Cantonian

Sometimes willpower alone is just not enough, we're all unique, just like everybody else

Noro

This kind of thinking has always given me false hope that, "Maybe this time, I really can moderate my drinking." I've tried it many times over the course of three years, and I always end up a drunk again. My drinking only got worse. I remember a South Park episode I saw a while back where the character Randy gets a DUI, and the main message of the episode was that it's not a disease and that all one needs it discipline to moderate their drinking. I thought, "Oh yeah, maybe." Unfortunately, it gets to the point where discipline does not apply.

LaFemme

It took me a heck of a lot of willpower at the end to keep drinking poison that made me sick but I certainly did.

He doesn't understand so just come here and vent to your hearts content....we get it

ForeverDecember

It's like telling an asthmatic they don't have the will power to breath properly.

Actually, a better example, it's like telling a person with depression to "Just be happy". Just because you can't physically see the disease doesn't mean it's not there.

ForeverDecember

You are the exception, not the rule.

Perhaps your addiction wasn't physical, and you weren't physically an alcoholic.

If addiction is all about will power than there would be no physical component to the disease, it would be all mental.

LeeK

Will power is a very small part of alcoholism. The physical addiction is a huge part, as well as the mental illness. I love when people say, "all you have to do is cut back! Don't you have any will power?" Tell that to me and all the other alcoholics who experience hellish withdrawal, tremors, vomiting, insomnia, seizures. And that doesn't even touch on the mental/emotional aspect of withdrawal. Does that sound like something a little more will power could fix?

Will power is part of staying sober though, but it's not all. Not even close.

Alcoholism (or any drug addiction) is not a mere lack of will power. I hate it when people say it's that simple

Terminally Unique

You have this backwards.

Terminally Unique

Here's a question... I'm not saying that quitting is about will power, but if it weren't about free will on a large level, how come so many addictoids want to be "held accountable" or otherwise take deterrents like Antabuse? We have many examples of this right here on SR. If free will had nothing to do with it, then surely no amount of "accountability" or Antabuse would deter anyone, no? They would get drunk as a skunk regardless.

ForeverDecember

This isn't a black and white argument, it's not a matter of "you have no will power and can only quit through a program", the issue is about will power alone not being enough. I don't think anyone's strictly said it's not about free will - but to the original post - it's not just a matter of will power. People commit suicide over this stuff, because they can't quit... this is not just a matter of not being strong enough to say no, there are hellish, complicated issues at work. This may be a relatively pointless debate on a thread in a nice safe environment here on SR, but remember the bigger picture - there are people dying over this right now... I cannot accept that it is just a simple matter that these people didn't have the will to save their lives. There's much more going on, and it's insulting to the many good people who have died from this and other addictions.

Think of it in another situation: Domestic violence. Women and men all over the globe remain in horribly damaging relationships because, for whatever reason, they don't feel that they can leave. They stay in these relationships while their children are being damaged from witnessing it. They know they need to get out and can't seem to. There are thousands of people in this situation, and worse. You wouldn't tell them that they are weak-willed for staying in the relationship and anyone who did would be showing an incredible amount of ignorance. There are clearly other issues at play, it is not a matter of "Well, sally, you deserve what you get because you're the one who chooses to stay there". Anyone with an ounce of sense can see that it's not a matter of choosing to stay; the victim doesn't see the choices at all... even if those choices are obvious to other people looking in from the outside. You can't exercise will when you don't think you have a choice. It's exactly the same with alcohol addiction.

Maybe there are some people who can get through it by using their will power alone, but I think that's a rarity. If it weren't for social consequences many people wouldn't quit, things like needing a job, wanting a relationship, good health etc are all factors that go towards the commitment to be sober, and I count these as factors that HELP an addict achieve sobriety - which are not influenced by will power. These are part and parcel of the process of getting help to stay sober...

If it were just will power then there would be no alcoholics - because we wouldn't allow ourselves to get to the stage that we need to quit alcohol. Yes, you need will power to quit, but no man is an island and you cannot quit drinking or any addiction by will power alone.

To add: If becoming and maintaining sobriety is a matter of will power we wouldn't need SR, or any other programs/theories (AA, AVRT), counsellors, drs, friends, family, etc. We need the support and cannot do this alone.

kanamit

That's an Allen Carr-ism, isn't it? Great stuff!

kanamit

Says who?

I'm not saying anyone on this thread has outright said this but I always find this confusing that a person will make two conflicting statements:

1. Only you can decide if you are an alcoholic.
2. If you quit on your own through willpower, you weren't a proper alcoholic.

Which is it? You can't have your cake and eat it.

ForeverDecember

No point it taking the cake if you can't eat it! 7

If you're able to quit on will power alone I believe either we have different opinions on what "will power alone" means, or that person was not physically addicted. I can call myself an alcoholic and drink 6 beers on a weekend, then miraculously quit. If you consider yourself to have a problem with alcohol then you are an alcoholic. I take nothing away for a commitment to stay sober, but using a label doesn't mean that the physical effects are there.

If it were simple will power and no other influencing factors - if alcohol wasn't physically addictive in other words - I cannot see how people would allow themselves to become addicted.

langkah

He can only go by his own experience, and gave you his opinion on the matter from that.

It just means you're fortunate enough to be married to a normal drinker, something that you should be quite pleased about.

dawnrunner

Arguing about things like this is something I had to avoid like the plague when I was early sober.

It just messed with my head too much. And listening to my (then) husband's many and multifarious views on alcoholism was like nails on a chalkboard.

My suggestion would be: don't engage, just say "mm-hmm" and drift into another room.

Tiggy

Sorry I had to laugh here I have both of these conditions and know exactly what you mean. Many people have no idea what it is like to be addicted to anything and can be terribly judgemental. It hurts when its someone close to you but its your demon and you need to fight it your way. If your hubby sees you making an effort maybe he will come around and give you more support

Linz

I am struggling with alcohol addiction as we speak. I had a phone conversation with my boyfriend just yesterday about "the feeling of needing a drink opposed to just wanting one."
He believes that alcohol CANNOT be an addiction/problem. That there is no "needing" booze.
I believe he is 100% wrong.

I think people who are not addicts wouldn't know... so we need to give them the benefit of the doubt And let them keep on thinking what they think. It's a much prettier illusion than the ones that us alkies have.

Mark75

....

DayTrader

It's both Kanamit. Those two statements aren't in opposition to one another. I dunno that I'd use "proper" but I get what you mean.

The idea with the first one is that nobody's in recovery will proclaim you to be an alkie (they shouldn't anyway). The other point is that regardless what others think, you're going to follow what you believe. I've had ppl in the past tell me I'm NOT an alkie (like my mom, for example). She just didn't understand what alcoholism is and that's ok......she didn't know that she didn't know.

The second line would be more technically correct if it said something like, Certain types of alcoholics cannot quit on their own willpower nor with any other human aid. They simply must rely on a Higher Power. This statement usually starts a firestorm of debate here on SR so I'll leave it at this: some ppl with a drinking problem need a God in their life to solve their drinking problem for them, others don't. The AA Big Book seems to make a distinction between these two types as "hard drinkers" (can quit on their own / under their own power) vs "alcoholics" (can't quit on their own, need God).

vinepest

To a great extent I agree with this. It is indeed complicated, as I mentioned in an earlier post, and it's safe to say that nobody has a perfect understanding of all that's going on in the mind of an alcoholic/addict. But we should still do our best to try to understand what we can.

It seems to me that one of the key problems in quitting drinking is that our will is not constant. In fact it changes from moment to moment---our desires fleeting and malleable. So suppose an alcoholic wills in the morning to never drink, but as the day progresses and his mind wanders perhaps that will transforms into the will to drink! And so he does. Then later the will to stop drinking returns, and he feels bad about flip-flopping on the issue. As this cycle continues, it's only natural for him to become disenchanted.

But our will can be influenced. So if we find ourselves in a cycle of flip-flopping problem then we can use our resources, say at time T, where we have the will to quit drinking to influence ourselves in the future, say at time S, where we otherwise anticipate a failure of the will. There are lots of things we can do to accomplish this. For instance we can put ourselves in a situation where it is difficult to drink, e.g. by hanging around sober people. Also, we can force ourselves to think through the pros and cons of drinking, so that the reasons to not drink are fresh in our memory and hard to overlook. And despite my skepticism, maybe even going to an AA meeting helps you reinforce your desire to quit drinking. Etc.

Anyway, my main point here is that it helps to be able to identify a problem and form a preventative plan to address it. We shouldn't be afraid to do that because it contradicts a slick-sounding slogan or mantra, or some revered book.

Well obviously it's important to be tactful in our criticism. We don't want to be cruel or callous, but rather we need to be sensitive to the emotions of the alcoholic (or, in the case of domestic abuse, the victim). On the other hand, we do want to help persuade them to make a good decision, do we not? Indeed it's hard to see how it should cause problems to reassure a domestic abuse victim by telling her she has the power to leave if only she makes the decision to do so, and by offering assistance should she make that decision. That doesn't mean we should scold the victim for making the wrong decision, but how does it help to pretend it's not, in the end, still her decision?

Oh, of course! The desire to quit drinking is almost always instrumental for achieving other ends. But that doesn't mean the will has to play a lesser role.

I'm sorry, but this just isn't true. There are lots of examples of people who have quit by the power of their will. I'm one of them! And I'm sure there are still more people out there who have quit by the power of their will without realizing it (presumably in large part because they are told again and again that such things are impossible).

Also recall my exercise example. Just because something is a matter of willpower doesn't mean it's a shoe-in. Willpower isn't so cheap or plentiful as that!

DayTrader

I'm with ya Linz. I used to think all addictions were just for weak people.......for folks who were just to darn lazy or stupid to get to work with the business of fixing their lives back up. I could go on but you get the point.

When I became one of "them," all those old beliefs and prejudices came back to haunt me because seeking help, admitting I had a problem, heck.....even SEEING that I had a problem, were all nearly impossible for me since they were in opposition to ooooold beliefs I had. And you know us alkies, some of us die rather than admit we're wrong.

What's really happening though is that he's making a statement based upon his understanding but not his personal experience. It's like asking someone to explain child birth who's not actually experienced it.....or asking someone to explain sex who hasn't experienced it. Knowledge is one thing......but actually going through it gives you a whole slew of new perspectives.