BackToSquareOne

I'm currently reading the Rational Recovery book and the premise is that alcoholism is a voluntary behavior not a disease. This got me thinking that this is also how society views it, for the most part alcoholics are treated with disdain and disgust. Punishment is doled out in copious amounts to the alcoholic by the courts, employers, even friends and families. Our prisons are loaded with people who committed crimes while intoxicated and overall there is little if any compassion for the alcoholic. When Clinton was president alcoholics were booted off of social security disability, the claim being that it didn't meet the criteria of a disease under SSDI guidlines.

In my mind we'd get a lot further if we, as a society, dealt with the issue with kindness and compassion as opposed to disdain. You really don't see that happening though and I have to wonder if it's viewed as a voluntary behavior why would you treat it any differently?

SSIL75

As an alcoholic, the concept that alcoholism is 'voluntary' is very empowering. I live a very normal life now.

I don't think society adopting that view though would lead to things like getting alcoholics disability $$. But would I live this same normal life if I believed I had a 'disease'?

IDK. these discussions are always a ****_storm here.

BackToSquareOne

I still have mixed views on the topic. Just curious but does anyone know what the viewpoint of Al-Anon is, they seem fairly hostile toward the alcoholic, granted it is often deserved.

blackoutgirl

Great topic! I often think, had I never drank in my whole life would I still be an alcoholic?? No, probably not, but this is a double edged sword. I do feel that I had a predisposition to alcoholism, or addiction...period, which opened up Pandora's box.

However, of the many times that I have let myself down, no one forced alcohol down my throat or make me pick up that first glass. I did it all on my own free will. I did it because I wanted to. And yes, it was ultimately my choice.

I've met a few people that have disability from illness' related to alcoholism and other self destructing behaviors. I'm not sure what the guidelines are for approval or statistics or anything, but it does happen.

I guess it goes along the same path as insurance companies not wanting to cover individuals that smoke cigarrettes, however it has been proven that cigarettes are highly addictive and I've never heard anyone describe someone that smokes as having a disease because they are addicted to cigarettes??? You know??

No one held a cigarette to my mouth and 'made' me smoke. I chose to buy a pack and keep on ruining my lungs, knowing that the consequences could be eventually fatal. I honestly think quitting drinking will be much easier for me than quitting smoking. I cannot count the amount of times that I have tried to quit smoking, there's just too many.

So maybe it's addiction that is the disease and not the means of which the person is addicted. This makes more sense to me. Someone may chose not to drink because alcoholism runs in their family, but be a compulsive overeater resulting in obesity. It's an addiction to food, not a chemical substance per say, but it's still a dependence. Once again, putting the food in their mouths and having the choice to binge or practice portion control.

But really it's not that easy. Once I have a drink of alcohol it's all over. The urge I have to keep drinking is so strong that I become extremely irritated if I can't keep going. It's like something in my body flips a switch and even if I want to stop, I feel like I can't. The same with smoking.

This is a great topic! Hope this didn't seem like rambling. I suppose I have mixed views as well. I have CHOSE not to drink anymore, but I know that if I do, a roller-coaster ride will begin. Kind of like, if I hadn't picked up a cigarette after not smoking for an extended amount of time, I would not have started smoking again.

Start of with a couple of cigs a day and before you know it it's an entire pack a day. I suppose alcohol would be like this too. One drink, two drinks, then a whole bottle.

All it took was one cigarette. All it will take will be one drink.

I enjoyed this thread!

oak

It's a complicated issue.

I think we make lots of choices even with a disease. For example- diabetics can choose to eat well, exercise, and take meds or they can choose not to. Many diseases are strongly influenced by behavior.

I do think you are right that kindness and compassion would help much more than disdain. It would be a much easier world, I think.

I don't have much opinion if alcoholism is a disease. I think it would depend on how one defines disease.
I do think our brains are somehow different; I think there is a physiological reason for alcoholism, although I think there are psychological, spiritual, and social components too.

For me- viewing drinking as a choice helps me say no. I choose not to drink. It feels empowering to me. When I don't think of it as a choice, then I use that belief to justify drinking and not being accountable. (That is just how my mind works. I totally believe that not seeing it as a choice works best for lots of other people.)

Addiction seems to muddy the waters of choice. It's hard to not drink when my brain is activated toward drinking- very hard. But I still look at it as choice.

I think that many criminals, alcoholics, and other groups of people that are marginalized by society have often experienced early childhood trauma (abuse, neglect, hardship). Trauma gets in the way of making good choices for ourselves. I'm curious to know why people make choices that look self-injurious. I think it's a complicated issue.

BackToSquareOne

I read a story a while ago where some European country took a different approach toward addicts/alcoholics convicted of minor crimes and put them into treatment as opposed to prison and the results were very good. In the US we have more people in prison per capita than any country in the world, many for drug/alcohol related offenses. It makes you wonder if we need to find a better way to deal with the issue.

Terminally Unique

Are you suggesting that something needs to be viewed as involuntary for it to be dealt with kindness and compassion, as opposed to disdain? By that logic, if someone views homosexuality as a choice and disapproves, they should be free to let those 'mos really have it. Similarly, if someone disapproves with someone's choice of religion, they should also be free to let them have it. Disease proponents who argue along these lines usually believe that they are showing their superior sense of tolerance and compassion, when in fact, they reveal anything but.

onlythetruth

I couldn't agree more, TU.

Deserto

Blackoutgirl -- thanks for the thoughtful post. I really enjoyed reading it.

TU, you make a great point.

Just in a reading mood at the moment, but looking forward to hearing from others...

BadCompany

Whether it's voluntary behavior or not it is unacceptable behavior and it is a correctable condition. We have no right to ask others to tolerate our poor behavior. We need instead to set aside our search for someone to blame in this situation and step up and correct it.

raindancer11

Oh, I don't know. It's funny(tragic) that images upon images of alcohol making you more fun, social and romantic are projected out to young people and then we whisper "drink responsibly". Frontal cortex development continues into the late 20's, early 30's from what I've read. Well, even after, it seems. So, maybe it's voluntary but it didn't feel like it when I was in active addiction. It felt involuntary until I had enough awareness through direct experience and experience of others here on SR. Even then, I had to suspend doubt and just keep trudging along until I had enough time for the clarity to come through.

lillyknitting

I personally don't believe its a disease, say like cancer or diabetes, but do believe that alcohol is a highly addictive substance, to some people.... I also believe that alcohol is a mentally addictive substance aswell as physically addictive and I can tell myself that it will be ok to just have a couple of drinks. I can then start to convince myself that I need a couple of drinks to ease the stress, make me feel more relaxed, put me in more party/fun/jovial mood etc. All thoughts of the horrors of drinking even just a month ago are out of sight out of mind. If we made ourselves sick on peanuts we wouldn't eat them again, would we?? so why do we consistently drink again and again? this is the mental addiction which is caused by the overpowering addictive quality of the substance. I also wanted to add that since I've not been drinking I've noticed how "addicted" even so called normies are!! its a very subtle and very confusing thing how alcohol has been accepted more and more in our society making people believe that it is normal to drink it at more or less every occasion when, say, my childhood years people did not drink nearly so much, just at Christmas say or special occasions. Hope i'm making sense

Terminally Unique

I'd like to point out that while this statement is technically true, it offers an incomplete picture. Under RR's structural model, addiction is a perverted survival drive, which like other legitimate survival drives, is devoted to the pursuit of pleasure as a means to survival. In other words, the addicted person experiences their drive for drugs as they would their drive for food, water, or sex. Under this model, the cunning resourcefulness and efficiency for obtaining drugs exhibited by addicted people is not entirely surprising.

Sapling

I will never need a drink again...As long as I don't have a drink.

BackToSquareOne

T/U to compare freedom of Religious choice or sexual orientation to alcoholism is ludicrous. Voluntary deviant behavior is for the most part treated with punishment. Mental illness and disease are treated with kindness, understanding and compassion. The bifurcated viewpoints on alcoholism are the main reason why so much of it is treated with punishment as opposed to kindness, understanding and compassion.

I understand and agree with the RR primal drive viewpoint. The method I used was based on meditation, and has much in common with RR. I viewed the thoughts as an outside observer, recognized them for what they were (just thoughts), and let them flow out. The thoughts lose much of their power when viewed in this way.

When the general public hears "Voluntary Behavior" they don't look at the bigger picture which is why punishment is often the preferred course of action.

Terminally Unique

I don't think so, and your remark about punishing voluntary "deviant" behavior only proves my point. I also do not trust any self-proclaimed altruists who want to corral people into "treatment" for their own good. If I can think of nothing better to do with my life than to destroy my mind and body with alcohol in exchange for the short-lived benefit it provides, who is anyone to say that I need "treatment" for it?

Not true.

Nothing has been more responsible for the disdain shown towards chemically-dependent people than the disease concept of addiction, which renders them sinners without choice, requiring a never-ending Inquisition to "save" them from themselves.

langkah

I can see RR's logic behind the initial premise upon which they build further.

As RR explains it, drinking alcohol for an alcoholic who isn't an alcoholic because AA invented the word about a hundred years after it was in use is just like the voluntary behavior we're all familiar with of engaging in water drinking or eating food. RR carrys this example further to point out that people obviously have the power to make the choice not to engage in those behaviors, just by ignoring the prompting of their primitive beast brain which tells them they need to eat or drink water.

I think we can all agree that's absolutely logical.

Terminally Unique

AA did not invent the words, but I think we can all agree that AA has its own definition of alcoholism and the real alcoholic, langkah.

DayTrader

I personally don't care if it's a disease, not a disease........and I don't really care what "they" think about alcoholics. I know I'M an alkie, I know I do not have the power to stay sober on my own and I know that even that seemingly "hope-less" statement was the beginning of more power coming into my life than I'd ever had before. Someone else's case may be different, someone else's experience may be different.....and that's cool with me too.

As for Alanon, I assume your statement is based upon what you've heard about alanon and no direct contact with the program or any people who are working the program. Then again, just like in AA, I'd assume there are probably folks who show up at alanon meetings, who say they're "in alanon" but are working their own program or no program at all. Alanon uses the same 12 Steps that are in the AA program so it's pretty safe to say the alanon program is alkie-friendly since we alkies in AA use the same thing........the only time I've THOUGHT alanons were unpleasant was when I was drinking or when I was not-drinking but still suffering from untreated alcoholism.

BackToSquareOne

[QUOTE=Terminally Unique;3226140]I don't think so, and your remark about punishing voluntary "deviant" behavior only proves my point.


TU, voluntary deviant behavior = criminal activity, we punish criminal activity so I don't get your point.