jojoba

Mark75:
I have to disagree. Drugs were largely a non-issue until it was pushed by Straight Inc. and these other rehabs in the late '70s and '80s. But treatment centers are outside entities and have no connection with the Program as far as I'm concerned.


But somewhere people got confused between what the rehabs said and what the program said. I consider that development one of the great tragedies of the last century. The treatment industry has dumbed down and diluted recovery remarkably. Now celebrities are checking into "rehab" for using the n-word at a comedy club, and people are making buffoons of themselves on Dr. Drew to revive their tired careers? Really?

GrowingDaily

I think a better approach would be to explain to them that since alcohol & drugs share similar, if not exactly the same, mechanisms of addiction, expecting to achieve long-term sobriety while reinforcing addictive patterns with other psychoactive substances is a pipe dream (pun intended), and a waste of everyone's time.

Mark75

This has been an interesting thread with lots of side tracks...

Jojoba... There is the singleness of purpose of AA and you will get no argument from me, as we've seen we are more or less on the same page.

People trying to have a spiritual awakening and getting recovered are doing themselves a great disservice if they are using illicit drugs... My point here is not a political one, ie what effect rehabs and celebrities have had on AA, rather it's about the individual who is trying to get recovered from alcoholism.

Justfor1

This advice could kill people. I was told this by a "old-timer" when I first came to AA. I thought, "cool, as long as I don't drink I can keep getting sobriety chip." I began snorting heroin in the morning & coming to the afternoon meetings nodding out, higher than a kite. I had never done heroin prior to this. My eyes would look like tiny little pinholes at meetings. Thankfully, another senior member told me that I needed to stay off all illegal drugs as well.

miamifella

"The program is perfect."

I think that anytime anyone believes that any human institution is perfect, that is a dangerous thing.

But that explains a lot of what I read here.

jojoba

So you decided to start using heroin because of what some oldtimer said? And that is his (or the Programs?) fault? No offense but adults are responsible for their own decisions and actions.

jojoba

My sponsees are adults--I don't sponsor underage people. They are not "pigeons" or "babies". I don't tell them go to X number of meetings or don't do this or that. My only rules are 1) don't drink 2) give praise to God 3) read the BB every night 4) don't read the heterodox literature (or if you do don't talk to me about it).

miamifella

Jojoba--Am I understanding this. You are okay with your sponsees using drugs other than alcohol? You call that sobriety?

GrowingDaily

So as long as they pray and abstain from drinking, they can shoot up meth, pop pills, and trip on acid (just as long as they don't talk about it!), and you consider that a job well done?

And let's not forget to stay away from the 'heterodox literature'! God forbid they dare to turn to other potential sources of education and help. This is beginning to sound like the Church of Hear No Evil.

This thread most certainly delivers.

jojoba

My role is to uphold AA's primary purpose. If I see that they're acting erratically and not reading the BB, like my sponsee who converted to Scientology, I will tell them to move on. But whatever else the sponsee does is between him and God if I'm not aware of it.

miamifella

I guess we can all see what a "perfect" means to jojoba.

GrowingDaily

Nor do you want to be aware of it. You've made that abundantly clear.

Unfortunately, by willfully ignoring issues your sponsees may have with other substances, you're directly undermining their ability to maintain long-term alcohol sobriety. What's the point of a sober crack addict? A dry meth head? Is that a product you take pride in producing (even if such creatures did exist)?

Perhaps you're a great sponsor for people who ONLY have problems with alcohol. But for those who struggle with more than one addiction, or even use other drugs causally (for now) you're doing them a HUGE disservice by just covering your ears every time the subject comes up. At least have the common courtesy to point them towards someone who cares & understands instead of giving them the false illusion of hope. You're not doing anyone a favor by ignoring their drug use. You're hurting them.

The last thing I'll say on this thread - because frankly it's making me a little angry: In this one thread, you've done more to turn me away from the concept of AA than anyone or anything else possibly could have. I'm sure I'm not unique here. So - job well done! You won't have to worry about people like myself disrupting your precious institution. Maybe I'll see if Tom Cruz has the answers.

Asta.

TheEnd

Wow this thread has really transformed into something out of the Twilight Zone. Back to the original message. To clarify some things, I was addicted to alcohol and drugs, so it would be impossible to tell my story without mentioning both. To even try such a thing, would lose its authenticity and purpose.

Ok.....now on to this new issue. So you think it's Ok for your sponsee to use mind altering substances as long as they are not drinking. If that's your message, please stop sponsoring people immediately. To not ask, to not care about this issue is dangerous territory and you're playing with someone's life. And no AA is not perfect. There is nothing perfect about anything created by man.

wheresthefun

Did I say, this thread is rich?

Yup, I did, I did say this thread is rich.

Justfor1

jojo, in a sense I do blame the oldtimer who told me that as long as I don't drink alcohol, I'm sober in AA. I was looking for a loophole & found an easy one that he presented. Luckily, it was a brief thing with heroin & I began using a lot of caution when listening to things in the rooms of AA. I think that the primary purpose of AA is to become a better person. And someone abusing drugs yet abstaining from alcohol is not doing that. I'm so glad that in my area I am free to talk about drugs or even purple unicorns if it effects my sobriety. Doing drugs will lead me back to my "drug of choice", alcohol.

DayTrader

When Bill and Bob used the term "sober" it meant more than just not drinking.......it meant "of sane mind and sound judgement." I personally don't see much sanity or soundness in using street drugs. That's probably why Dr Bob quit using them when he got sober...

jojoba

My sponsees would be quite upset if I did that....

Some people here are not reading for comprehension. I don't tell my sponsees to "use". I tell them before I sponsor them that if I'm at their house and I see a roach on the table I'll have to fire them. And that this is the first and last time we ever talk about drugs--if they bring up drugs (including meds) with me again, I'll fire them too. They have to use their own judgement from then on. If I don't see the roach then nothing ever happened as far as I'm concerned.

The whole point of this is that I don't want to hear about outside issues.

BullDog777

that specifically is the root issue that TheEnd was dealing with...someone who didn't wan't to listen to anything outside of booze.

60 years ago, drugs weren't nearly the problem they are today and by and large they all go hand and hand. MOST of the people i come across in AA are cross addicted.

Personally, i identify more with drug addicts than i do alcoholics, but i drank a half a gallon of booze almost daily.

you have to speak to your own personal truth and TheEnd did that.

It's imo a generational gap some of the old timers can't appreciate because they simply can't identify with it. I fought that alot when i went to AA. There were alot of old timers that would tell me after the meetings to keep the drug s#it out of the room. i told them i couldn't and wouldn't because it WAS a large part of my story. i earned my seat in that room the same way they did and nobody was gonna tell me what i could and couldn't speak to. Most of them respected that.

miamifella

I think that we are really looking at addiction to alcohol in different ways here.

I know I think of any addiction as something that affects the entire person. You cannot say "This part of my life is alcoholic, but these other parts are not." Addiction affects the entire wiring system.

jojoba feels differently. Alcoholism is a discrete part of the psyche and can be divorced from other areas of one's life in his view. It may be true for him--it could be that he caught his disease before it progressed far enough to infiltrate everything.

I know that my disease affects how I drive, how I pay my bills, how I eat, how I do everything. People come to me for advice on addictions/alcoholism and I know that I cannot set limits on what they share with me, because the disease does not set limits.

Compassion and a sense of right-and-wrong tell me that I have to do whatever I can to help. I am glad that my program is strong enough that I do not have to limit what I hear, what I read, and who I help. But I understand this is because I had gone a long side the other way--it is the result of my own experience.

Getting back to the outburst at the meeting--I think I understand it better. I used to be very intolerant of drunks and druggies. I kicked out roommates who used drugs. I broke off friendships with people who got drunk. I was like the person at the meeting--I saw the drunks and druggies as separate from me and got furious with them.

Then I became an addict myself and no longer had that kind of outburst.

I was not much of a drinker. I hated pot. I am scared of needles. But I do not think of myself as different than the alcoholics, pot-smokers and heroin users I have met since entering recovery. My experience does not let me separate myself.

Maybe we should be happy for the folks who have these outbursts. Maybe they are the lucky ones, since they never had to discover the humility and compassion that comes from bad experience.

Mark75

Thanx for your clarification jojoba. I understood that you did not endorse or approve of drug use and it's just that you don't want to hear about it... period, one way or another.

That is fine.

My understanding that we discuss our problems as they relate to alcohol. There is plenty of wiggle room there, so where the line is drawn is up to the individual sponsor and sponsee. Cool.

I work with a guy, not as a sponsor but just one of his support group. He crashed and burned in a relapse and got a bad DUI which will cause him much misery. I can understand his need to talk about it. I never got a DUI, thank God, so I know very little about it... I'd rather talk with him about the solution... that helps both of us. If he needs support with his DUI, maybe his sponsor has some experience with that.

But if I were his sponsor, should I fire him? Since I know nothing of it? Would it be better for him if I did, especially if he needed a lot of help with it?

Hey... thanx for your service to alcoholics. I get it.