Tough Love - Can it be abused?
Member
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 3,095
Tough love, detached, encouraging, or downright mean, the sponsor's primary function is to guide another through the 12 Steps by sharing their experience. Only one response so far has mentioned the Steps.
A sponsor that knows that primary function, will also be familiar with putting into practice these directions from Chapter 7: "It is not the matter of giving that is in question, but when and how to give." aabb1st
A sponsor that knows that primary function, will also be familiar with putting into practice these directions from Chapter 7: "It is not the matter of giving that is in question, but when and how to give." aabb1st
Sally1009
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 467
Tough love, detached, encouraging, or downright mean, the sponsor's primary function is to guide another through the 12 Steps by sharing their experience. Only one response so far has mentioned the Steps.
A sponsor that knows that primary function, will also be familiar with putting into practice these directions from Chapter 7: "It is not the matter of giving that is in question, but when and how to give." aabb1st
*
So are you saying it's OK to be mean and tough provided the sponsee is guided through the steps? That the ends justify the means?
A sponsor that knows that primary function, will also be familiar with putting into practice these directions from Chapter 7: "It is not the matter of giving that is in question, but when and how to give." aabb1st
*
So are you saying it's OK to be mean and tough provided the sponsee is guided through the steps? That the ends justify the means?
Member
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: The Sunny South
Posts: 1,666
Working the program, would involve working the steps with your sponsor. Did your sponsor take you thru the steps?
I have to admit, in the beginning I truly didn't understand alot of what my sponsor said, and how it all was going to get me past the obsession to drink. But, I was desperate, she had 27 years in the program, and I wanted the quality of life she had in sobriety. All she would say was to keep working the steps, be open, honest and willing.
As Sugarbear suggested, try to become friends with other sober women. Those friendships will help support your recovery.
She wasn't necessarily mean, but, she was a bit detached. Years later, we are friends. But, when I was first trying to get sober, I was told I wouldn't get accolades for my sobriety.
My low, fragile, self-esteem began to repair itself as I worked the steps.
Around step 5, I realized, I wasn't fighting a drink anymore, and I could look people in the eye once again. My self-esteem began to improve. the "feelings" I had been looking for in a bottle, began to come from within as I began to live by the spiritual principals of the program.
I tried to quit many different times. I even had a few years of being sober, but, dry, and far from happy...today, I can honestly say I am happy, and have found peace and serenity which eluded me for so many years.
I wish you all the best on your journey to stay sober..
I have to admit, in the beginning I truly didn't understand alot of what my sponsor said, and how it all was going to get me past the obsession to drink. But, I was desperate, she had 27 years in the program, and I wanted the quality of life she had in sobriety. All she would say was to keep working the steps, be open, honest and willing.
As Sugarbear suggested, try to become friends with other sober women. Those friendships will help support your recovery.
She wasn't necessarily mean, but, she was a bit detached. Years later, we are friends. But, when I was first trying to get sober, I was told I wouldn't get accolades for my sobriety.
My low, fragile, self-esteem began to repair itself as I worked the steps.
Around step 5, I realized, I wasn't fighting a drink anymore, and I could look people in the eye once again. My self-esteem began to improve. the "feelings" I had been looking for in a bottle, began to come from within as I began to live by the spiritual principals of the program.
I tried to quit many different times. I even had a few years of being sober, but, dry, and far from happy...today, I can honestly say I am happy, and have found peace and serenity which eluded me for so many years.
I wish you all the best on your journey to stay sober..
once in a . . .
Join Date: May 2004
Location: looking in / looking out
Posts: 1,214
. . . But, when I was first trying to get sober, I was told I wouldn't get accolades for my sobriety.
. . .
I disagree with that - altho I DO UNDERSTAND the sentiment behind it.
NOT to be argumentative but my opinion : I think newbies, especially, need/DESERVE some recognition for their achievements. Not drinking is a darn hard thing to do and there's nothing wrong with an "atta boy" once in a while. I think it can serve as a reminder of WHAT they're doing and WHY they're in AA.
The BOTTOM LINE of AA IS TO GET/STAY SOBER. If I’m not sober, I can’t work the steps. What is wrong with recognizing that?
From another angle – I’m going thru a rough time right now. Even tho I’ve been sober for some time . . . and I doubt I’ll drink over it - but one never knows . . . I still appreciate the occasional “atta boy” from my friends. It’s always nice to hear that you’re doing a good job.
“Hey, you walked thru that and didn’t drink! ATTA BOY!”
Blue
. . .
I disagree with that - altho I DO UNDERSTAND the sentiment behind it.
NOT to be argumentative but my opinion : I think newbies, especially, need/DESERVE some recognition for their achievements. Not drinking is a darn hard thing to do and there's nothing wrong with an "atta boy" once in a while. I think it can serve as a reminder of WHAT they're doing and WHY they're in AA.
The BOTTOM LINE of AA IS TO GET/STAY SOBER. If I’m not sober, I can’t work the steps. What is wrong with recognizing that?
From another angle – I’m going thru a rough time right now. Even tho I’ve been sober for some time . . . and I doubt I’ll drink over it - but one never knows . . . I still appreciate the occasional “atta boy” from my friends. It’s always nice to hear that you’re doing a good job.
“Hey, you walked thru that and didn’t drink! ATTA BOY!”
Blue
~sb
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: MD
Posts: 15,960
I was the same as you. I also had those harsh sponsors. I had a wonderful woman guide me through the steps quickly and fairly thoroughly (as thoroughly as I could on days 14 & 15 of sobriety). I had another, she was not warm and fuzzy, she was hard, but in a sober way (not harsh), but she had some things going on and wasn't able to continue with me last summer, so she had one of her sponsees try to help. This woman was trying to be hard and sober, but she came off as harsh and inhumane. I believe I am on my 4th sponsor in 11 months. Luckily this sponsor has been able to guide me through the steps the same way the first sponsor did! So far, I've worked through the steps 3 times (the third time I learned the sponsor's part), and I will have 11 months sober on Monday.
I truly do understand. That's why I have some friends I can call and whine and vent and cry and laugh with! Those people are priceless! Sponsors can be change, as needed, but those friends will always be there for me!
Hugs,
I truly do understand. That's why I have some friends I can call and whine and vent and cry and laugh with! Those people are priceless! Sponsors can be change, as needed, but those friends will always be there for me!
Hugs,
~sb
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: MD
Posts: 15,960
I hadn't mentioned being guided through the steps, but that is the sponsor's role, although I've found many women tend to play the "follow suggestions first and if this works, then I'll guide you through the steps" deal. I have been in and out of AA for a loooong 25 years of sliding further down in my alcoholism. Somehow, Apryl showed up and helped me out, the next 3 are also AA friends of hers! Each has their own way, their own personality, their own style. You'll find yours!! Keep praying on it and she will show up!
We need more women to become strong sponsors!
We need more women to become strong sponsors!
Your attitude, not your aptitude, will determine your altitude
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Oxnard (The Nard), CA, USA.
Posts: 13,883
I like to hear the truth, at least somebody version other than my own. Its the delivery that matters for me. Lace the truth in sarcasm, condescending ridicule and/or brute force...no thanks. Use tact and loving persuasion...I can hear you.
Member
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Wappingers Falls, NY
Posts: 618
Re:Tough Love - Can it be abused? I had a sponsor like that early on. He liked to talk about himself mostly, and how ‘he’ chooses to remain sober. But what he did after being 9 days sober annoyed me to no end. He said: “I heard you told your story at another meeting, and did so without ‘my’ approval. Who said you could do that anyway, huh? Well…tell me, or I’ll fire you.” That turned me right off, and from the point on I absolved from ever having that happen again. So I said my goodbyes and took my bags packing, literally. And that’s when my undoing began.
I spent the next 10 years in a haze of alcoholic denial and lingering resentments. And that, of course, was only the beginning. It was only until my life became completely unmanageable that I gave “AA” another try. But thank God I did, because the ball got rolling for me again after that. The primary reason behind my reversal of fate had a lot to do with my new sponsor mostly, not just "AA". He’s one of those “AA” old timers, but doesn’t act like one. He has a degree in “AA” Bulls**t and knows when to speak and when to act. Basically, he knows how to remain calm even under extreme duress, and does so with causing a scene. He's never one to give commands either, only suggestions, and uses expressions like “you can carry the message and not the drunk” to get his point across. And that’s something I can truly appreciate.
He’s not just my sponsor either, but also a good friend; and I mean…friend. Yeah, he has his own set of quirks too, just like everyone else, but who am I to change that? And how could I anyway? We both show each other the same level of respect as does the next person, and we don’t put expectations on each other either, like some people do in “AA”. And that’s been the key to our overall success. I think it has a lot to do with perspective, mostly -a sober perspective I mean, and not just tough love -something we all learn over time. So don’t get discouraged, okay. There’s still hope today even for you. They say in AA: “when the student is ready, the teacher will arrive”; or something to that effect. So do the legwork for now and never forget how you got here, ever. Everything else will work out, over time. We promise…
~God Bless~
What is 'tough love' actually? Love that's still in denial.
I spent the next 10 years in a haze of alcoholic denial and lingering resentments. And that, of course, was only the beginning. It was only until my life became completely unmanageable that I gave “AA” another try. But thank God I did, because the ball got rolling for me again after that. The primary reason behind my reversal of fate had a lot to do with my new sponsor mostly, not just "AA". He’s one of those “AA” old timers, but doesn’t act like one. He has a degree in “AA” Bulls**t and knows when to speak and when to act. Basically, he knows how to remain calm even under extreme duress, and does so with causing a scene. He's never one to give commands either, only suggestions, and uses expressions like “you can carry the message and not the drunk” to get his point across. And that’s something I can truly appreciate.
He’s not just my sponsor either, but also a good friend; and I mean…friend. Yeah, he has his own set of quirks too, just like everyone else, but who am I to change that? And how could I anyway? We both show each other the same level of respect as does the next person, and we don’t put expectations on each other either, like some people do in “AA”. And that’s been the key to our overall success. I think it has a lot to do with perspective, mostly -a sober perspective I mean, and not just tough love -something we all learn over time. So don’t get discouraged, okay. There’s still hope today even for you. They say in AA: “when the student is ready, the teacher will arrive”; or something to that effect. So do the legwork for now and never forget how you got here, ever. Everything else will work out, over time. We promise…
~God Bless~
What is 'tough love' actually? Love that's still in denial.
Member
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Richmond,Va.
Posts: 183
Originally Posted by Sally1009 
I know that many people feel that tough love is sometimes needed with some people, in certain circumstances. But in my experience it can be incredibly harmful.
For example, my sponsor before last really lashed out at me last summer. He ( yes , I know opposite sexes shouldn't sponsor, but he is gay) had been wonderful for the first five months of last year - very gentle, very quick to praise. And I thrived under his care.
Then, out of nowhere, I relapsed. He gave me HELL. He said so many hurtful things that I was in tears. Criticised my house ( I am very untidy), said I hadn't listened to him etc, and much more. Shortly after that he fired me, saying he was too busy anyway, and that I should look for a sponsor who would give me tough love.
So I changed sponsors. But this was so much worse. She was soft to begin with, but gradually became more and more critical, praising hardly ever, and my spirits sank further and further, and I relapsed more and more. Now I have no sponsor...
I have seen many people being spoken to harshly in meetings - often newcomers, and I think tough love can be overdone sometimes, or be used as an excuse to justify some member in effect bullying another.
I'd be interested to know what you think.
For example, my sponsor before last really lashed out at me last summer. He ( yes , I know opposite sexes shouldn't sponsor, but he is gay) had been wonderful for the first five months of last year - very gentle, very quick to praise. And I thrived under his care.
Then, out of nowhere, I relapsed. He gave me HELL. He said so many hurtful things that I was in tears. Criticised my house ( I am very untidy), said I hadn't listened to him etc, and much more. Shortly after that he fired me, saying he was too busy anyway, and that I should look for a sponsor who would give me tough love.
So I changed sponsors. But this was so much worse. She was soft to begin with, but gradually became more and more critical, praising hardly ever, and my spirits sank further and further, and I relapsed more and more. Now I have no sponsor...
I have seen many people being spoken to harshly in meetings - often newcomers, and I think tough love can be overdone sometimes, or be used as an excuse to justify some member in effect bullying another.
I'd be interested to know what you think.
Some of the stronger groups will assign you a sponsor.Stay away from AA clubs by all means your first few years.I won't go into why,that's a whole other topic.
Cheers,Steve
Member
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 3,095
Originally Posted by Sally1009
So are you saying it's OK to be mean and tough provided the sponsee is guided through the steps? That the ends justify the means?
Put still another way, I didn't care for my first sponsor much when I asked him to help me. He seemed righteous, over bearing, 'get God or die' kind of guy. But, he knew how to guide someone through the Steps. And when I started following those directions, I was able to see the tremendous amount of love and compassion he had. I couldn't 'hear' that love until I'd done some work. My alcoholic mind was not a great judge of people.
Originally Posted by BlueMoon
The BOTTOM LINE of AA IS TO GET/STAY SOBER. If I’m not sober, I can’t work the steps. What is wrong with recognizing that?
If I could get sober without the Steps, I wouldn't need AA.
Member
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: « USA » Recovered with AVRT (Rational Recovery) ___________
Posts: 3,680
Originally Posted by keithj
"If I’m not sober, I can’t work the steps."
That's an interesting take. I didn't get sober so I could take the Steps. I took the Steps so I could stay sober.
That's an interesting take. I didn't get sober so I could take the Steps. I took the Steps so I could stay sober.
once in a . . .
Join Date: May 2004
Location: looking in / looking out
Posts: 1,214
Originally Posted by keithj
That's an interesting take. I didn't get sober so I could take the Steps. I took the Steps so I could stay sober. 'Here are the Steps we took...' were how the first 100 recovered from alcoholism.
If I could get sober without the Steps, I wouldn't need AA.
If I could get sober without the Steps, I wouldn't need AA.
They ARE what KEEPS me sober . . . and sane. I cannot do it without AA. I tried on my own for 8 years.
I DID get sober so I could work the steps. I crawled into AA, liked what I saw others had – wanted it for myself – BELIEVED the steps would get me there – and have worked them to the best of my ability for 20 years.
So YES, most emphatically YES, if I don’t work the steps, I can’t STAY sober –
but if I am NOT SOBER, I can’t work the steps . . . NONE of them would make sense with a pint of Southern Comfort in me . . .
the "ATTA BOY's" gave me strength - they still do . . .
Member
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Canada. About as far south as you can get
Posts: 4,768
If you were on your deathbed and a Dr. came with the antidote for your malady would you reject the cure because you didn't like the Dr's bedside manner ??........
unfortunately, many of us would !!!
I am a firm believer in the "principles before personalities" statement. Pay attention to the lesson, not the teachers demeanor or tone of voice.
Sally, try not to be so thin-skinned. People in AA tell me things that totally pi$$ me of at the time and later, in hindsight, were spot on.
Many look for the sponsor that will tell them what they WANT to hear, not what they NEED to hear. Your choice.
Now... go clean your house then hit a meeting !!
All the best
Bob R
unfortunately, many of us would !!!
I am a firm believer in the "principles before personalities" statement. Pay attention to the lesson, not the teachers demeanor or tone of voice.
Sally, try not to be so thin-skinned. People in AA tell me things that totally pi$$ me of at the time and later, in hindsight, were spot on.
Many look for the sponsor that will tell them what they WANT to hear, not what they NEED to hear. Your choice.
Now... go clean your house then hit a meeting !!
All the best
Bob R
once in a . . .
Join Date: May 2004
Location: looking in / looking out
Posts: 1,214
excellent points . . . but there ARE some people who ABUSE their "teaching position" . . . no?
It helps to explain WHY "clean your house!" is a valid statement and NOT a comment on one's housekeeping . . . know what I mean?
Presentation IS important. and there are times that I HAVE been seriously ill and demanded a different doctor - I don't deserve to be treated like sh!t - no matter what the reason.
It helps to explain WHY "clean your house!" is a valid statement and NOT a comment on one's housekeeping . . . know what I mean?
Presentation IS important. and there are times that I HAVE been seriously ill and demanded a different doctor - I don't deserve to be treated like sh!t - no matter what the reason.
Member
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Canada. About as far south as you can get
Posts: 4,768
Originally Posted by BlueMoon
excellent points . . . but there ARE some people who ABUSE their "teaching position" . . . no?
It helps to explain WHY "clean your house!" is a valid statement and NOT a comment on one's housekeeping . . . know what I mean?
Presentation IS important. and there are times that I HAVE been seriously ill and demanded a different doctor - I don't deserve to be treated like sh!t - no matter what the reason.
It helps to explain WHY "clean your house!" is a valid statement and NOT a comment on one's housekeeping . . . know what I mean?
Presentation IS important. and there are times that I HAVE been seriously ill and demanded a different doctor - I don't deserve to be treated like sh!t - no matter what the reason.
Presentation is important but it isn't the main point of the procedure, the medicine is.
All the best.
Bob
once in a . . .
Join Date: May 2004
Location: looking in / looking out
Posts: 1,214
Originally Posted by 2granddaughters
A doctor treated you like sh!t ?? How on earth did they get to be a doctor and carry on a practice.... maybe you were the first patient.
Presentation is important but it isn't the main point of the procedure, the medicine is.
Presentation is important but it isn't the main point of the procedure, the medicine is.
I am more likely to be compliant with my doctors (and there are many) orders if they take the time to EXPLAIN and are half-way decent to me. I am placing MY LIFE in their hands. The same is true with my sponsor.
But for me, the bottom line is : there ARE people who are just plain mean because they CAN be or because they THINK THEY SHOULD BE.
I don’t believe that is neccesary OR acceptable . . . in ANY situation.
One thing I HAVE learned in AA is that I DESERVE RESPECT. I EARNED my chair.
I believe the same is true whether someone has 24 hours or 45 years. It's about respect.
Member
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Metairie, LA
Posts: 3
I'm experiencing tough love (though not from my sponsor) from my spouse right now. I'm still going through rather severe alcohol withdrawals. Another medical bill is not something we need right now, so the hospital option really isn't viable. My wife works weekends and so wanted me to take care of our toddler. I told her that watching a three-year old why going through withdrawal wasn't a particularly good idea (shakes, sweating, nausea, vomiting, etc.) It wasn't that I didn't want to help out. She said the withdrawal symptoms were my fault (using extremely colorful and abusive language). I said I agreed with her, but that didn't mean the symptoms weren't real and that if I'm having a hard time with constant vomiting, again, probably not a good idea for me to give our toddler a bath and if I'm shaking so much I can't hold anything, changing her is probably out of the question, as well. I compared it to someone literally shooting himself in the foot. Not the brightest thing to do, no one else to blame, but that doesn't change the fact that he's still wounded and certain physical activities might be out of the question.
I was sober the first 5 years of our marriage but have really been struggling the last year. Sometimes though when she lashes out and essentially blames me for absolutely everything up to and including the weather, it's extremely depressing. She got mad at me for doing the laundry. I know my relapses have put her through hell, but she really uses it as an opportunity to rip into me. Right after saying she views my alcoholism as a disease, she called me weak and said I have a rotten soul. She finally said I didn't actually love my daughter I only thought I did. I know she's frustrated and probably just venting, but I really think some of these things while understandable weren't the things to say at that particular time and that this type of "tough love" doesn't really help anyone, including her as it just seems to make her even angrier.
I was sober the first 5 years of our marriage but have really been struggling the last year. Sometimes though when she lashes out and essentially blames me for absolutely everything up to and including the weather, it's extremely depressing. She got mad at me for doing the laundry. I know my relapses have put her through hell, but she really uses it as an opportunity to rip into me. Right after saying she views my alcoholism as a disease, she called me weak and said I have a rotten soul. She finally said I didn't actually love my daughter I only thought I did. I know she's frustrated and probably just venting, but I really think some of these things while understandable weren't the things to say at that particular time and that this type of "tough love" doesn't really help anyone, including her as it just seems to make her even angrier.
Member
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Canada. About as far south as you can get
Posts: 4,768
Originally Posted by oberyn1973
I'm experiencing tough love (though not from my sponsor) from my spouse right now. I'm still going through rather severe alcohol withdrawals. Another medical bill is not something we need right now, so the hospital option really isn't viable. My wife works weekends and so wanted me to take care of our toddler. I told her that watching a three-year old why going through withdrawal wasn't a particularly good idea (shakes, sweating, nausea, vomiting, etc.) It wasn't that I didn't want to help out. She said the withdrawal symptoms were my fault (using extremely colorful and abusive language). I said I agreed with her, but that didn't mean the symptoms weren't real and that if I'm having a hard time with constant vomiting, again, probably not a good idea for me to give our toddler a bath and if I'm shaking so much I can't hold anything, changing her is probably out of the question, as well. I compared it to someone literally shooting himself in the foot. Not the brightest thing to do, no one else to blame, but that doesn't change the fact that he's still wounded and certain physical activities might be out of the question.
I was sober the first 5 years of our marriage but have really been struggling the last year. Sometimes though when she lashes out and essentially blames me for absolutely everything up to and including the weather, it's extremely depressing. She got mad at me for doing the laundry. I know my relapses have put her through hell, but she really uses it as an opportunity to rip into me. Right after saying she views my alcoholism as a disease, she called me weak and said I have a rotten soul. She finally said I didn't actually love my daughter I only thought I did. I know she's frustrated and probably just venting, but I really think some of these things while understandable weren't the things to say at that particular time and that this type of "tough love" doesn't really help anyone, including her as it just seems to make her even angrier.
I was sober the first 5 years of our marriage but have really been struggling the last year. Sometimes though when she lashes out and essentially blames me for absolutely everything up to and including the weather, it's extremely depressing. She got mad at me for doing the laundry. I know my relapses have put her through hell, but she really uses it as an opportunity to rip into me. Right after saying she views my alcoholism as a disease, she called me weak and said I have a rotten soul. She finally said I didn't actually love my daughter I only thought I did. I know she's frustrated and probably just venting, but I really think some of these things while understandable weren't the things to say at that particular time and that this type of "tough love" doesn't really help anyone, including her as it just seems to make her even angrier.
Sounds like your wife feels like she is as trapped by your disease as you are, Al-Anon would help her I'm sure.
How are you planning on getting and staying sober this go-around?
All the best.
Bob R
Member
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Metairie, LA
Posts: 3
Originally Posted by 2granddaughters
Welcome !!
Sounds like your wife feels like she is as trapped by your disease as you are, Al-Anon would help her I'm sure.
How are you planning on getting and staying sober this go-around?
All the best.
Bob R
Sounds like your wife feels like she is as trapped by your disease as you are, Al-Anon would help her I'm sure.
How are you planning on getting and staying sober this go-around?
All the best.
Bob R
I'm going to try to do what helped me before get into a treatment program and this time actually talk about and work on some other issues (I was sexually abused as a teen and it's something I never really dealt with at the time).
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