Outburst at Meeting
Member
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 3,095
I was at a meeting recently hat summed this issue up for me. It's already well summed up in AA's literature and Bill's subsequent writings, but it was helpful to connect personally to Tradition 1.
At this meeting, nobody fit in. There were the handful of alcoholics, a larger share of alcoholic addicts, some tweakers, some crackheads, some dually-addicted persons, etc. Instead of the intended effect of being more inclusive, this meeting had achieved the opposite effect of nobody being able to identify. Everybody was different, had a different problem, at went to lengths to distinguish themselves from everybody else. It was the exact opposite of a spiritual humility and anonymity.
Sad thing is, it used to be a very strong meeting with lots of recovery. Now, it's filled with that ever-rotating group of 24hr-1yr lengths of sobriety, new people coming and going, but very few ever staying for good. The core set of people with solid recovery that founded the group were nowhere to be seen.
The experience of AA has been that AA does best when it sticks to a single purpose. That's the idea out of which Tradition 1 was formed. When groups don't stick to that, the group doesn't survive and the message doesn't get carried. In the attempt to be inclusive, the message of recovery we have found gets lost. Instead of more people recovering, fewer people actually do.
Also, it's worth considering the harm that groups like this do to NA in their communities. They are effectively preventing NA from becoming a strong recovery force.
Just things to consider. I know at one time I felt very much that 'addiction is addiction' and AA should be be for all addicted persons. After enough years of seeing the failures in the practical application of that opinion, I have a different viewpoint these days.
At this meeting, nobody fit in. There were the handful of alcoholics, a larger share of alcoholic addicts, some tweakers, some crackheads, some dually-addicted persons, etc. Instead of the intended effect of being more inclusive, this meeting had achieved the opposite effect of nobody being able to identify. Everybody was different, had a different problem, at went to lengths to distinguish themselves from everybody else. It was the exact opposite of a spiritual humility and anonymity.
Sad thing is, it used to be a very strong meeting with lots of recovery. Now, it's filled with that ever-rotating group of 24hr-1yr lengths of sobriety, new people coming and going, but very few ever staying for good. The core set of people with solid recovery that founded the group were nowhere to be seen.
The experience of AA has been that AA does best when it sticks to a single purpose. That's the idea out of which Tradition 1 was formed. When groups don't stick to that, the group doesn't survive and the message doesn't get carried. In the attempt to be inclusive, the message of recovery we have found gets lost. Instead of more people recovering, fewer people actually do.
Also, it's worth considering the harm that groups like this do to NA in their communities. They are effectively preventing NA from becoming a strong recovery force.
Just things to consider. I know at one time I felt very much that 'addiction is addiction' and AA should be be for all addicted persons. After enough years of seeing the failures in the practical application of that opinion, I have a different viewpoint these days.
Member
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Miami, FL
Posts: 1,701
Maybe I am crazy, but this makes no sense. If alcohol addiction is so unique, that recovery is damaged by contact with persons with other addictions...then how can NA help people? There are so many different types of addictions there--so if every addiction to every substance is unique, would not NA be as ineffective as AA would be if someone mentioned a drug other than alcohol?
I always thought "singleness of purpose" referred to recovery (which is the same for all addictions). If singleness of purpose refers to "not drinking" rather than "recovery" that sounds like an association of dry drunks.
I always hated it when people say "Live in the solution rather than the problem," but it feels appropriate here. Most meetings I have been to did not allow much talk about drinking or drug use, but rather focused on how members were recovering.
It is sad that people leave when "undesirables" come into a group. But that says more about the ones who leave and the quality of their commitment to recovery. Sure it is easy to reach out to the "right" kind of people. But that seems to miss the point. And it seems to be a cunning infiltration of addictive thinking.
By separating oneself from other addicts and convincing oneself that somehow one's own addiction is unique and special and "not like theirs" is hubris. I never stole anything and never lost a job because of my addiction, but if I believed that I was a different class of addict from the drunk in the gutter or the junkie in a squat---that would not be recovery. I do not think much about humility, but reading this thread makes me realize how important it is. And how rare.
I always thought "singleness of purpose" referred to recovery (which is the same for all addictions). If singleness of purpose refers to "not drinking" rather than "recovery" that sounds like an association of dry drunks.
I always hated it when people say "Live in the solution rather than the problem," but it feels appropriate here. Most meetings I have been to did not allow much talk about drinking or drug use, but rather focused on how members were recovering.
It is sad that people leave when "undesirables" come into a group. But that says more about the ones who leave and the quality of their commitment to recovery. Sure it is easy to reach out to the "right" kind of people. But that seems to miss the point. And it seems to be a cunning infiltration of addictive thinking.
By separating oneself from other addicts and convincing oneself that somehow one's own addiction is unique and special and "not like theirs" is hubris. I never stole anything and never lost a job because of my addiction, but if I believed that I was a different class of addict from the drunk in the gutter or the junkie in a squat---that would not be recovery. I do not think much about humility, but reading this thread makes me realize how important it is. And how rare.
Member
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 2,126
In AA, 'Singleness of purpose' does NOT refer to recovery in general; it refers to recovery from alcoholism-recovery over alcohol; it states that AA's 'singleness of purpose' is recovery from alcoholism, and alcoholism only (NOT drugs; NOT all addictions; alcohol/alcoholism ONLY.
There's an article about it on AA's site. See..........: http://www.aa.org/en_pdfs/f-13_fall-winter02.pdf
(o:
There's an article about it on AA's site. See..........: http://www.aa.org/en_pdfs/f-13_fall-winter02.pdf
(o:
Member
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 142
Originally Posted by miamifella 
Maybe I am crazy, but this makes no sense. If alcohol addiction is so unique, that recovery is damaged by contact with persons with other addictions...then how can NA help people? There are so many different types of addictions there--so if every addiction to every substance is unique, would not NA be as ineffective as AA would be if someone mentioned a drug other than alcohol?
I always thought "singleness of purpose" referred to recovery (which is the same for all addictions). If singleness of purpose refers to "not drinking" rather than "recovery" that sounds like an association of dry drunks.
I always hated it when people say "Live in the solution rather than the problem," but it feels appropriate here. Most meetings I have been to did not allow much talk about drinking or drug use, but rather focused on how members were recovering.
It is sad that people leave when "undesirables" come into a group. But that says more about the ones who leave and the quality of their commitment to recovery. Sure it is easy to reach out to the "right" kind of people. But that seems to miss the point. And it seems to be a cunning infiltration of addictive thinking.
By separating oneself from other addicts and convincing oneself that somehow one's own addiction is unique and special and "not like theirs" is hubris. I never stole anything and never lost a job because of my addiction, but if I believed that I was a different class of addict from the drunk in the gutter or the junkie in a squat---that would not be recovery. I do not think much about humility, but reading this thread makes me realize how important it is. And how rare.
I always thought "singleness of purpose" referred to recovery (which is the same for all addictions). If singleness of purpose refers to "not drinking" rather than "recovery" that sounds like an association of dry drunks.
I always hated it when people say "Live in the solution rather than the problem," but it feels appropriate here. Most meetings I have been to did not allow much talk about drinking or drug use, but rather focused on how members were recovering.
It is sad that people leave when "undesirables" come into a group. But that says more about the ones who leave and the quality of their commitment to recovery. Sure it is easy to reach out to the "right" kind of people. But that seems to miss the point. And it seems to be a cunning infiltration of addictive thinking.
By separating oneself from other addicts and convincing oneself that somehow one's own addiction is unique and special and "not like theirs" is hubris. I never stole anything and never lost a job because of my addiction, but if I believed that I was a different class of addict from the drunk in the gutter or the junkie in a squat---that would not be recovery. I do not think much about humility, but reading this thread makes me realize how important it is. And how rare.
1000 Post Club
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Midwest USA
Posts: 2,284
jojaba, if you have ever gone on a alcoholic "bender" than you can identify with some crack addicts. Crack addicts will go a few days with little sleep, poor hygiene, talking nonsense ect.... Very similar to my alcohol only weekends before I became "cross-addicted". Alcohol withdrawal has some commonality with heroin withdrawal: insomnia, anxiety, sweating, loose bowels ect..... If this was the 20's with Al Capone & Prohibition you would of committed illegal acts by consuming alcohol. IMO chronic alcohol drinking is no longer even socially acceptable. DUI is now considered anti-social type behavior.
Its_me_jen
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Salina, Ks
Posts: 8,547
Originally Posted by TheEnd
I was sharing my story today at the meeting, when some old timer with many years of sobriety blew up and stormed out, because I had mentioned drugs, oh and apparently I was sharing too long for him....LOL....... It's not like I was the first speaker to do that.............I calmly said, I'm almost done and then continued my share. This isn't the first time he's done something like that.
Tons of people came up to me at the end and told me they appreciated my story, so I'm not going to worry about it. I guess you can't please everyone.
Anyway, it was good. Glad I finally stepped up to the plate!!
Tons of people came up to me at the end and told me they appreciated my story, so I'm not going to worry about it. I guess you can't please everyone.
Anyway, it was good. Glad I finally stepped up to the plate!!
Just has a reference, here's the OPs post. May be it could get back on topic?
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Join Date: Mar 2012
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Originally Posted by jojoba
Well, the program teaches that alcoholism is unique and different from other addictions.
Of course, you don't know why, since you keep referring to what the 'literature' states rather than what your experience states. In the meantime, people who actually do have experience with more than one substance are telling you the exact opposite. It's certainly your prerogative to form your own opinions, but I'll give you my opinion right now - closing your mind off to the experience of others isn't the best way to find answers in life.
If you wish to argue that AA's purpose is better served by focusing on alcohol alone, then I won't fault you for that. You may very well be right, even though I personally believe otherwise. But this 'alcohol is different' view is not only arrogant & insulting, it's just plain wrong.
If it aids in your recovery to believe the way you do, however, more power to you. But I don't see how it can. Like Miami said above so very eloquently, you're cutting yourself off to a whole world of experience that you otherwise might benefit from.
I realize AA is spiritually-based, but it seems like it's become a form of religion for some, where just like any other you can side-step rational debate by simply stating "That's what the book says."
Member
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Merritt Island, Fl
Posts: 1,164
I believe that Alcohol is just one of many problems faced by Alcoholics, and not even one of the top five. Alcohol is introduced into my body long after many other issues come to a head. At least for me that is. I am an Addict, but go only to AA. Actually, in my area, I dont know many AA's that didnt abuse other substances. Some still do. Minding my business is a full time job. Just sayin...
Member
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 142
Originally Posted by GrowingDaily
Second time you've said this, and I'm still asking why.
Of course, you don't know why, since you keep referring to what the 'literature' states rather than what your experience states. In the meantime, people who actually do have experience with more than one substance are telling you the exact opposite. It's certainly your prerogative to form your own opinions, but I'll give you my opinion right now - closing your mind off to the experience of others isn't the best way to find answers in life.
If you wish to argue that AA's purpose is better served by focusing on alcohol alone, then I won't fault you for that. You may very well be right, even though I personally believe otherwise. But this 'alcohol is different' view is not only arrogant & insulting, it's just plain wrong.
If it aids in your recovery to believe the way you do, however, more power to you. But I don't see how it can. Like Miami said above so very eloquently, you're cutting yourself off to a whole world of experience that you otherwise might benefit from.
I realize AA is spiritually-based, but it seems like it's become a form of religion for some, where just like any other you can side-step rational debate by simply stating "That's what the book says."
Of course, you don't know why, since you keep referring to what the 'literature' states rather than what your experience states. In the meantime, people who actually do have experience with more than one substance are telling you the exact opposite. It's certainly your prerogative to form your own opinions, but I'll give you my opinion right now - closing your mind off to the experience of others isn't the best way to find answers in life.
If you wish to argue that AA's purpose is better served by focusing on alcohol alone, then I won't fault you for that. You may very well be right, even though I personally believe otherwise. But this 'alcohol is different' view is not only arrogant & insulting, it's just plain wrong.
If it aids in your recovery to believe the way you do, however, more power to you. But I don't see how it can. Like Miami said above so very eloquently, you're cutting yourself off to a whole world of experience that you otherwise might benefit from.
I realize AA is spiritually-based, but it seems like it's become a form of religion for some, where just like any other you can side-step rational debate by simply stating "That's what the book says."
I have to remember my best thinking got me here.
Member
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,947
That drug addiction and alcoholism has many similarities... is not really the issue here. It does, absolutely, no one can argue that, at least intuitively and by my own personal experience...
AA is for alcoholics. We, at AA, share about our problems as they relate to alcohol. Full Stop...
Some people in AA have a higher tolerance than others for shares that mention experience with substances other than alcohol. The old timer in question (remember the OP) has a very low tolerance for such shares.
I had to remind myself we aren't in the 12 step forum. If you are a member of AA and have experience in sponsorship, meeting attendance, all that... you get it. If not, well, you may not, get it... This isn't about whether alcoholism shares attributes with addiction. It does... duh.
It's about an outburst at an AA meeting
AA is for alcoholics. We, at AA, share about our problems as they relate to alcohol. Full Stop...
Some people in AA have a higher tolerance than others for shares that mention experience with substances other than alcohol. The old timer in question (remember the OP) has a very low tolerance for such shares.
I had to remind myself we aren't in the 12 step forum. If you are a member of AA and have experience in sponsorship, meeting attendance, all that... you get it. If not, well, you may not, get it... This isn't about whether alcoholism shares attributes with addiction. It does... duh.
It's about an outburst at an AA meeting
1000 Post Club
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Midwest USA
Posts: 2,284
There are very few "pure alcoholics" under 35 these days. People, along with AA have to adjust to the times. In fact we use to have a AA/NA titled meeting that had to be taken out of the AA directory after a huge fight. Its 2012, World War 2 and Prohibition has ended and AA has to adjust to survive. I'm grateful that, if I have to, I can talk about my "dope" problem at my local AA meetings.
L'il fighter
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Mississauga, Ontario
Posts: 297
Originally Posted by jojoba
I just don't think someone with pot issues can understand the degradation of the disease of alcoholism. They haven't lived it.
Member
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Richmond,Va.
Posts: 183
We in AA can't be all things to all people.We have Traditions to ensure we don't get off track and try to do that.We talk about alcoholism and the 12 steps of recovery.
You will hear a lot of nonsense in AA meetings,the person that said all addictions were the same was talking nonsense.
Yes,I have empathy for the addict who still suffers but unless they are an alcoholic also then they do not belong in a closed meeting of AA.
It is a privilege to sit in a closed meeting of AA,always remember that.
Cheers,Steve
You will hear a lot of nonsense in AA meetings,the person that said all addictions were the same was talking nonsense.
Yes,I have empathy for the addict who still suffers but unless they are an alcoholic also then they do not belong in a closed meeting of AA.
It is a privilege to sit in a closed meeting of AA,always remember that.
Cheers,Steve
1000 Post Club
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Midwest USA
Posts: 2,284
My experience is that I wouldn't use drugs unless I was already drinking. Alcohol gave me the motivation to venture into the "seedy neighborhoods" to purchase drugs. Cocaine allowed me to not stumble so much because of my alcohol intoxication. I really can't distinguish between the two. There very much intertwined.
Member
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 142
Originally Posted by winslynn
We in AA can't be all things to all people.We have Traditions to ensure we don't get off track and try to do that.We talk about alcoholism and the 12 steps of recovery.
You will hear a lot of nonsense in AA meetings,the person that said all addictions were the same was talking nonsense.
Yes,I have empathy for the addict who still suffers but unless they are an alcoholic also then they do not belong in a closed meeting of AA.
It is a privilege to sit in a closed meeting of AA,always remember that.
Cheers,Steve
You will hear a lot of nonsense in AA meetings,the person that said all addictions were the same was talking nonsense.
Yes,I have empathy for the addict who still suffers but unless they are an alcoholic also then they do not belong in a closed meeting of AA.
It is a privilege to sit in a closed meeting of AA,always remember that.
Cheers,Steve
Member
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 142
Originally Posted by Justfor1
My experience is that I wouldn't use drugs unless I was already drinking. Alcohol gave me the motivation to venture into the "seedy neighborhoods" to purchase drugs. Cocaine allowed me to not stumble so much because of my alcohol intoxication. I really can't distinguish between the two. There very much intertwined.
If someone is only addicted to drugs and never had a booze problem, I have no idea why they would even want to go to AA instead of NA. I wouldn't go to NA for my alcohol problem.
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