My husband thinks its "a matter of will power"...
Member
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,947
I never had a problem with will power... if I wanted to do something, I did it... If you didn't want me to do something, then you could be damn well be sure that I'd do it.
I was a self will run riot. Plenty of will to do what I wanted... I found all sorts of ways to get the job done.
No, it was something deeper.
I was a self will run riot. Plenty of will to do what I wanted... I found all sorts of ways to get the job done.
No, it was something deeper.
Thriving sober since 12/18/08
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Orlando, FL
Posts: 3,115
3+ years sober here, and my husband STILL thinks I could control it if I started again. I brush him off..he has absolutely no idea, and I don't have the energy (or ability) to convince him otherwise. I think it's partially that he can't imagine that I do/did have such a 'problem', and partially that he simply doesn't understand how addiction works. I let him be as blissfully unaware as he wants, and work on my recovery within myself.
Guest
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 364
Originally Posted by DayTrader 
The second line would be more technically correct if it said something like, Certain types of alcoholics cannot quit on their own willpower nor with any other human aid. They simply must rely on a Higher Power. This statement usually starts a firestorm of debate here on SR so I'll leave it at this: some ppl with a drinking problem need a God in their life to solve their drinking problem for them, others don't. The AA Big Book seems to make a distinction between these two types as "hard drinkers" (can quit on their own / under their own power) vs "alcoholics" (can't quit on their own, need God).
I think we underestimate just how strong the human will can be. I think of the boxer Michael Watson who was told he would never walk again after being paralysed in a fight. Despite his prognosis that he would never walk again and protestations by his physician through sheer will he went on to 'run' the London marathon by stubbornly refusing to let his accident mar his life.
I myself do not have strong willpower and can only look at people like Michael Watson as a heroes for exercising the will that they do.
Originally Posted by Peter Hamlyn, the consultant neurosurgeon who operated on Watson
I think back to those first days, and the milestone moments. The first eight months were so depressing. He couldn't hear, couldn't speak, couldn't walk. Slowly, he clawed it all back. So extraordinary
Originally Posted by Christopher Reeve
I refuse to allow a disability to determine how I live my life
Member
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 41
Listening in AA has taught me that there are several different "varieties" of this ... syndrome? Illness?
For me, I never crave a drink or to be drunk. When I drink, it is clear that there is some kind of biological effect. My reaction to alcohol is not like most other people's. I get drunk fast and easy. It also makes me angry. The next day I have hangovers that are like death.
I also saw these things in myself clearly and after a DWI in 1998, I stopped drinking for 9 years on my own. I "just" realized that I was not able to drink. I can't handle it. It is not for me, and it hurts me and everyone around me.
I'm sober 7 months now after a 3 year relapse. I made the same mistake a lot of us make - I tried to see if I was still an alcoholic. That would be a yes.
For me, it was about correcting my thinking and deciding not to drink, which is an act of will.
But that's me. As I said, AA taught me that while we have a lot in common, one size does not fit all.
For me, I never crave a drink or to be drunk. When I drink, it is clear that there is some kind of biological effect. My reaction to alcohol is not like most other people's. I get drunk fast and easy. It also makes me angry. The next day I have hangovers that are like death.
I also saw these things in myself clearly and after a DWI in 1998, I stopped drinking for 9 years on my own. I "just" realized that I was not able to drink. I can't handle it. It is not for me, and it hurts me and everyone around me.
I'm sober 7 months now after a 3 year relapse. I made the same mistake a lot of us make - I tried to see if I was still an alcoholic. That would be a yes.
For me, it was about correcting my thinking and deciding not to drink, which is an act of will.
But that's me. As I said, AA taught me that while we have a lot in common, one size does not fit all.
L'il fighter
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Mississauga, Ontario
Posts: 297
For the record I'm not an AAer, and so far have only seen an addict counsellor about once a week.
I think people here are getting their backs up over semantics. Regardless of the outside support an addict is getting (i.e. AA, Alanon, etc), it really *is* about willpower, is it not? Ultimately it is the addict's choice and responsibility to stay sober. I think vinepest hit the nail on the head in describing the different preventative measures (including programs) one takes in order to stay sober, and how it ultimately stems from one's willpower and dedication to sobriety.
I don't think anyone here has suggested that going to AA means you don't have as much willpower as someone who got sober without it. It's just different means to the same end.
And maybe I'm reading the attitudes here a bit wrong, but I feel there's a hanging implication that those who were able to get sober without a program aren't real alcoholics. Or maybe that's *me* getting defensive.
I think people here are getting their backs up over semantics. Regardless of the outside support an addict is getting (i.e. AA, Alanon, etc), it really *is* about willpower, is it not? Ultimately it is the addict's choice and responsibility to stay sober. I think vinepest hit the nail on the head in describing the different preventative measures (including programs) one takes in order to stay sober, and how it ultimately stems from one's willpower and dedication to sobriety.
I don't think anyone here has suggested that going to AA means you don't have as much willpower as someone who got sober without it. It's just different means to the same end.
And maybe I'm reading the attitudes here a bit wrong, but I feel there's a hanging implication that those who were able to get sober without a program aren't real alcoholics. Or maybe that's *me* getting defensive.
Member
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Miami, FL
Posts: 1,701
I am not trying to be a smartass, but what is the difference between 12-step recovery and willpower? People say they pray or they imagine what the future would be if they drank---but ultimately, they just decide not to drink.
They may have some techniques to help them and friends to commiserate after. But ultimately, their recovery comes from each day choosing not to drink or use. No one else makes that decision for them. If they really wanted they could drink but choose not to.
How is that NOT willpower?
They may have some techniques to help them and friends to commiserate after. But ultimately, their recovery comes from each day choosing not to drink or use. No one else makes that decision for them. If they really wanted they could drink but choose not to.
How is that NOT willpower?
Guest
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 364
Originally Posted by vinepest
Consider a typical AA-goer who is unhappy drinking, makes a decision to "try" to quit, and then gets involved with AA. Suppose that this person is ultimately successful---that he does quit, and stays sober for the remainder of his life.
It seems to me that if we say of this person that he could not stop drinking of his own will, we will necessarily be employing figurative language. Taken literally, such a statement would be false. Indeed it was his decision to stop drinking, his decision to go to AA, and at any given moment where he considers drinking versus not drinking, his decision to opt for not drinking. This is not to say his will is not influenced by outside sources which support him in his sobriety. But in the end it is still his desire, his decision.
I suggest we limit our use of figurative language which downplays this force of will. After all (ignoring for the moment unusual exceptions such as the criminal whose will is frustrated by incarceration), it is not literally true that we do not quit of our own willpower. In fact we do! Only we know our will is influenced by outside sources, and so by placing ourselves in the right situations we can help make sure our will accords as much as possible with sobriety.
In short, we should avoid figurative expressions which might obscure this point, and instead strive to be clear and literal in our use of language.
It seems to me that if we say of this person that he could not stop drinking of his own will, we will necessarily be employing figurative language. Taken literally, such a statement would be false. Indeed it was his decision to stop drinking, his decision to go to AA, and at any given moment where he considers drinking versus not drinking, his decision to opt for not drinking. This is not to say his will is not influenced by outside sources which support him in his sobriety. But in the end it is still his desire, his decision.
I suggest we limit our use of figurative language which downplays this force of will. After all (ignoring for the moment unusual exceptions such as the criminal whose will is frustrated by incarceration), it is not literally true that we do not quit of our own willpower. In fact we do! Only we know our will is influenced by outside sources, and so by placing ourselves in the right situations we can help make sure our will accords as much as possible with sobriety.
In short, we should avoid figurative expressions which might obscure this point, and instead strive to be clear and literal in our use of language.
11/11/07
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 73
Originally Posted by kanamit
Too true. I think the AA doctrine of powerlessness, while well-meaning, does more harm than good, as does the disease concept. It's almost like a get-out-of-jail-free card to drink again.
Something I wrote recently:
"Anyway, one of the most common criticisms is with respect to the first step and it's 'promotion' of powerlessness.
For myself it, at first, presented a bit of a conundrum...If I am powerless how can I "beat" it?
I can't beat alcoholism as I've come to learn. It is a "daily reprieve" what I can do is recover from the power alcoholism wields over me as a practicing alcoholic...Yes, there is no doubt that as a practicing alcoholic, I am powerless over alcohol, it makes my life more than unmanageable...it made it a horror-fest that at times I contemplated ending.
But, as a recovering alcoholic ( A major distinction as far as I'm concerned) admitting my powerlessness over alcohol instills me with an even greater power to affect my recovery for a few reasons.
One, the power of the fellowship, my recovery is based in a community and we all share the same goal.
Two, I have the tools and steps written down in clear and concise language, all I need do is follow this simple program...
For myself it, at first, presented a bit of a conundrum...If I am powerless how can I "beat" it?
I can't beat alcoholism as I've come to learn. It is a "daily reprieve" what I can do is recover from the power alcoholism wields over me as a practicing alcoholic...Yes, there is no doubt that as a practicing alcoholic, I am powerless over alcohol, it makes my life more than unmanageable...it made it a horror-fest that at times I contemplated ending.
But, as a recovering alcoholic ( A major distinction as far as I'm concerned) admitting my powerlessness over alcohol instills me with an even greater power to affect my recovery for a few reasons.
One, the power of the fellowship, my recovery is based in a community and we all share the same goal.
Two, I have the tools and steps written down in clear and concise language, all I need do is follow this simple program...
On the contrary, accepting the disease model, recognizes that there is treatment and puts the responsibility for seeking it on the diseased.
As far as it being a "concept" well:
H-30.997 Dual Disease Classification of Alcoholism
The AMA reaffirms its policy endorsing the dual classification of alcoholism under both the psychiatric and medical
sections of the International Classification of Diseases. (Res. 22, I-79; Reaffirmed: CLRPD Rep. B, I-89; Reaffirmed:
CLRPD Rep. B, I-90; Reaffirmed by CSA Rep. 14, A-97)
H-30.958 Ethyl Alcohol and Nicotine as Addictive Drugs
The AMA
1. identifies alcohol and nicotine as drugs of addiction which are gateways to the use of other drugs by young
people;
2. urges all physicians to intervene as early as possible with their patients who use tobacco products and have
problems related to alcohol use, so as to prevent adverse health effects and reduce the probability of long-term
addition;
3. encourages physicians who treat patients with alcohol problems to be alert to the high probability of co-existing
nicotine problems; and
4. reaffirms that individuals who suffer from drug addiction in any of its manifestations are persons with a treatable
disease. (Amended Res. 28,
A-91; Reaffirmed by CSA Rep. 14, A-97)
The AMA reaffirms its policy endorsing the dual classification of alcoholism under both the psychiatric and medical
sections of the International Classification of Diseases. (Res. 22, I-79; Reaffirmed: CLRPD Rep. B, I-89; Reaffirmed:
CLRPD Rep. B, I-90; Reaffirmed by CSA Rep. 14, A-97)
H-30.958 Ethyl Alcohol and Nicotine as Addictive Drugs
The AMA
1. identifies alcohol and nicotine as drugs of addiction which are gateways to the use of other drugs by young
people;
2. urges all physicians to intervene as early as possible with their patients who use tobacco products and have
problems related to alcohol use, so as to prevent adverse health effects and reduce the probability of long-term
addition;
3. encourages physicians who treat patients with alcohol problems to be alert to the high probability of co-existing
nicotine problems; and
4. reaffirms that individuals who suffer from drug addiction in any of its manifestations are persons with a treatable
disease. (Amended Res. 28,
A-91; Reaffirmed by CSA Rep. 14, A-97)
Alcoholism (Alcohol Dependence)
The World Health Organization (WHO) acknowledged
Alcoholism as a serious medical problem in 1951,
and the American Medical Association
declared alcoholism as a treatable illness in 1956.
Alcoholism is a chronic, progressive disease that manifests itself with symptoms that affect one physically, mentally, emotionally, spiritually and socially.
The World Health Organization (WHO) acknowledged
Alcoholism as a serious medical problem in 1951,
and the American Medical Association
declared alcoholism as a treatable illness in 1956.
Alcoholism is a chronic, progressive disease that manifests itself with symptoms that affect one physically, mentally, emotionally, spiritually and socially.
To establish a more precise use of the term alcoholism, a 23-member multidisciplinary committee of the National Council on Alcoholism and Drug Dependence and the American Society of Addiction Medicine conducted a 2-year study of the definition of alcoholism in the light of current concepts. The goals of the committee were to create by consensus a revised definition that is (1) scientifically valid, (2) clinically useful, and (3) understandable by the general public. Therefore, the committee agreed to define alcoholism as a primary, chronic disease with genetic, psychosocial, and environmental factors influencing its development and manifestations. The disease is often progressive and fatal. It is characterized by impaired control over drinking, preoccupation with the drug alcohol, use of alcohol despite adverse consequences, and distortions in thinking, most notably denial. Each of these symptoms may be continuous or periodic.
MINEr
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Bay Area, Ca
Posts: 505
Originally Posted by sugarbear1
How does he feel about menstrual cramps? Childbirth? Wait, he has no direct experience....
To the OP, addiction is physically hardwired into the brain, our recovery work keeps our thoughts off those paths. Will power is a very small part of that.
Member
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 3,677
Cantonian, and others interested in alcoholism as a disease:
The main problem I have with the disease concept of alcoholism is the diagnostic criteria. It isn't so much an argument of whether alcoholism is a disease or not, but the defining or diagnostic characteristics of it.
To me, diagnosing onself as an alcoholic makes about as much sense as diagnosing oneself with cancer. There is no point to such diagnoses without a "treatment plan" to go with it.
I am okay with the self-diagnosis if one seeks out the treatment. I am not okay with the self-identification with the diagnosis if it just becomes another excuse to continue with the behaviors that surround the alcoholic condition.
Personally, I don't much care what the diagnosis is. The treatment remains the same -- do not drink. However you get there is not the point. The point is that the behavior changes and the drinking stops.
The main problem I have with the disease concept of alcoholism is the diagnostic criteria. It isn't so much an argument of whether alcoholism is a disease or not, but the defining or diagnostic characteristics of it.
To me, diagnosing onself as an alcoholic makes about as much sense as diagnosing oneself with cancer. There is no point to such diagnoses without a "treatment plan" to go with it.
I am okay with the self-diagnosis if one seeks out the treatment. I am not okay with the self-identification with the diagnosis if it just becomes another excuse to continue with the behaviors that surround the alcoholic condition.
Personally, I don't much care what the diagnosis is. The treatment remains the same -- do not drink. However you get there is not the point. The point is that the behavior changes and the drinking stops.
11/11/07
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 73
failedtaper, I'm not sure exactly what you're saying...but as far as self-diagnosis.
The reason that is necessary is that no one will ever get sober if they think they already are...Doctors, wives, husbands, kids can tell an alkie that they're an alcoholic until they're blue in the face, but until an alcoholic's made a "self-diagnosis" nothing will happen, at least not in the long run.
But this point is moot, we as alcoholics will use ANY and EVERY reason/excuse to drink whether we self-identify or not...it's what we do.
Do you really think that those who self-identify and continue to drink wouldn't be drinking otherwise?
ps) love your signature quote!
The reason that is necessary is that no one will ever get sober if they think they already are...Doctors, wives, husbands, kids can tell an alkie that they're an alcoholic until they're blue in the face, but until an alcoholic's made a "self-diagnosis" nothing will happen, at least not in the long run.
I am not okay with the self-identification with the diagnosis if it just becomes another excuse to continue with the behaviors that surround the alcoholic condition.
Do you really think that those who self-identify and continue to drink wouldn't be drinking otherwise?
ps) love your signature quote!
Member
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 3,677
Originally Posted by Cantonian
failedtaper, I'm not sure exactly what you're saying...but as far as self-diagnosis.
The reason that is necessary is that no one will ever get sober if they think they already are...Doctors, wives, husbands, kids can tell an alkie that they're an alcoholic until they're blue in the face, but until an alcoholic's made a "self-diagnosis" nothing will happen, at least not in the long run.
But this point is moot, we as alcoholics will use ANY and EVERY reason/excuse to drink whether we self-identify or not...it's what we do.
Do you really think that those who self-identify and continue to drink wouldn't be drinking otherwise?
The reason that is necessary is that no one will ever get sober if they think they already are...Doctors, wives, husbands, kids can tell an alkie that they're an alcoholic until they're blue in the face, but until an alcoholic's made a "self-diagnosis" nothing will happen, at least not in the long run.
But this point is moot, we as alcoholics will use ANY and EVERY reason/excuse to drink whether we self-identify or not...it's what we do.
Do you really think that those who self-identify and continue to drink wouldn't be drinking otherwise?
This is not quite analgous to obesity, but all the recent studies on obesity show that no matter how hard someone works at taking their weight off, they are going to regain it even if they continue restricting their eating. What follows is sort of a "why bother" mentality.
In other words, to make the analogy, "why bother" to try to stop drinking, if I have a disease that dooms me to failure?
Do you see what I mean?
So, no I don't like the self-identification as an "afflicted" individual.
There is something called a "disability conviction" that I think applies to some people who consider themselves "afflicted" with the disease of alcoholism. If you really believe that, you MAY be dooming yourself to failure, no matter what approach to quitting alcohol you choose to take.
FT
Member
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 1,146
An amazing amount of progress has been made regarding understanding alcoholism, but after thousands of years (5 thousand that we know of) the basic questions of what causes it and what relieves it are still so murky and poorly understood. Maybe someday.
Funny that sober AAs are used as examples on this thread as proof of self-will successes (what a nonsensical concept). As if alcoholics who rely on a power greater than themselves are proof of how effective self-willing sobriety has suddenly become after being worth spit for eons.
If that were remotely true then those AA examples wouldn't crawl back in drunk so often after kidding themselves that they'll be just fine now having not drank for a while and don't have to maintain their spiritual condition. They were the alcoholics who would have gotten sober any old whichway anyway, right?
Those who make the effort to be changed by the steps enough and apply AA principles to how they meet life, deal with their past, view the world, perform inconvenient service for no return, and seek to expand their spiritual understandings get along fine.
Those who figure they are now fine and fixed and are just not going to drink and work more and plan to do good things sometimes and treat people nice and believe they have morphed into something new an amazing most often find their condition begs to differ with their preferred but fanciful beliefs.
Funny that sober AAs are used as examples on this thread as proof of self-will successes (what a nonsensical concept). As if alcoholics who rely on a power greater than themselves are proof of how effective self-willing sobriety has suddenly become after being worth spit for eons.
If that were remotely true then those AA examples wouldn't crawl back in drunk so often after kidding themselves that they'll be just fine now having not drank for a while and don't have to maintain their spiritual condition. They were the alcoholics who would have gotten sober any old whichway anyway, right?
Those who make the effort to be changed by the steps enough and apply AA principles to how they meet life, deal with their past, view the world, perform inconvenient service for no return, and seek to expand their spiritual understandings get along fine.
Those who figure they are now fine and fixed and are just not going to drink and work more and plan to do good things sometimes and treat people nice and believe they have morphed into something new an amazing most often find their condition begs to differ with their preferred but fanciful beliefs.
~sb
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: MD
Posts: 15,967
Sorry about my earlier post, but today I keep it simple. I spent years fighting AA while my drinking became worse along with my consequences.
I simply had zero willpower on a daily basis. My powerlessness was when I bought my six pack and I wanted "just one" to relax with (I deserved one), but once I had a sip, I continued until it was all gone...
Today I haven't had a drink in 34+ weeks.
I know for me, I have willpower as I don't obsess over just one and I don't finnd myself buyinng any (I somehow used to end up at the beer store daily). Today I have more power in not drinking.
People without direct experience can only imagine and assume...
No matter what, try staying stopped for your health.
I simply had zero willpower on a daily basis. My powerlessness was when I bought my six pack and I wanted "just one" to relax with (I deserved one), but once I had a sip, I continued until it was all gone...
Today I haven't had a drink in 34+ weeks.
I know for me, I have willpower as I don't obsess over just one and I don't finnd myself buyinng any (I somehow used to end up at the beer store daily). Today I have more power in not drinking.
People without direct experience can only imagine and assume...
No matter what, try staying stopped for your health.
Encourager In Training
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: KS
Posts: 717
Respect and discretion are advised when proposing those who view life from a more figurative, spiritual looking glass should be more literal. Rather than serving as some universal value assessment of the concept, comparing benign voluntary functions (e.g. getting out of bed) to alcoholic powerlessness is principally an exemplification of the author’s personal disconnect.
There are many types of art that I don’t “get”, so I can construct all manner of simplistic analogies/comparisons/etc for why those types of art are devoid of value. In the end, however, I don’t “get” it.
Speaking of “getting” it and in the interest of fairness, it is folly for those who view life from a more figurative, spiritual looking glass to expect universal acceptance of alcoholic powerlessness.
There are many types of art that I don’t “get”, so I can construct all manner of simplistic analogies/comparisons/etc for why those types of art are devoid of value. In the end, however, I don’t “get” it.
Speaking of “getting” it and in the interest of fairness, it is folly for those who view life from a more figurative, spiritual looking glass to expect universal acceptance of alcoholic powerlessness.
Member
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 108
Originally Posted by Ranger
Respect and discretion are advised when proposing those who view life from a more figurative, spiritual looking glass should be more literal.
Rather than serving as some universal value assessment of the concept, comparing benign voluntary functions (e.g. getting out of bed) to alcoholic powerlessness is principally an exemplification of the author’s personal disconnect.
I suppose if someone just really likes his figurative language, and he doesn't care about communicating clearly and literally, then that's his prerogative. But I think the rest of us deserve to understand what's going on---that the language he uses is non-literal.
Member
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Bethlehem, PA.
Posts: 1,781
Originally Posted by vinepest
I suppose if someone just really likes his figurative language, and he doesn't care about communicating clearly and literally, then that's his prerogative. But I think the rest of us deserve to understand what's going on---that the language he uses is non-literal.
Therein lies the rub, the propositons put forth in most programs ARE MEANT TO BE TAKEN LITERALLY. This is the very reason why I have always believed that the best approach is to take what works for you and leave the rest. Why throw the baby out with the bathwater?
Currently Active Users Viewing this Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
