DayTrader

The definition of "sober" I was taught - the one that was in the dictionaries in the 1930's - is: being of sound mind and judgement.

by that definition, someone who's alcoholic, not drinking, and picks up again is NOT sober.

Definitions of words change though and, like it or not, "sober" has come to mean dry or wet. It also seems that there IS no replacement for the old use of "sober" that I'm aware of. Maybe it's "recovered" now-a-days.

Maybe it should be "sane" or "insane."

One of the 50-yr-sober guys in this area (just had his b-day a week ago or so) is known to ask his sponsees if, after one of them has relapsed, they are incurably stupid or just temporarily insane?

David 1

"If I can choose to stay away from the first drink, then my problem is solved. I just choose to stay away from the first drink. Game over."

Man, that is beautiful - Amen brother!

MF - I am sure many of us can relate to the "possessed" feeling!

Dave

RobbyRobot

Yeah, we're just talking, Keith. Works for me too.

Okay, same here for me too. You called it 'sober' but compared to living a spiritual life with an awakening, looking back now, you were just in a state of not drinking. Yeah, that's the way I see that. For me, when I was that way, not drinking and yet still thinking I was sober without living the sober life, well, I call that a dry drunk experience.

Yeah, same again. Hey, we're three for three here! <GRIN>

Yes, again I agree. To be clear though, -- all sane logic originating from the alcoholic mind and not the spiritual sober mind. The fact that the alcoholic wanted to drink and picked up that drink proves the alcoholic mind was running the show. The sober mind wouldn't even have gotten into the situation whatsoever to begin with, imo. The problem of drinking never would have manifested.

A few months. A few days. A few years. Who knows about others sobriety? Only they know for sure, you know. I know this though: most of the alcoholics I have met in all my sober years, most of them I would not consider them sober the way I define sober. The vast majority of alcoholics just stop drinking. And suffer through hell. And then they get on with the business of sooner or later getting that drinking going again. What they say, and what they do adds up and makes sense only to their alcoholic thinking mind. That's my ESH on that. So they pickup again not because they are sober obviously, but because they are still sick with the illness of alcoholism sans the sober life. They are doomed. Unless they get into that sober life, that is, you know. All it takes is a simple desire to eventually win the day into a well lived sober life!

Hmmm. I have no idea what gave you the idea of your question to me framed in that manner? LOL. What on earth did you think I would answer? What did I ever say that gave you the idea that I figured guys who were stopped drinking for a few whatever were 'somehow sober' and living sober lives -- without the spiritual requirement of being spiritual fit for a sober life?! LOL

Anyways, I'm glad you asked, Keith. It clears up things good and square between our talkings. Cool. Thanks for that.

Rob

keithj

Very cool, Rob. By my count, we were more like 4 for 4. I so much prefer being agreeable. But, the discussion is nice, even if there is disagreement.

Well, it's when we tell a guy who is trying that experiment with willpower to not drink, that he can make the choice of whether or not to pick up that drink. My experience (as well as the BB) tells me that I will fail at that every time. At least I always did in the past.

If willpower can work for someone, more power to 'em. I just know that there is a whole program of recovery designed for those of us that kept failing with the willpower idea. For those of us that had no power even before we picked up that first drink. That's what I was getting at with Superscrew. He seemed kind of confused on the AA message. The AA program is all about not having the power even when we aren't actively drinking.

Truth is, I have a ton of power in my life today. And it's all the result of that thing we agree on, a spiritual awakening or sober, spiritual life that I live on a daily basis.

GettingStronger2

Willpower is a strange thing, isn't it? Most of us alcoholics have a lot of willpower. I know I do. One of the things that people who know me well, and have known me for a long time or all my life will say is that I always acheive what I set my mind to doing. And it is true. But it wasn't true with alcohol. I would try, sure, to not drink. And I would not drink for a while. And then I thought I could go back to it and be able to just drink casually, or like other people do. But it always lead me right back to where I was, and usually beyond.

Today I am sober. Today I can not drink. But it is more than willpower. If it were just willpower, it would be resisting an urge to drink. I do not have that urge. it is gone. It may come back, but for today, I am free of it. I have my HP to thank for that.

Supercrew

Hey only my wife calls me that!

Maybe I am not the true alcoholic that the BB is talking about. I have made efforts over the years to curb my drinking, but aside from the year that it was court ordered, (which I stuck by), I never said "I will never drink again". I have learned through my years of drinking that although I have tried to make a very conscious effort to moderate I can for a day or two, and I have looked for pills and hypnosis to help me in my quest for moderation which always led me back to being drunk as a skunk. This is the first time that I made the decision to stop drinking forever, and I truthfully do not want a drink. I am not a "spiritual person", I haven't found a reason to change myself internally to stop drinking, I just had to find a reason that made sense to me. My reason was I did not want to find myself going through another withdrawal again. The last one hurt enough mentally and physically that I internalized that feeling and now I associate that feeling with drinking alcohol. The image is plastered in my brain.

So I will not say that the AA'ers method is wrong, but I would say either there are other methods that can also work, or I am not the alcoholic the BB describes.

I think I have found what will work for me, I know that alcohol is poison, and I have matured enough over the past 27 years to see it was not working for me. Thank you again for all the input, I am learning alot about my condition and different ways to treat it on a daily basis.

AlcoholicOrNot

[QUOTE=keithj;2664404]My 'at the time' definition of sober meant not drinking. That's what I was getting at in my earlier post. Before that 'sober life' (spiritual awakening for me) occurred, I was just like a lot of other people on this site. I wasn't drinking, and that constituted sobriety for me at that time.

Not only am I a newbie to this site but I'm a newbie to the jargon and knowledge of what it truly means to be an alcoholic and more importantly, what it means to have recovered from alcoholism.

This thread has been an "eye-opener" for me. I'm one of those who believes I'm sober because I'm not drinking and it's obvious I've got a lot more to learn because apparently, that's not the case.

I can see now, that I've got a long road ahead of me. Am I in Day 11 because of will power alone? Am I powerless and it's just a matter of time before I have a drink again?

It's a little more frightening now. I've been "happy as a lark" for going 11 days without drinking (don't think I'll be saying sober any time soon) but from what I'm reading, there's much more to it.

There's so much truth to what's been said. I can say that because I've stopped drinking many times before - the longest streak being 6 months.
Are the odds against me and it's just a matter of time before I drink again?
So many more questions now.

I've been drinking for over 25 years. Beer, beer, and more beer, preferably microbrews. I usually drink until one of two situations arise: 1. I'm out of beer; 2. I'm out of time. Number 2 wins 99.99% of the time mainly because the sun is coming up and I'm the only one still awake and there's still beer in the keg.

I realize there's just so much more to life than drinking and I don't want to waste the time I've got left. Life is beautiful so let's live it to its fullest.

Bought a surfboard today and I've never surfed before in my life. My teenage son and I will be "hitting the waves" tomorrow morning 6 am.

I'm so glad I found this site because each day I visit, I realize there's a lot of help here.

Thanks for reading.

RobertHugh

Some great back and forth here, and the politeness is almost nauseating.

Seems there are some definition issues: sobriety, abstinence, etc. I'm going to take another shot at this....

When I quit drinking, I'm abstinent (removed from drinking). Since I believe what's in the Big Book pretty literally, this abstinence-- no matter how long it lasts-- does not restore me to the sanity required to understand my powerlessness unless its accompanied with 12 Step work. So that original period of abstinence, which I've heard described as a period of grace, is when I decide whether I'm just going to "not drink and go to meetings" or try to find a power greater than me to restore me to sanity.

My experience is that sobriety and the restoration of sanity do not happen just through abstinence and going to meetings and "making the right decisions" and "trying to live a life based on spiritual principles." It happens through rigorous house cleaning and amends...and then living in 10 and 11 and carrying the message (step 12) to other suffering alcoholics. Thus I get a daily reprieve, a state of being "recovered."

I, too, thought it was "game over" after 11 years of sobriety. I wasn't a dry drunk-- pretty happy, well-adjusted, and not craving. Until one day, I did. Madly. And was off to the races again. My entire theory of sobriety up until that point could have been summed up with "Just don't take the first drink."

AlcoholicOrNot

RobertHugh, your clarification is very helpful to my understanding. So, not sober but I've been abstaining from alcohol for 11 Days and yes, at my young stage in this process, I "just don't want to take that first drink".

I'll start perusing the "12 Steps" I've seen atop practically each page on this site to further my understanding.

Thanks for taking the time.

Supercrew

I am not going to argue with your beliefs and what has obviously worked very well for you. I commend you for finding YOUR solution to YOUR alcohol issue. I hope I never have to rediscover after a period of sobriety that I did it wrong, but if I do I will probably take a more serious look at AA.

That being said, this is why I had some problems with the AA teachings, although I obviously have a substance abuse issue with alcohol, I do not feel that I lost my sanity. I live a pretty proper life and aside from me drinking way too much, I did not see a need to change my whole life or make a "rigorous house cleaning and amends", because the only person who was really being affected was me. Although I didn't like what drinking did to me, I never got to the point that I hated or even disliked myself. I disliked my drinking issue and the fact that I can't drink like a normal person. Other than that my life has been pretty blessed. So please don't take this as a dig at AA or the method that you needed to find your sobriety, because who knows maybe i will find in the future that you are correct, but currently I do not see that being the case, and I don't think that we all fit the same model.....but I could be wrong.

RobertHugh

Very well said, my friend. I don't claim to have all the answers, but only the one that worked for me. We're all brothers and sisters in the same battle.

RobertHugh

I'm only six months removed from my last drink, but have been around and in AA for 14 years. So you and I, we have much in common.

I strongly recommend having someone take you through the first 63 pages of the Big Book, to make sure you're able to identify with the sort of alcoholic who's hopeless and beyond human help. It's that hopelessness that fuels the step process. Also, my sponsor was very fast with steps 1-3-- he told me that the only way I was working on those steps was by doing step 4. We took them as a series of considerations, and as long as I was willing (in step 2) to consider that there might be a power great than I, it was good enough to move forward. This was key-- if I needed to perfect those early steps before moving on, I never would have moved on. It was the act of doing 4, then 5 with my sponsor, quickly followed by 6 and 7, and then moving onto my amends in 8 and 9, that brought me to sanity and truth about 1-3. Because I found myself with relief from the obsession. It was as significant a psychic change as I've ever experienced in my life, and it has become the foundation for my desire to expand my spiritual life...and carry the message.

LaFemme

I once read an observation abou the alcoholic and willpower...it goes....take an alcoholic, put him in a dry county, where he knows no one and hasn't any money, and in five hours he will have a drink....if that isn't willpower I don't know what is!

I hesitate to ask, but I have seen references to a real alcoholic versus a not real alcoholic. I am trying to learn and not offend anyone, but if someone could maybe send me a p.m. explaining the difference I would be grateful:-)

RobertHugh

Putting AA's definition to the side, I think that anyone who considers themselves alcoholic probably is. I think it's incredibly dangerous to question someone's identification as an alcoholic-- if you've experienced instances where you cannot control your drinking, you have a problem of some sort, and it needs to be addressed. All of us--AA, non-AA, etc.-- are in that boat together, and we damn well better be helping each other and not making silly distinctions.

That said, the Big Book of AA devotes many pages to describing the alcoholic. They have a three-fold condition: a physical allergy and compulsion (usually what happens after alcohol enters the body-- the demand for more and the inability to decide when to stop), a mental obsession (the persistent and overpowering desire to drink even when you've been sober) and a spiritual malady (the root cause of alcoholism, often described as restlessness, irritability and discontentedness, a "hole in your soul," a general distress and emptiness).

The slogans and advice that you'll hear in many modern AA meetings center on the first element of the condition-- the physical. "Just Don't Drink and go To Meetings." It's a focus on physical abstinence, and for many, the power of fellowship, the helping of others, and the avoidance of triggers works for them in terms of staying sober.

But this does not work for everyone, and this is where some people make the arrogant "real" vs "not real" alcoholic. The "real" alcoholic, the thought goes, is unable to stay away from the first drink by "taking it one day at a time," and "calling their sponsor" and "thinking the drink through." They suffer from the mental obsession, which will never, ever be denied without help from a power greater than themselves that helps them solve the spiritual malady driving it.

So some who've worked the steps and had a spiritual experience that saved them look at others who have not worked the steps and are staying sober, and dismiss them as "not real alcoholics." They believe that the message these people are sharing in meetings-- just go to meetings, don't worry about the steps so much--is highly dangerous to the newcomer who might require more.

I stayed sober on meetings for 11 years, and then nearly died drinking again. Now I've worked the steps and believe I needed to to survive. Did my untreated disease grow and evolve during those 11 years? That's what I am coming to believe.

LexieCat

Hoo, boy,

I've been thinking about a post on the topic of the "real" alcoholic for at least three or four weeks (ever since I got a minor resentment when someone intimated to me, in what I considered a somewhat disdainful tone, that I wasn't one).

I am beginning to differentiate between "real alcoholic" and "real" alcoholic. I consider myself a "real alcoholic". I am convinced I am powerless over alcohol, I was unable to control my drinking for any length of time on my own willpower, I have found it absolutely necessary to surrender to the truth of my alcoholism. Now, is it possible for me to become, and stay, sober without working every one of the 12 Steps as if my life depended on it? I tend to think that I could. I also find other tools and concepts helpful to me.

I believe in the 12 Steps, however, as the best way to achieve the best and most satisfying sobriety. I have screwed up my life pretty well because of my drinking, and because of character defects that probably contributed to my becoming an alcoholic in the first place.

Now, people in AA who talk about "real" alcoholics in the way the term is used in the Big Book are talking about those who have repeatedly tried, and failed, to become and to stay sober without taking every one of the 12 Steps as if their lives depended on it--because for them, it does.

I am trying to learn to be patient and understanding when people in AA who ARE "real" alcoholics (as the term in the Big Book is used) get impatient with what they consider to be psychological "fluff" in lieu of pure Big Book 12-Step work. The fact is, some of that "fluff" is helpful to me. I would never suggest that a "real" alcoholic take advice or direction from me, as opposed to a sober "real" alcoholic in AA. I try not to discuss non-AA solutions or ideas in AA meetings (though I use them and talk about them outside the meeting).

I steal freely whatever works for me. I believe in AA, and I believe I belong there as much as any "real" alcoholic. Because, who knows, if I go back to drinking, even one, I might wind up every bit as "real" as anyone in AA--and I don't care to take the chance on finding that out, the hard way.

LexieCat

LOL,

Hey, I'm glad we posted at the same time, Robert! I think we both basically "get" where we are each coming from.

Bottom line, we are all here to support each other. Hugs, and carry on!

Supercrew

Thank you Robert for the clarification, as I said I haven't attended AA in a few years, and I was unclear on what exactly I was told while there. But again, I wasn't there under my own free will, and I wasn't taking my drinking issues that seriously at the time. I was more than attentive and courteous at the meetings, but I drew the ire of a few older AAer's because I was there for 52 weeks, and I never took on a sponser or participated in the 12 steps...and I had my share of donuts and coffee. So when I finally wanted sobriety for myself I didn't want to have to go back in, but I couldn't really remember why I was uncomfortable about it. Because a couple of the old guys told me I'd be back, even though I told them that I wasn't done yet.

David 1

Well put RobertHugh! You intimate this in your real alcoholic discussion and I believe it is important to at least note the genetic component to the alcoholism syndrome. A set of markers that can manifest themselves in a multitude of behaviors. Add in the Big Book information and I think we are close to a working definition.

Supercrew, it has been a few years since my last AA meeting too; I never got a sponsor or went through specific steps but I do believe in the AA message.

I agree that willpower alone more often than not does not work and my personal motivation was a combination of a few major items: Family, career, a potential loss of a significant inheritance, etc. Don't you guys think that there may be a moment that we can come to the realization that we have almost lost everything? I think that is more powerful than just willpower.

Eleven years sobriety and to pick up - That had to have been rough but know that through our fellowship that story has touched my life!

Dave

Supercrew

Yes David, it is more powerful than willpower alone, it did take a significant episode, (signifigant to me), and then couple with the loss of family, career, (I don't expect to see a large inheritance), but it was more than willpower alone that made me make up my mind to quit drinking. I think also my maturity has played a role in the way I feel about it now as well. I used to really care that others liked drinking with me, and I felt I was letting them down if I were to quit, so I would let that peer pressure even at 40 years old affect my judgement into thinking "what the hell a couple of drinks won't hurt", which in the end was leading to 3-4 day benders. So at one point willpower never worked for me. It has taken 3-5 different tools that I have learned along the way, working together, and then the support of this board to stay actively thinking about my issue daily. So I have put a program together for myself almost unknowingly, that combines, a fear of things larger than I am, a method to remember why I do not want to drink ever again, somewhat of a daily workout regimen, and a daily support group in SR that I can also hopefully give back something to others who are having similar issues. So yes I will agree that staying sober for me is more than the willpower not to pickup the first drink.