical forums that discuss research in all fields of medicine etc. Sites that reduce medical terms to a level that is understood by a lay person.
Again Thank all of you for a great 14 hrs , I have been up most of the night on this project...
Stick around all of you I want to give you your 20yr coins..I am 81 years old
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
GET A SPONSOR, NOT THE ONE YOU LIKE BUT THE ONE THAT WILL TELL YOU WHAT YOU NEED TO DO TO STAY SOBER....
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Keep coming Back
PHXBRD (To rise from the ashes)
Gone In
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 223
It's probably a business decision. They're trying to gain efficiencies by pooling resources and treatment groups. They did the same thing in the OP rehab I attended and it worked fine.
They didn't focus on 12 step recovery (though we were required to attend some community meetings of our choice to graduate) so there were no singleness of purpose issues. The doc's were there to guide us through the stages of recovery and to help give us the tools to cope with life sober.
I personally don't see any value in segregating alcoholics and addicts into discreet groups.
They didn't focus on 12 step recovery (though we were required to attend some community meetings of our choice to graduate) so there were no singleness of purpose issues. The doc's were there to guide us through the stages of recovery and to help give us the tools to cope with life sober.
I personally don't see any value in segregating alcoholics and addicts into discreet groups.
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