Sally1009

I know that many people feel that tough love is sometimes needed with some people, in certain circumstances. But in my experience it can be incredibly harmful.
For example, my sponsor before last really lashed out at me last summer. He ( yes , I know opposite sexes shouldn't sponsor, but he is gay) had been wonderful for the first five months of last year - very gentle, very quick to praise. And I thrived under his care.
Then, out of nowhere, I relapsed. He gave me HELL. He said so many hurtful things that I was in tears. Criticised my house ( I am very untidy), said I hadn't listened to him etc, and much more. Shortly after that he fired me, saying he was too busy anyway, and that I should look for a sponsor who would give me tough love.
So I changed sponsors. But this was so much worse. She was soft to begin with, but gradually became more and more critical, praising hardly ever, and my spirits sank further and further, and I relapsed more and more. Now I have no sponsor...
I have seen many people being spoken to harshly in meetings - often newcomers, and I think tough love can be overdone sometimes, or be used as an excuse to justify some member in effect bullying another.
I'd be interested to know what you think.

epskie

This sounds awful. I've only been to 2 meetings and I'm yet to find a sponsor but I'll be watching this thread avidly for the responses of the experienced members - this has scared me! Hope you're ok Sally x

Dee74

I have a whole spiel about tough love, but I suspect this is more about you and your situation Sally


I think we all need someone who'll respect us - someone who won;t deny us our dignity- but who won't shy away from the truth and from challenging us if we have some bad ideas.

I hope you find that person, Sally

UpperbucksAAguy

Tough love is not an excuse to be an abusive jerk. It is tough to love some of the people that show up in our rooms. Sometimes it also tough to allow them to find their own way. But it is very easy to be a jerk

Sally1009

Epskie - sorry, I didn't mean to put you off. AA has done wonders for me. It's just that the concept of tough love comes up now and then, and I would like to know what benefits it has.

Boleo

Tough Love, in the Al-Anon sense, is being detached enough so as to avoid any type of help that will "enable" a alcoholic or addict to continue their bad habits without consequences.

From a AA sponsors perspective it would be NOT co-signing any ones B.S. and telling them straight up that what they are thinking, doing or saying is just plain delusional.

MemphisBlues

I hear that this so-called tough love approach is common in many rooms of AA. Heck, I see it in the barbs thrown around on this and other recovery forums: An original post will seek guidance and then the back-and-forth begins on whose answer is right and they end with the words "love ya."

I'm grateful I haven't seen that, nor have I seen anyone chastised in the rooms I attend.

A thought, however, comes to mind to your question: did your sponsor fire you because he didn't have time,thought you needed "tough love," or because you relapsed? I am slowly learning to look at my issues in whatever problem arises.

I don't really know what to advise regarding such displays in meetings as I have never encountered the situation.

Mo S

My opinions are drawn from personal experience. Since day 1; I have had gentle kind and loving sponsors- even when i made mistakes. They were honest with me in a caring and respectful way. I was "the walking wounded" and "tough love" would have sent me the other way - straight out of the door. I was very young and they sensed I needed a maternal presense which had always been missing in my life. The most important thing is "I wanted what they had". (I did fire one sponsor who turned out to be a real beyotch.) They had this approach while taking me rigorously thru the steps and traditions of AA. Sounds like you had some bad sponsors- not by choice. Eventually- many show their true colors- just like EVERYONE. I highly doubt Bill and Bob would have taken the "tough love " approach....they taught thru example. We are hard enough on ourselves- who needs someone with a hammer helping us to lamb baste ourselves at any given time.
I wish you the best.
BTW - my present sponsor is a man...I get along very well with men and he is old enough to be my father- no messy dynamics there.

BlueEyedBoy

Sally- your sponsors sound AWFUL. I have a lot of friends in the Fellowship, and an amazing sponsor myself. And I am really new to recovery, and try to follow their instructions and advice, but in the end I am an alcoholic, and I am battling a cunning, powerful and baffling addiction. As long as I am honest with them, they are always so supportive. And in that I feel more comfortable with them, and feel like I can be more honest with them when I feel terrible. From my (limited) understanding, that is how it works?

Big hugs anyways! You are doing so well to keep up with the meetings though!

dawnrunner

I have never had a sponsor, but from reading these forums I infer that sometimes people expect too much from them.

Not saying this is you, OP; but elsewhere I've read of people repeatedly calling their sponsors at 3 a.m. and expecting full interest and sympathy, a kind of motherly tolerance of all foibles, perfect tact, almost psychic understanding.

And I also see a tendency to make the sponsor responsible for one's sobriety, with sponsorial failures being pointed to as the cause for relapses.

I think that it is very dangerous to make anyone that important and to expect so much from them. So whether it's tough love or rude dysfunctional personality, I'd keep some distance and perspective on the whole sponsor relationship.

ANEWAUGUST

"For example, my sponsor before last really lashed out at me last summer. He ( yes , I know opposite sexes shouldn't sponsor, but he is gay) had been wonderful for the first five months of last year - very gentle, very quick to praise. And I thrived under his care.
Then, out of nowhere, I relapsed. He gave me HELL"

The relationship was working until you relapsed, and the relapse came out of nowhere?

Maybe, just maybe this isn't about him, maybe it is about your committment of going to any lengths to stay sober?

Not to say his lashing out was correct, or that his praise of your progress in sobriety was correct.

A sponsor is a guide, nothing more, nothing less. They can't get me sober, and they can't keep me sober.

I have learned that I had alot of work to do, and it all began with me.

My sponsor cuts me no slack. She had me take a long hard look at where my drinking careet had taken me. Then, I made a committment to work the steps, and follow her
suggestions. She neither praised me, nor berated me, she just guided me.

My sponsor, has a sponsor, who has a sponsor. I didn't realize at first how important a long and strong legacy of sponsorship in finding a sponsor who is able to practice detachment while guiding me.

Just sharing what has worked for me. I also sponsor some women. One, has been trying to get sober for over 10 years, has only been able to stay sober 10 days at the most. She is about to be homeless and I am watching this thing called alcoholism slowly kill her.

At times, I may be guilty of being tough with her, as my love for her, wants her to live.

Sally1009

I think it's very individual, and some people respond better to the carrot rather than the stick. I personally do better with praise and encouragement rather than negative evaluation and harsh criticism, which tends to bring down my very fragile self esteem.
I am not clear why my first sponsor fired me; I was working the program to the best of my ability, doing everything he suggested. I don't know what triggered my relapse. But it was very shocking and hurtful to be so berated by him. I do see this kind of harshness in the rooms - I'm not just speaking about myself. The other day, for example, there was a young woman in tears because her kids had been taken away from her. Someone told her to "Get off her pity-pot". I dont' understand how that kind of treatment can be helpful.
I think some people take advantage of the concept of tough love, and use it to justify being unkind.

keltie

It's weird, I've been seeing so many posts about AA members acting weird lately. The posts about controlling, almost cult like behavior seem so strange! This is not what AA is all about. I say if you're uncomfortable, seek a new sponsor. But, don't expect constant warm fuzzies, especially if you're not doing something right.

Sally1009

I suppose I'm saying that I don't believe there is any excuse for downright rudeness, or unkindness. It's not mature, adult behaviour. I am a very polite person myself , and I hope to be treated back the same way. I dont't expect warm 'fuzzies' all the time, and I am certainly hoping for honesty from people, especially from my sponsor. My point is that one can be honest and respectful and courteous at the same time. Reducing people to tears with abusive words doesn't seem productive or healthy.

Mark75

I got some of that "tough love" in treatment.

Some of it was appropriate and used in a thoughtful and strategic manner. Just the way I would use it, LOLOLOLOL

Some was random and seemingly pointless.

Some of it was of the "if it doesn't kill you it makes you stronger" variety.

Don't let it kill you, Sally... figuratively, spiritually or for real. Because drugs and alcohol can do that well enough.

sugarbear1

Move on and find another sponsor, but don't expect praise for staying stopped or on a regular basis, that isn't the sponsor's role. Get a network of sober women who know you enough to praise you and to also to help you when you need to vent, not gossip.

A sponsor's time and energy can be more useful when working with people who are willing to go to any lengths to stay stopped. Willingness to follow suggestions is important, or the message of "I'm in control" or "I know what is best for me" is given, and that isn't how this works. My ego has had enough stroking, I need someone to tell me how it is. Call me on my stuff. Be brutally honest. I won't allow myself to be bullied or abused, but I do need to know when I'm being a jerk or not following directions.

Try calling your sponsor before you drink....

When I drank, I was self-centered, self-involved, I wanted what I wanted when I wanted it, I had low self-esteem, I was manipulative, and I didn't like being with other women (they could see through me more easily than any male) and in general, I had self-will run riot. Praising me only inflated my ego.

You can find your sponsor! Keep trying!! Stay stopped!

desertsong

I can relate, Sally. My first sponsor (2 years sober) and I got along great in the beginning but I started having concerns about her when I'd have trouble reaching her. She often wouldn't answer her phone and I wouldn't get responses to the voicemails I'd leave for her. I got sick of trying to reach her without success. Then, out of the blue, she'd finally call and we'd set a time to get together. Most of the time she was late; then when she'd show up, the only thing she'd want to talk about was HER. She had a lot of issues in her own life that she was still dealing with and I felt like a sounding board for her to vent about her own stuff instead of focusing on my recovery. I relapsed twice under her sponsorship (totally on ME, not her - I don't blame her in the slightest), and when we talked about it afterwards, she totally berated me and I was basically told that I had to work the program HER way or I was going to keep drinking. All I wanted to do was get sober, honestly work the steps, and have a sponsor guide me along the way. But with her being unavailable so often, being so self-centered, and bossy about doing things her way, I decided I needed someone else. Apparently, it wasn't just me, either, because her two other sponsees had the same issues and also fired her.

My new sponsor has 25+ years sober and is like my "AA mom." She is kind, loving and shows me a lot of grace but she won't hesitate to tell me the truth when I can't see it myself. She knows the AA program backwards and forwards and has kept me solidly on the path and working the steps the way the BB says to work them. She is encouraging when I need it, compassionately TOUGH when I need it, and always returns phone calls. I am making huge progress under her sponsorship and don't feel as "lost" about working the program as I did with my first sponsor.

Certainly, our willingness to do the work makes all the difference, no matter who our sponsor is. We could have an awesome sponsor, but if we aren't willing to apply ourselves, it won't make a shred of difference. I agree that "tough love" needs to be part of the equation sometimes, but the "tough" has to be tempered by "love" too. We need someone who can be honest with us about where we are deluding ourselves, being lazy, etc. but we need to hear it in a way that doesn't bash our self esteem and leave us wounded ... without being coddled at the same time. It's a balance, for sure, and I give huge kudos to those sponsors who have mastered that balance. Dealing with alkies can be a tough job and I'm grateful to those who are willing to do that.

Sally1009

DesertSong - absolutely spot-on. This is the kind of sponsor
I'm looking for. Someone who has achieved that tricky balance of honesty plus compassion without making you feel like you are six. I'm really happy for you that you have got such a great sponsor.
SugarBear; yes I see what you mean. It's just that in my case, because my sf-esteem is so fragile, I do respond well to praise. Just a simple "Well done" can turn my day around, fill my heart with hope, and make me feel less badly about myself. I don't have much ego-stroking in my life, so the odd kind words really make all the difference.
And I' not just talking specifically about sponsors. If people in and out of the rooms just give me a bit of encouragement, a bit of positive feedback, my immediate response is to want to help another suffering alcoholic. It sets off a 'Virtuous Cycle'.

BlueMoon

Tough Love - Can it be abused?

Most emphatically YES.

Some use the phrase as a means of exerting control over another – to judge, to bully and to be a general @ss while having an excuse for being that way. For some, it's a way of not dealing with an unpleasant situation. For some, it's a way of saying “YOU disappointed ME and I am going to PUNISH YOU.” All of that may be “tough” but it sure as heck isn’t “love.” IMO, that isn’t very “sober behavior" either.

That said, that IS NOT what “Tough Love” is REALLY about. One can be "Tough" without being cruel. "Love" is never cruel.

Sally1009

Thanks everyone for your helpful replies. It's given me a lot to think about. I still maintain tough love can be abused sometimes, but I do see that in some situations, with some people, the truth needs to be put across fairly directly, for example if the alcoholic is in a dangerous amount of denial..
My concern is when tough love is misinterpreted, and how that can negatively affect an alcokolic - leading at the extreme to that alcoholic even leaving AA altogether.