RobertHugh

I've been thinking alot about this topic lately and wanted to share my ideas and see what others think.

The issue is this: when do we truly get the truth of our powerlessness? Obviously the path differs for each person, and we know that 100,000 people each year in the United States alone never quite get it-- they die an alcoholic death.

I see it this way: eventually, the true alcoholic will stop drinking-- it's just the manner in which they stop. I think there are three ways: recovery, jails/institutions, or death. One of the three is going to get me if I'm powerless. The trick is getting to recovery before the other two.

I'm sure many alcoholics have discovered their truth when they woke up handcuffed to a hospital bed with a cop reading them their rights. At that point, it becomes much more clear. Problem is, the rules have changed-- abstinence is no longer optional. It will be provided for you by the state.

And, for those who die the alcoholic death, I would imagine there's a moment at the end where the truth must be pretty clear: "Holy crap, this is what they meant when they said powerless!"

Can the alcoholic get to their truth before it's brought to them? And what are the characteristics of those who understand the consequences of continued drinking without experiencing them?

I believe my three years of relapsing, and all that went with it-- were a gift. It qualified me as the alcoholic described in the Big Book, and reduced the options I had if I wanted to survive, to one. But I could have easily died during that process, or wound up in jail-- I'm no better than the alcoholic who does. Maybe it's chance, maybe it's a power greater than me, maybe a combination of the two.

The moment of realization-- the jumping off point-- is not something we can bring people to, I don't think. It's got to be profound enough to create a compelling reality, but not so profound it kills. It may happen over time.

I just find the idea interesting...thought I would float it...

GettingStronger2

It is a very interesting and perplexing question. Of course, there are those out there who think AA's designation of powerlessness is nonesense. I still have a hard time really understanding that point of view!

I read a description of "the bottom" that is somewhat like this -- it is reached when one either loses something more important to them or is on the verge (or believes to be on the verge) of losing something that important.

I like that explanation. However, I don't think it gets to your question, exactly. Some people must be at that point, and realize it, and yet not be able to stop before one of the two less desirable options you outlined occur.

I guess I have no insight as to what makes some of us quit before that. I quit without losing anything or getting in trouble with the law or being so physically sick that I needed medical treatment. Something snapped in me to make me realize I had to quit, and that I would do whatever it took. Alcohol, no matter how much a part of my life and my make up, was no longer something I wanted more than I wanted to be rid of it. I just knew that once I took a drink, I would not have the power to stop, even when I knew what the result would be. I thought I could do it with sheer willpower -- afterall, I typically can do whatever I set my mind to doing, especially if it is something I really want to do. But not so with drinking. I truy was powerless, until I realized I needed to reach out for help.

Toronto68

Robert, I have 8 months of sobriety, and I try to preface what I say with "to the extent that I understand where I am in my experience." In other words, I assume I am on a recovery path, but I am only so smart and don't know the future. It feels like I am on it. So at this stage, I think I fit into your line that goes: "It's got to be profound enough to create a compelling reality, but not so profound it kills. It may happen over time."

It was my feeling baffled by my having quit that got to me curious enough to study what was happening to me and roam around until I found this site. The jumping off point wasn't heaps of tragedies dropped on me. It seems like it was a lucky occurrence that came after a long period of robotic drinking and wondering how long it would go on. And during that period there were instances when what LaFemme said makes sense. It sounds absurd or ironic to say there was willpower involved in continuing to drink, but that makes sense a little for me somehow. Even though the robotic compulsion overshadowed it, I can remember thinking to myself at times "You can do it, hang in there," almost like there was a third-party battle going on inside over drinking for yet another day in a row. Somewhere inside me I knew that a piece of my brain was pulling for me (or it was a connection to God or something else I can't explain) and it was my chance to grab hold of the inspiration to quit and not return to the store to buy alcohol. I think of that when I see the words jumping off point.

I don't know how that compares with others' experiences statisically. I don't get worried about the fact I was not in a situation like the one your avatar seems to conjure (out of the Bill W story). I just consider myself lucky. Because I think I have gained something very important now that I don't drink and recognize why I cannot. The thought of altering that is like destroying something really precious to me, because I think this is a reality that will be with me for life. So I think I understood my powerlessness "somewhere before" I came to understand all this.

CarolD

When I decided to give up alcohol....and
yet....often returned to drinking
that is when I conceded to powerlessness.

David 1

Great topic and I believe there are quite a few variables in play here such as familial support, socioeconomic status (access to counseling/treatment), life stressors, career demands, etc. In other words, there are enough individual and environmental differences that a "one size fits all" definition may not be a valid descriptor. That may partially explain why some people see the truth during recovery or have the truth involuntarily shown to them (individual differences/circumstances!)

So yes, I believe we can see the truth but as Aehmnm said, we usually have to hit a bottom first. You said it yourself; it has to be a profound event or "spiritual awakening" for powerlessness to materialize.

For me, the moment I realized I was powerless over alcohol is etched in my mind. It is one of the main reasons I have been sober for the last seven years!

Dave

LexieCat

I'd had some "close calls" but never got a dui, never went to jail, never lost a job. Yet I was feeling increasingly desperate and scared. I started having visions of "this is the rest of your life... only it will keep getting worse."

My moment of clarity came when I had to have a co-worker drive me home because I was too dizzy and nauseous and shaky from withdrawal to stay at work or to drive myself. That was it, my big, dramatic "bottom".

It was when a lightbulb went on and I suddenly BELIEVED I didn't have to live this way any more. I was ready to stop. I was, quite simply, DONE.

And as much as I had mentally resisted the thought of going to AA, suddenly it was the most reasonable, natural thing in the world. I ordered a copy of the Big Book, started reading all the AA stuff I could find online, tapered down for three days, threw out all the booze, and went to my first meeting.

I always kid that I was too much of a wuss to find a lower bottom (though I know they exist). At the bare minimum, I think we have to reach the point at which the pain of going on as we have been exceeds the pain of taking the action we need to take. I also think that most of us have to be convinced that nothing we can do will make us able to drink normally. For me, that meant four and a half years of attempting with all my will to control my drinking on a consistent basis. I could only do it for short stretches of time, and it was getting steadily worse.

So, that was it, for me. Being convinced I was never going to be able to drink normally again, coupled with a great deal of fear of what was awaiting me and a healthy sense of desperation. The dark before the dawn.

DayTrader

I love the 12&12 where, in step 1, it talks about raising the bottom the rest of us had hit to the point where it would hit them. I wasn't AT that jumping off point, not even in the first dozen or so meetings after what turned out to be my last drink date. I couldn't honestly take the first step. The ppl in AA that I knew......they raised that bottom for me to the point where it hit me. They helped me to see that I was 99.99999% on my way to some of their bottoms......

So for me, in my first couple months of sobriety, I didn't believe I HAD to stop. I was pretty sure there was another option out there that was a lot more fun than dying an alcoholic death or a life lived on spiritual principles.

I owe my life and my sobriety to those folks who were kind enough to help save me from reaching the point where I had exhausted EVERY possible option.

So.... while it's easier to swallow sobriety, recovery, spirituality, AA, etc once you have burned through all your options, it certainly wasn't necessary for me. Thank God. I wouldn't put bets on me making it to AA if I had "lost it all."

Supercrew

I think why some people have a problem with the term "powerlessness" over alcohol is because at least I didn't realize at what point they were talking about when I lost my power. I knew that once I started drinking my body craved it and on some nights I would stop at a 12 pack, and others it would be a case and shots and vodka and I couldn't regulate it once it started, but I never thought when I went to my first AA meetings that this is what they were describing. First I don't like to admit I have no power over something, and I thought they were describing having no power over the bottle when I was sober.

I will admit that I can be out of control and lose my ability to regulate my drinking once I start, but I will say that if I am sober I am never powerless against having the first drink. This is always my decision.

As far as a jump off point, I had many points in my life where any sane human would have said "I give", but I pushed the boundries through a dui, fights, lost relationships, and some outright funny, scary and illegal scenarios that would be horribly incriminating if I were to post them, but I continued to drink harder. Then my jump off point came during a withdrawal at a little league game where I thought I was going to embarrass my son because of a panic attack at his allstar game. For some reason that moment was an epiphany for me and my jump off point. I didn't embarrass my kid, no one who was around me had a clue what I was going through, but for some reason that was a strong enough feeling that I want to be sober more than I wanted to keep drinking. Thinking about that moment in time still raises the hair on the back of my neck and makes me feel sick to my stomach. Thank God that it had that effect on me when really much more serious things have happened over my drinking career that did not affect me like that moment.

RobertHugh

Your description of a panic attack at your kids' game hit home. I know what that's like-- thinking everyone must know what you're feeling, that agony and craving and guilt and heaviness. I used to feel like every cell in my body was screaming, that my head would explode, like I was constantly falling but never hitting the pavement.

I also understand your point about having power over the first drink. It just makes logicial sense. But my experience has been different-- I discovered that I was capable of picking up that first drink after 11 years of sobriety. And when I continued to slip in and out of AA, many people told me that I didn't want it enough, that I wasn't getting to enough meetings, etc. The message I received was all about willpower (just don't pick up the first drink) and self-knowledge.

Our text tells us that we're fooling ourselves if we think it's just about the first drink and activating the physical allergy and compulsion. It tells us that we also have an emotional obsession and a spiritual malady, meaning that regardless of when we had our last drink, if we are truly a chronic alcoholic, we'll pick up again regardless of the consequences. It's the definition of utter hopelessness (which is the First Step for me).

Placed in this predicament, and understanding the truth of my hopelessness, I embarked on finding a true psychic change through the 12 steps. My recovery gained depth and weight.

keithj

This is not the 12 Step forum, Superscrew, so I'll tread lightly.
That's exactly what they are talking about. The lack of control when drinking is obvious to anyone. That's the physical craving. I have a faulty off switch once I start drinking.

But the real problem centers in my mind. I have a mental obsession. After a time sober, I somehow could convince myself that it would be OK to drink again.

This is completely, 100% contrary, to AA's Big Book. Which is OK. You are free to believe what you want.

If somebody in an AA meeting is telling you that the powerless applies only when you start drinking, they are full of crap. No ifs ands buts about it. They don't know AA's message. And that's OK too. They are also free to believe what they want.

If I can choose to stay away from the first drink, then my problem is solved. I just choose to stay away from the first drink. Game over.

The whole point of AA's program of recovery is that bitter experience has shown that I will fail over and over and over at making that choice.

The only way I became open to that idea was by repeatedly failing to manage my decision to not drink. By repeatedly choosing to not drink, and repeatedly getting drunk after a while.

Hate to burst your bubble about what AA means by powerless, but you may as well get it right if it's ever going to be useful to you.[/QUOTE]

loveon2legs

I tried quitting in the past and just kept returning to it time after time....On January 21, 2010 I was arrested for DUI....on January 25,2010 is my sobriety date....I had to learn it the hard way...there is no safe amount of alcohol for me, no trusting myself on what I will do anymore...that was (is) my rock bottom...If I hadn't of got my DUI I would probably still be a drunk...in worse trouble or dead....

RobbyRobot

I agree with your words here, Supercrew. Others may not. Its a big free world for those that live free. For some being powerless over that first drink is the thing of all things -- sober or not sober -- they just always believe they remain powerless against that first drink. Period. For me and others, being sober is the very living experience that arrests my alcoholism -- and so then stops and protects me from that first (next) drink.

Each to their own, you know. Both paths lead to a good sober life, imo. Actually, many paths do so has been my experience with others. i have no problem with others getting to sobriety in a journey all their own. We share common elements of alcoholism and sobriety. We also have unique experiences which gives all of us -- all of us -- distinctions all our own. I have no problem with my experiences being mine and whoevers being theirs. Live and let live. We share because in the sharing we create new experiences neither person had alone.

I myself am powerless against my alcoholism. I live a sober life which has power over my alcoholism and arrests my illness and stops it cold. From that point on I have power of decision today in my drinking or not drinking. I choose to not drink. If I chose to drink, eventually I would drink of course. It's not rocket science. It's a slam dunk. It would not happen overnight. I would have to destroy my sober life first -- but then whamo!! -- drunkeness would once again be the death of me.

RobbyRobot

keithj

It's semantics, isn't it Rob? From that point on, sure. I can view it as 'the power has been given to me' or as 'I rely on some other power'. Either way works just fine.

But prior to that point where I experience some power in my life and over my alcoholism as the result of this sober path I've chosen, my willpower was of no avail.

I couldn't stop drinking for any length of time just because I decided to stop drinking. The jaywalker story comes to mind in the AA context. That's all about being powerless before picking up that first drink.

Stone cold sober, what's the most insane thing I've ever done? Pick up that drink.

RobertHugh

All good points here, but I want to echo KeithJ: recovery from alcoholism can take many forms, I guess. But there is only one AA program. No one has a right to tell you how to get sober, but people do have a right to protect the integrity of a specific way of recovering. The book says "There is a solution," not "there are multiple solutions and everyone's program is different." And it says, "precisely how we recovered," not "here are some general principles to live by."

For me, the problem with measuring the quality of my sobriety by abstinence is that when I fail, I could die. The front line for me in the war on alcoholism has to be on a spiritual plane-- if I stumble or fail here, I'm not necessarily going to get drunk. If the front line is the physical plane-- just don't drink and go to meetings-- the consequence is usually drinking.

DayTrader

I'm with ya on that one. Of course, not everyone needs AA and even many that do choose another path or no path at all. I thought I read it last night in Dr Bob's nightmare but I can't find it now. Anyway, it was a comment regarding how it's none of our business which path others choose to take. Sometimes I forget that one here on SR.

I was also taught that THE SINGLE BEST way to "carry the message" of AA's brand of recovery is to be the best living example of the program we can be. That includes practicing kindness, understanding, love, humility as well as showing up at meetings, looking for opportunities to be helpful to others and doing it, knowing the steps/program, and so forth.

LaFemme

Great post! Thanks!

Just for the record, I will try never to say what AA is because I have no first hand knowledge of AA and if it ever sounds like I am saying something about AA's philosophy please know that it is probably only sloppy wording:-)

I know I can never, ever drink again, not even a sip. I also know that at this time I have zero desire to drink...alcohol is poison, and if I want to kill myself there are a lot of easier ways to do it. For me, there is no willpower involved, but as I've posted elsewhere, at the end there was a tremendous amount of willpower involved in drinking that first drink...so I have released that, and although I have the occasional habitual thought about drinking I just let it slide away.

Hopefully, this will never change.

Everyone is on their own path, but like Robby Rocket said, we are here as a community to help one another in the areas that we all have to deal with!

Supercrew

Thank you all for your input, and some of the AA information didn't exactly jive with my personal believes and experiences and it almost made me question my alcoholism. But each individual is different as is each of our problems with alcohol so I have no beef with AA or the AA'ers, and I enjoy the insight. So keep the discussion going, because as I continue to learn about how I can treat my problem, it gives me additional tools and information that I will be able to use if some day I see that I really don't have the power to say no to the first drink, I will at least be well equipped to move in that direction.

RobbyRobot

It's not semantics for me. And I agree completely with all of what you just said. Except for the last line: "Stone cold sober, what's the most insane thing I've ever done? Pick up that drink."

Getting drunk or drinking from a dead stop cold stone sober well lived life..... No way No how. Can someone destroy their sobriety enough in one day to drink? yeah, I suppose if they really wanted too and forced themselves to drink, you know. But the destruction of that sobriety could not go unnoticed. Alot of pain would surge up and have its way before the drinking could begin. Sobriety would stand right up and face all that noise. Sobriety does not get bitch-slapped around by alcoholism. If it did, what would be the use of sober living? No way my life, once sober established and lived is held hostage in some crap shoot with my alcoholisim. Sobriety owns here. Alcoholisim down for the count. bye bye drunkeness. Arrested and done with.

Nothing will stop a determined alcoholic from drinking. Nothing. I agree with that understanding. But before the drinking there is always alcoholism first (for the alcoholic) and drinking comes second. Drinking is not alcoholisim. If it was then just stopping would work of course, and it isn't nearly enough whatsoever. What the person chooses is the thing here. It's not semantics, imo.

I'm not gonna say you weren't stone cold sober when you picked up a drink, Keith. It's your ESH to give. Not a problem for me, you know? I'm saying that its not my experience so far after 29 years sober and I'm also saying it never will be my experience. Sober people don't get drunk. Alcoholic minded people do get drunk. Eventually. Sometimes many years later. And sometimes they just stay dry and die without drinking and without living sober lives either. But if they are sober then the alcoholic drama stops then and there, imo. The rest of the journey is sober living.

Life is strange.

Rob

keithj

And I agree with everything in your last post, Rob. It seems like it's a definition of 'sober' issue. Really, it's not issue at all. We're just talking here.

By my today's definition of 'sober', absolutely no way did I pick up a drink sober. My 'at the time' definition of sober meant not drinking. That's what I was getting at in my earlier post. Before that 'sober life' (spiritual awakening for me) occurred, I was just like a lot of other people on this site. I wasn't drinking, and that constituted sobriety for me at that time.

And in that condition (not drinking, not recovered), I had lost the power of choice in taking a drink. I didn't know that, but it was just a matter of time before I found out. And I did just what I see others doing. They pick up that drink for no good reason.

We have a couple whole chapters in the BB on this very thing. Over and over, they beat it into our heads that we seem to pick up that drink when all sane logic tells us we shouldn't. 'Not a cloud on the horizon', and there we go getting drunk again.

That's my experience with being where the guy with 3 months of not drinking is right now.

Here's my questions, Rob. For all those who have gone a few months without drinking, are they not sober now by your definition? And if they are sober now, how come they pick up that drink?

MelindaFlowers

Great question,

I finally "got it" when the blackouts started and, for lack of a better description, I would become possessed by the devil. Not sure how else to describe it.

The most vivid and similar example is Linda Blair in the Exorcist. I know that may sound a bit silly, but that was me.

I am a very shy person by nature but once I drank I would do and say things that would make Lindsay Lohan blush.

I knew I was powerless when I would apologize to my partner, friends, and family, shaking with anxiety, fear, embarrassment and then do it again.