Bradley004

and you need to admit you are powerless over it...THEN HOW DO YOU STOP? I just don't get it. I have trouble believing it is a disease. Why? Because I grew into a terrible "disease" of it's own...bullemia. I LIVED this nightmare for over 15yrs. Read the books it was incureable, blah, blah, blah. Howeve I can confidently say by the Grace of God and really what I believe is getting sick of obsessing with food...I am NORMAL. No more binges, cravings, obsessions. I have lived the normal life now for another 10yr. so I can safely say it is cureable.

Now, my point is the conditions of bullemia were like any other "addiction"....obsessing, craving, excess, feeling horrible the next day....physical desires, mental desires. Yet UNLIKE alchohol, you CAN eat.

So I am not convinced it is the alchohol that is the problem. It is our minds and how we CHOOSE to let it control us. I don't necessary think one drink or two is the issue..it's how we use it. Just like we can mis-use sex or other pleasures and also become obsessed.

Any thoughts?

LettingGo

The disease concept is difficult for many to grasp. I chose not to pick the meaning apart just because the end result is just the same wether it is a disease, an allergy, or just plain bad habit. I cannot drink successfully, and when I try to I fail time and time again. Destruction and pain enter my life and it is all a direct result of my drinking alchohol.

This subject is discussed at length so I am sure many will be around to give you their 2 cents too. Don will have great input on this line of thinking as well....

Hang around and glad to have you here!

Bradley004

Thanks Letting Go. I appreciate your no fluff answer. I am struggling with this right now. Someone recommended Under the Influence but that book made me want to drink. Just like when I used to read all those eating disorder books. To say it's final is defeating to me. Bullemia was not final. I can claim a miracle from God (which I do) but I still eat.

I want to stop....have EVERY reason to stop...have seen alot of progress..not at home anymore for the most part which I used to do nightly...even went 2 months last year. Maybe it is the holidays approaching,,,my boyfriend who does drink (but has no problem)...I don't know. I am very frustrated.

Bradley004

Even my Christian friends drink. They don't know I have a problem. Don't want to tell them. I can control when I want too but can't deny the obsession with it and the desire to continue knowing I should stop. I hate the hangovers and excuses. I feel so much better not. Do maybe your simple analogy is enough. We can abuse anything...who cares if it is a disease or not..

Some people have a problem with coffee. I should concentrate on my strengths. I just get confused when people say "if you have that one..your doomed"... That seems so extreme to me.

Even the Bible states in Psalm 104 ...wine was given to make us happy...? But it also states to not be DRUNK with wine.

I guess like all BEHAVIORS when we get too lazy or too out of control NO MATTER WHAT IT IS..we need to change our lifestyle.

Anna

Hi Bradley, I think you are very correct, that it is not about the alcohol. Many addicts will move from one addiction to another to another. That's why I think it's necessary to not just stop drinking, but to deal with the underlying problems and discover why you chose to deal with life that way.

And, as you say everything can be overdone. People exercise addictively, eat sugar addictively, but I think some things are clearly more socially acceptable and dangerous than others and drinking too much is just plain dangerous. Actually most things are more socially acceptable than drinking too much.

I understand your frustration as the holidays approach at not being able to drink. I feel that too sometimes, but I know, from many experiences, I cannot drink in a controlled manner. It might work for a short time, but inevitably I would slide. There is no question at all.

Love, Anna

LettingGo

I have a lot of friends who drink still too. It is difficult in that I want to be one who can unwind with a drink or two. Or if I wanted to I want to be one who could go out and party one weekend night at the bar with friends. I want to be carefree and let go sometimes! I probably could once or twice but inevitably it brings about more pain than it does pleasure in the end. I make very poor choices when I drink. I get together with men I wouldn't ordinarily be with, I endanger others by driving after drinking etc.... I am just not a good drunk. I know the feeling of not wanting friends to know I consider myself alchoholic. I was embarrassed at first. Kind of like failing somehow because I cannot control my own drinking habits. I am getting past this feeling as time passes.

In going to AA and the complete abstinence from alchohol that I pledge myself to, it does seem so final. How is it that I can know that I dont want to ever drink again? Well I guess the answer for me is that I do want to drink! I dont know if that will ever go away completley! What I dont want are DUI's, hangovers, guilt, embarrasment, blackouts, financial ruin, losing my job, losing my kids, and total chaos in life. The results hurt enough and the price of drinking is just too high for me anymore. The choice is always ours, so thinking about it in terms of finality, or NEVER again is a little difficult. As alchoholics we are undiciplined people they say. I guess that is why the one day at a time works so well. I just cannot handle much more than that. Someday, you will get more pain than pleasure from alchohol and well I should say IF that happens to you, then you can chose just that day wether or not you want to drink. Wether or not you want the pain or the sobriety. You may even put a few 24 hrs together! Sobriety has been a wonderful gift to me that I hang onto and pray for daily. It takes work to stay sober, but not nearly as much work as cleaning up the wreckage from a weekend binge takes!

Jon

Disease:

1. A pathological condition of a part, organ, or system of an organism resulting from various causes, such as infection, genetic defect, or environmental stress, and characterized by an identifiable group of signs or symptoms.

2. A condition or tendency, as of society, regarded as abnormal and harmful.

Hi Bradley,

I think I like the 2nd definition best, although "an identifiable group of signs or symptoms" fits well also.

You stated that just reading a book made you want to drink. This urge can in no way be considered "at ease."

I know today that my disease is centered in my mind. It is a disease of perception that has very little to do with the substance itself. Were it not drugs it would be alcohol, if not alcohol then food, sex, shopping, etc.

The fact for me is that once I start, I cannot stop. And when stopped, I continually think about starting. It's this obsession and compulsion that makes the disease concept real for me.

I have to remind myself that my sickness, like any other, needs to be treated. Daily. If not, then like any disease, I am in danger of getting sick again. And the vicious cycle starts all over.

The alcohol isn't the disease. It's what we use to treat our disease of perception. As an addict, drugs and alcohol stopped working for me. I had to find another medicine. I found mine through therapy, support groups and a 12 Step program.

I hope you find yours as well...

Music

Hi Bradley,
Read the "Doctor's Opinion" in the AA Big Book. Either accept it or not, it really doesn't matter. Anorexia and/or Bullemia regardless of the symtoms, is a control issue. So is accepting my alcoholism or not. Can I control my drinking....yes or no?? The Big Book says that alcohol is just a symtom of the "disease." So, I have to search out the real problem, which for me, was/is me.
People have gone to their grave worrying about whether or not alcoholism is a disease or not. Please don't waste your time on this decision. I've even heard that alcoholism was "made" a disease by the AMA just so there could be money made by treating it. I don't know if alcoholism is a disease in the true sense of the word or not, and I don't care. All I know is that once I start to drink, I don't stop. I can come up with all kinds of excuses to drink and not one good "reason" not to.
I know for sure that when I'm drunk I'm in a state of dis-ease. When I'm drinking I'm always in a state of dis-ease because drinking is always on the forefront of my thinking from the time I wake up 'til I pass out.
Since I've been sober, I don't experience the same dis-ease or discomfort. Sure, I have bad times just like anyone but these times have nothing to do with drinking. They have something to do with "living" which is not what I was doing when I was drinking.
If you can understand what I just said you're better than I am. I'm confused as hell.
Just give NOT DRINKING a chance for 90 days and if you're unhappy your misery can and will be refunded.

Ninerfan

Bradley, we had a lively discussion about this very subject back in May. Do a search for 'Disease or not' in this forum. It is interesting reading and will answer your questions or confuse you. Warning, it is a long thread so bring a lunch.

Briefly, I hope, it doesn't matter to me if Alcoholism is a disease or not. I adhere to the allergy model not the disease concept. When I take a drink my body reacts abnormally and I contiune to crave more even when I know I shouldn't drink. An allergic reaction seems to take place whenever I injest alcohol. I had to think back on my drinking 'career' to remember just how I usually drank. And when I started I continued to the bitter end. I knew that when I began to drink that was pretty much all I was going to do.
Use the 'disease' term losely and you will be fine. Go back in your drinking history and examine what happens to you when you drink. Forget about disease concepts, what happens when you drink?

Bradley004

Thank you all. All your comments really helped.

Jon, I saved your post because it actually made sense to me! Thanks.

Music, as always you make tremendous sense and made me laugh!!!!!

Letting go,....I don't think I need any more reasons to stop (I have experienced similar results as you)...but of course I make excuses.

Anna, I think you hit the nail on head too...Alchohol is just dangerous. Funny, I can keep away from sugar because I have learned it has negative results with me me (ie. false energy, mood swings..no nutritional value).. I conditioned myself to not desire it..but after this post I had to think wayyyyy back and remember what a struggle that was at first. When I was younger I didn't know enough what eating that crap can do to you. So even eating you need to learn..I guess since I don't have a struggle anymore with Food in general or dieting I forgot the war it was to make peace with change in my eating habits and still like myself (if that makes sense)?

It's all relative...there are foods that are good for you to create balance...it was never the food...Music is right again..it was the control to diet....food became the focus.

To my knowledge there are no alcoholic beverages that are "good for you"...so I guess my addiction here is control again. It helps me escape...feel different (bad or good). I have become addicted to the behavior hense the focus on the drink ...

Like Jon said so elequently....."The alcohol isn't the disease. It's what we use to treat our disease of perception. "...

Must admit..that first drink I took that started all this was not the problem it was WHY i drank. I drank to have an effect. Well, I sure got that didn't I...?? ha

PianoGirl

Quote from, "Beyond The Influence":

The answers to these questions are hotly debated by those who insist that alcoholism is not a true medical disease at all but a symptom of underlying pschylogical and emotional problems to which the individual responds by engaging in increasingly self-destructive behavior.

Alcoholism in not a mysetrious illness, nor is it "willful misconduct". Alcoholism is a true medical disease rooted in abnormalties in the brain chemistry - biochemical aberrations that are inherited by the great majority of alcoholics and, in some cases, aquired through intense and sustained exposure to alcohol and other drugs. WHEN THE ALCOHOLIC DRINKS SOMETHING DIFFERENT HAPPENS. This difference between alcoholics and non-alcoholics is not created by personality disorders, emotional instability, character defects, or traumatic circumstances; it is a difference in the way the alcoholic's body responds to the drug of ALCOHOL.

This is not theory but fact, based on thousands of research studies detailing the nature, causes, and progression of this ancient yet perpetually misunderstood disease. More than fifty years of experimentation and investigation by distinguished scientists in such diverse fields as neurology, biochemistry, pharmacology, and psychology have provided the basic facts needed to understand the drug alcohol and the disease it creates in biologically susceptible individuals. We know what this disease is, we know how to treat it, and we know how to prevent it. The knowledge is in our hands".

Myth: People become alcoholics because they have psychological or emotional problems that they try to relieve by drinking.

Reality: Alcoholics have the same psychological problems as non-alcoholics before they start drinking, but these problems are aggravated (and new disturbances created) by addiction to alcohol.


Myth: If people would learn to drink responsibly, they would not become alcoholics.

Reality: Many responsibile drinkers become alcoholics. Because of the nature of the DISEASE- not the person-they begin to drink irresponsibly.

Myth: Alcohol has the same chemical and psychological effects on everyone who drinks it.

Reality: Alcohol, like every other substance we take into our bodies, affects different people in different ways.

Myth: Addiction to alcohol is pyschological.

Reality: Addiction to alcohol is PHYSIOLOGICAL and involves profound chemical disruptions in the brain.

Myth: Alcohol is an addictive drug and anyone who drinks regularly for a long enough period of time will become physically addicted to it.

Reality: Alcohol is a SELECTIVELY addictive drug; only a minority of drinkers will experience the need OR desire to consume alcohol in sufficient quantities and over a long enough period of time to become physically addicted to it.
__________________________________________________ __

Bradley:

I'm not here to debate on whether alcohol is a disease or not. Just to present the facts as I personally view them. Like Niner said, "When I take a drink my body reacts abnormally". I think most of us can aggree with that bad chemical reaction to alcohol. My body chemistry reacted to alcohol like no one of my family or friends did when they drank. Because I was a true alcoholic, to the very core. I believe I inherited the tendancy from both grandfathers that had addiction problems, and I do look at is as a disease because of the way it affected me. I guess it doesn't really matter how you view it, disease or not, as long as you realize you have a problem with it, and stay away from it AS IF IT WERE A DISEASE THAT YOU DON'T WANT TO GET. That's the whole reason we're here afterall!

PG

Bradley004

Pianogirl, thanks.

Ninerfan, did you ever see the movie with Richard Gere, Kim Bassinger and Eric Roberts..some thriller. But in it she plays she has a allergic reactin to alchhol. There is a scene where she takes a sip of wine at dinner and freaks out. Later, she kills her husband because she took Nyquil to relieve a cold.

Actually, she was in another movie (Kim Bassinger) where she played same thing....can't remember the name but it was a comdey with Bruce Willis..I think it was "Blind Date". Hmmm, wonder if ole Kim is trying to tell us something..hahaha ahahahah

Anyway, I have always thought I was in the same category...like an allergy.

I'm not convinced it is a brain chemical..I still believe it is how we choose to handle LIFE. At some times all of us have to made changes when we get into trouble abusing our existence...anyway, your ALL right about "who cares"...just learn from it. When you get burned..STOP REACHING FOR THE STOVE.

Jon

I, too, have allergic reactions to alcohol and drugs.

I break out in handcuffs.

I break out under bridges.

I break out of relationships.

I break out of jobs.

I break out in hopelessness, depresson and despair.

Now THAT'S an allergy!

Chy

Hi Bradley and welcome.

Some very good food for thought above. I too no longer the how's and why's of my addiction to alcohol. I have accepted and surrendered to it. You can argue this one with yourself endlessly, but what's the point? Ultimatly you have to decide and realize .. it's just not working for you.

There are many alternatives of recovery but it's been my experiance that AA does work if you work it. Working the steps will help you see the "error of your ways" and allow you to move forward learning to love and accept yourself for who you are.

Nothing in life worth having is ever easily obtained. If sobriety is one of those things you would like to achieve you can do it, and not alone. Glad you found us!

snoop_bealybob

If it's progressive and it will eventually kill you then it is a disease. IMHO

Although I'm sure there are many more eating disorders in America than 3rd world countries. I can't imagine a person with an eating disorder in Sudan for instance. I could imagine an alcoholic there or anywhere else however.

Yes you still (have to) eat if you have an eating disorder. But it's how you eat. So it leans more towards a mental/cultural disease. I can not have a drink because I will have an allergic reaction as well, and it's physical for me. Once I start drinking it is nearly impossible for me to physically quit. But to me the allergic reaction that occurs when I consume alcohol is but a spoke on the wheel of my disease.

I've seen alcoholics quit drinking and become over eaters. In that case alcohol may have been just a symptom of the DIS-EASE.

In retrospect as my years as an alcoholic and drug addict I am able to see many things. But the biggest I saw was that it was really a disease of self: everything centered around me. Self loathing, pity, hatred etc. Any DIS-EASE of self can and will manifest itself in some way shape or form.

I suppose it's all relative, but if it's progressive and will kill you I'd label it a disease.

JACK B.

wow!
i made it through all that information and my boney little head did'nt pop! against the screen,i do have some abnormal swelling
though,i do hope it goes away!but if not it must be GOD'S WILL.
thank's for those displays of passion,concern and singleness of purpose you guy's are good people.thank's for 12 stepping me!
sincerely,
Jack B.

Patsyd1

Hi Bradley..... I hope this helps to define what Alcoholism is. For myself when I could not stop thinking about drinking, (Obsession) or predict what would happen to me after I took the first drink (Compulsion)....... I knew that there was something very wrong with my drinking. It was shared with me that social drinkers do not have to "think" about not drinking at all....... they just don't if they do not want to. That was certainly NOT me. LOL



Alcoholism is a chronic, progressive and potentially fatal disease. It is characterized by tolerance and physical dependency or pathologic organ changes, or both - all the direct or indirect consequences of the alcohol ingested.

Alcoholism has been defined as having the following characteristics:
Chronic and progressive.. Physical, emotional, and social changes that develop are cumulative and progress as drinking continues.

Tolerance.. brain adaptation to the presence of high concentrations of alcohol.

Physical dependency.. withdrawal symptoms occur from decreasing or ceasing consumption of alcohol.

The person with alcoholism cannot consistently predict on any drinking occasion the duration of the espisode or the quantity that will be consumed.

Pathologic organ changes can be found in almost any organ, but most often involve the liver, brain, peripheral nervous system, and the gastrointestinal tract.
The drinking pattern is generally continuous but may be intermittent, with periods of abstinence between drinking episodes.

Social, emotional, and behavioral symptoms and consequences of alcoholism result from the effect of alcohol on the function of the brain. The degree to which these symptoms and signs are considered deviant will depend upon the cultural norms of
the society or group in which the persons lives.

(Definition prepared by the National Council on Alcoholism/American Medical Society on Alcoholism, Committee on Definitions)

Detection: The chemical carbohydrate deficient transferrin is of benefit as a marker for heavy alcohol use. It is elevated in alcoholics but not in those who are not heavy drinkers.
Etiol: Psychological, physiological, and sociological factors play an important part.
The exhilaration factor is often the cause of intoxication in nonalcoholic individuals.
Alcoholism is an illness and should be so treated. Even though it is accepted that a genetic factor is at work in the development of alcoholism, the precise genetic mechanism has not been determined.


The definition of disease in the medical dictionary is:

Disease: Literally the lack of ease; a pathological condition of the body that presents a group of clinical signs and symptoms and laboratory findings peculiar to it and that sets the condition apart as an abnormal entity differing from other normal or pathological body states.
The concept of disease may include the condition of illness or suffering not necessarily arising from pathological changes in the body. There is a major distinction between disease and illness in that the former is usually tangible and may even be measured, whereas illness is highly individual and personal, as with pain,
suffering and distress.
A person may have a serious disease such as hypertension but no feeling of pain or suffering, and thus no illness. Conversely, a person may be extremely ill, as with hysteria or mental illness, but have no evidence of disease as measured by pathological changes in the body.

Yours in Recovery,
Patsy

Music

Hi all,
Disease or not, doesn't matter to me.
I'll never forget the words of my first sponsor when I started trying to poke holes in the program by questioning this and that. He said to me, "You don't want to get sober do you?" "If you did, you'd find a way to make this thing work for you rather than against you." "Quit trying to find ways to get out, and start looking for ways to stay in..AA." Then he added, "Of course, you can always go back out and drink some more." I believe it was a that point when I was struck with the idea that maybe I'd better start accepting and stop fighting.

Patsyd1

(((((((((((((((((Music)))))))))))))))))))))))

Thats the truth

When I was questioning the truth...... my sponsor shared the same thing with me. It doesn't matter what we call it..... its what we are willing to do about it that counts

Thanks Music and as always......
I love ya
Patsy

Patsyd1

Here is something that is not only true and humorous regarding my own alcoholism.... but it hits home every single time with this alky

Love
Patsy


The Spiritual Disease of Alcoholism
(Transcribed from a talk given by Wayne B.)

"Silkworth says I have a condition known as "alcoholism". I have a soul sickness, I have a sickness of my spirit"
"On page XXIV Silkworth says through Bill Wilson that I am "maladjusted to life, In full flight from reality and an outright mental defective." (That was my hope for the future.)"
Now you might wonder how that "ism" manifests in me as a child of God?
When I tell you I'm an alcoholic who suffers from alcoholism, according to Silkworth, Dr. Harry Tebou, Rev. Sam Shoemaker and Fr. Ed Dowling, here is what that means to me. When I tell you I'm an alcoholic, what I'm really suggesting is that I realize I look to you right now like a full grown mature adult man. In reality, I remain childish, grandiose and gravely, emotionally immature. As a going human concern my natural state is one of growing anxiety, depression and fear, coupled with an intense desire for EXCITEMENT. A condition of being which is complicated with and exacerbated by an obsessive, compulsive, impulsive, excessive, controlling, demanding need ..for attention, acceptance, and unqualified approval. A condition of being which renders me restless, irritable and discontent with life.

Now you might wonder how the restless, irritable discontented self affects my mental, emotional nature? Mentally my thought life is governed by 100 forms of fear, self delusion, self seeking and self pity, all of which drive me to live my life according to selfish, dishonest, self seeking, and considerate resentful and frightened motives in life. Motives if left unattended in me, arouse and engage dangerous and life threatening, and I said Life Threatening, levels of lust, pride, anger, envy, greed, sloth, gluttony, I turn into a pig, I WANT IT ALL. And that renders me ..emotionally a bit sensitive. Which means I have a strong tendency to take anything I see or hear, personal. I don't like criticism, and I can't stand praise simply because I don't believe you.

When it comes to suffering emotionally, I don't like to suffer emotionally, I don't suffer well, and I don't suffer ALONE.
Socially, I'm a bankrupt idealist, and brooding perfectionist who lives defensively and guarded in fear of being found out. As such I tend to rationalize, minimize, justify, and deny all my actions while casting blame upon innocent people in a vigorous attempt to avoid detection.
Regarding my fellow man and woman, I demand (and I said DEMAND) the absolute attention and control..of everybody. My response to you is I'm quick to anger, slow to virtue and I get a distinct, succinct delight and twisted pleasure out of criticizing and judging everybody I see. My outstanding characteristic is defiance, and rebellion dogs my every step.
Now as a child of God, that's a catalogue of my finer qualities. Anybody want a date? Oh my God...You might laugh at those symptoms, that means identification. They leave me with a condition known as "alcoholism" and here's how they appear
in real life. I don't fit in, I don't belong, I'm not a part of and I always wonder what is wrong with me.

When I drink alcohol, ethyl hydroxide, that creates an abnormal illusionary effect in my mind of pending, seaming, normalcy. And if I ever drink again it's gonna be because I feel different, I don't fit in, I don't belong. So it's incredibly important that I stay here in the center of Alcoholics Anonymous and do that which I know will keep me in good stead with you."