If Alchoholism is a disease...
Member
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Zion, Illinois
Posts: 3,411
Thanks Patsy,
It blows my mind that most people, when spiritual disease is mentioned, right away think about something having to do with God. Although it's true that God was not a part of my life when I came to AA, I wasn't a part of my life when I came to AA either. My soul was sick alright but not because I was missing God. I'd done so many embarrasing and shaming things I was sick right to the deepest part of my being...physically, mentally and spiritually. My spirit to live was almost broken, like when a good horse is beaten into submission. The spirit is broken. The only thing that healed me was hanging in with people who had gone through what I'd gone through and allow them to help me. I spent almost every waking hour of every day with AAs when I wasn't doing what I "had" to do, like work. The people in AA convinced me that God was a good idea but not until I had regained some of my will to want to stop drinking to live. It takes as long as it takes and whatever it takes. It's not surprising to me that most people go back out and drink some more. Wanting what I want, when I want it didn't stop just because I started going to meetings. Thank God I had people around me telling me to slow down and be patient. The quick fix didn't work then, never did work and won't work now, now matter how many treatments a perons goes through or how many self-help books they read.
Time takes time.
Love you too Patsy. What's really neat is that today, I'm capable of loving a whole bunch of people and there's nothing they can do about it.....Ha!:p
It blows my mind that most people, when spiritual disease is mentioned, right away think about something having to do with God. Although it's true that God was not a part of my life when I came to AA, I wasn't a part of my life when I came to AA either. My soul was sick alright but not because I was missing God. I'd done so many embarrasing and shaming things I was sick right to the deepest part of my being...physically, mentally and spiritually. My spirit to live was almost broken, like when a good horse is beaten into submission. The spirit is broken. The only thing that healed me was hanging in with people who had gone through what I'd gone through and allow them to help me. I spent almost every waking hour of every day with AAs when I wasn't doing what I "had" to do, like work. The people in AA convinced me that God was a good idea but not until I had regained some of my will to want to stop drinking to live. It takes as long as it takes and whatever it takes. It's not surprising to me that most people go back out and drink some more. Wanting what I want, when I want it didn't stop just because I started going to meetings. Thank God I had people around me telling me to slow down and be patient. The quick fix didn't work then, never did work and won't work now, now matter how many treatments a perons goes through or how many self-help books they read.
Time takes time.
Love you too Patsy. What's really neat is that today, I'm capable of loving a whole bunch of people and there's nothing they can do about it.....Ha!:p
Member
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Northern CA
Posts: 1,432
Originally posted by LettingGo
The disease concept is difficult for many to grasp. I chose not to pick the meaning apart just because the end result is just the same wether it is a disease, an allergy, or just plain bad habit. I cannot drink successfully, and when I try to I fail time and time again. Destruction and pain enter my life and it is all a direct result of my drinking alchohol.
This subject is discussed at length so I am sure many will be around to give you their 2 cents too. Don will have great input on this line of thinking as well....
Hang around and glad to have you here!
The disease concept is difficult for many to grasp. I chose not to pick the meaning apart just because the end result is just the same wether it is a disease, an allergy, or just plain bad habit. I cannot drink successfully, and when I try to I fail time and time again. Destruction and pain enter my life and it is all a direct result of my drinking alchohol.
This subject is discussed at length so I am sure many will be around to give you their 2 cents too. Don will have great input on this line of thinking as well....
Hang around and glad to have you here!
But I agree about the end result part: let's not let definitions get in the way of simple actions such as, say, quitting drinking!
Rather than state my own opinion, I'll just pass along the following....Some of these folks are amazingly wordy and could use better editors!
In Addiction, Change, & Choice: The New View of Alcoholism (Sharp Press, Tucson, AZ, 1993), Vince Fox provides no fewer than 18 definitions of the term alcoholism, out of 40 he found. He groups them as Traditional, Nontraditional, and Exploratory. The following is quoted verbatim; parenthetical and bracketed notations are by Fox, not me.
--------------------
1-A) Traditional: By the National Council on Alcoholism and Drug Dependence:
Part 1 (Initial statement, 1971). Alcoholism is a chronic, progressive and potentially fatal disease characterized by tolerance and physical dependency or pathological organ changes, or both--all the direct or indirect consequences of the alcohol ingested.
Part 2 (1990): (Written jointly by the NCADD and ASAM--the American Society of Addiction Medicine.)
Alcoholism is a primary, chronic disease with genetic, psychosocial, and environmental factors influencing its development and manifestations. The disease is often progressive and fatal. It is characterized by continuous or periodic impaired control over drinking, preoccupation with the drug alcohol, use of alcohol despite adverse consequences, and distortions in thinking, most notably denial. (Note departure from the 1972 statement relative to qualification of the progressive nature of alcoholism and the inclusion of denial as a symptom of the define disease.)
1-B) Nontraditional: By Claude Steiner and Eric Berne: Alcoholism is neither incurable nor a disease.
1-C) Exploratory: By the World Health Organization (WHO): Alcoholics are those excessive drinkers whose dependence upon alcohol has attained such a degree that it shows a noticeable mental disturbance or an interference with their bodily and mental health, their interpersonal relations, and their smooth social and economic functioning; or [those] who show the prodromal (warning) signs of such developments.
2-A) Traditional: By the American Medical Association: (1956, December 29): The medical treatment of alcoholism is rapidly becoming more important in accomplishing recovery for this disease.
(1966, November 28 - 30): A reaffirmation of the 1956 resolution.
(1987, June 21-25): RESOLVED, That the American Medical Association endorses the proposition that drug dependencies, including alcoholism, are diseases.
2-B) Nontraditional: By Black's Law Dictionary, 5th Ed., 1979: The pathological effect (as distinguished from physiological effect) of excessive indulgence in alcoholic liquors. [Pathological: that is, the diseased condition or structural and functional effects produced as a result of "excessive consumption"].
2-C): Exploratory: By Webster's New World Dictionary of the American Language; Second College Edition:
The habitual drinking of alcoholic liquor to excess, or a diseased condition caused by this.
(cont'd)
Member
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Northern CA
Posts: 1,432
definitions, cont'd:
3-A) Traditional: By Jim Christopher: Science has established that alcoholism is a physiological disease predetermined by heredity. Alcohol is a selectively physically addictive drug…
3-B) Nontraditional: By Jack Trimpey: [The words] "alcoholism" and "alcoholic" are folk expressions…. I will use the term "alcoholic" to refer to people who believe they are powerless over their addictions and act accordingly, and to those who call themselves "alcoholics." They are practicing the philosophy of alcoholism, just as Catholics practice the philosophy of Catholicism. I prefer the correct term "alcohol dependence" to describe the problem of persistent, heavy drinking…
3-C) Exploratory: By Charles Bufe: [Of Alcoholic, Alcoholism]: Since the terms were invented over 100 years ago, a great variety of definitions have been offered, and there is still no uniformity of opinion among the "experts" about what constitutes alcoholism nor about what constitutes an alcoholic. The safest thing that can be said is that definitions are largely arbitrary and can (and do) change over time.
4-A) Traditional: By Claudia Black: The alcoholic is a person who, in his drinking, has developed a psychological dependency on the drug alcohol coupled with a physiological addiction…. They are people who neither have the ability to consistently control their drinking, nor who can predict their behavior once they start to drink.
4-B) Nontraditional: by the American Psychiatric Association (ASA) (DSM-III-R): Note: The word alcoholism is no longer used as a subject heading in the third edition of the familiar DSM-III-R (Diagnostic Statistical Manual, Revised). It lists Alcohol Dependence (Section 303.90, p. 173) and Alcohol Abuse (Section 305.00, p. 173) in its stead. It observes that abuse can lead to dependence.
Patterns of use. There are three main patterns of Alcohol Abuse or Dependence. The first consists of regular daily intake of large amounts; the second, of periods of sobriety interspersed with binges of daily heavy drinking lasting for weeks or months. It is a mistake to associate one of these particular patterns exclusively with "alcoholism." Some investigators divide alcoholism into "species"…[such as the] so-called gamma alcoholism…that is common in the United States and conforms to the stereotype of the alcoholism seen in people who are active in Alcoholics Anonymous…[and that] involves problems with "control."
4-C) Exploratory: By The Encyclopedia Britannica: [The] repetitive intake of alcoholic beverages to such an extent that repeated or continued harm to the drinker occurs….Alcoholism may be viewed as a disease, a drug addiction, a learned response to crisis, a symptom of an underlying psychological or physical disorder, or a combination of these facts. The cause of alcoholism is equally uncertain. It has been viewed as a hereditary defect, a physical malfunction, a psychological disorder, a response to economic or social stress, or sin.
5-A) Traditional: By Mark Keller: I think [alcoholism] is a disease because the alcoholic can't consistently choose whether or not he shall engage in self-injurious behavior--that is, any of the alcoholism drinking patterns. I think of it as a psychological disablement.
5-B) Nontraditional: By Herbert Fingarette: Heavy drinkers [alcoholics] are people who have over time made a long and complex series of decisions, judgments, and choices of commission and omission that have coalesced into a central activity…. Instead of viewing heavy drinkers as the helpless victims of a disease, we come to see their drinking as a meaningful, however destructive, part of their struggle to live their lives.
5-C) Exploratory: By the United States Supreme Court (1988): …apparently nobody understands alcoholism…it appears to be willful misbehavior.
6-A) Traditional: By Alcoholics Anonymous and Bill Wilson (delivered at the National Clerical Conference on Alcoholism convention, April 21, 1960): We have never called alcoholism a disease because, technically speaking, it is not a disease entity. (emphasis added) For example, there is no such thing as heart disease. Instead there are many separate heart ailments, or combinations of them. It is something like that with alcoholism. Therefore we did not with to get in wrong with the medical profession by pronouncing alcoholism a disease entity. Therefore we always called it an illness, or a malady--a far safer term for us to use.
6-B) Nontraditional: by Morris Chavetz: Alcoholism is drinking too much too often. It is permitting alcohol to play an inordinately powerful role in a person's life.
6-C) Exploratory: By Arnold Ludwig: There is no general agreement about the nature, cause, or treatment of alcoholism. What is an alcoholic? Where does one draw the line between problem drinking and alcoholism, between alcohol abuse and alcohol dependence? Is alcoholism one disorder or a collection of different disorders? Is it a moral failing, a bad habit, or a disease? Do alcoholics have distinctive personality features? Is alcoholism hereditary or learned? Does excessive drinking represent a symptomatic expressing of an underlying conflict or is it the primary problem itself? Which treatment approach, if any, is most effective? Who is best qualified to help? … In the absence of facts, opinions and beliefs tend to prevail.
---------------------------
From Fox's copious footnotes, here are two that might be of interest. Portions that I have snipped are indicated with "…."
1. Many people assume that what is termed a disease is scientifically determined within set parameters and through laboratory testing. This is not always the case. The determination is often made by voice vote within a committee designated by the American Medical Association, as in the case of "alcoholism" as a disease….
16. Wilson's statement will come as a shock to many. It stands, however, as written. I found it in a footnote on pp. 22-23 of Not-God by Ernest Kurtz….
Is it possible that Wilson was a nontraditionalist? Yes, but only in the narrow sense of not viewing alcoholism as a physiological disease. In most other areas he was the quintessential traditionalist; he promoted the loss-of-control notion, for example, and he postulated that alcoholism was an incurable but arrestable "malady" or "illness." ….
His fundamental conviction…was that alcoholism is a spiritual disease in the metaphorical sense. On page 44 (1976 ed.) of the Big Book he describes alcoholism as "…an illness which only a spiritual experience will conquer"….
Throughout the Big Book he refers to alcoholism as an illness, malady, sickness, allergy, and craving. A.A. literature generally refers to alcoholism as a "physical, mental (or emotional), and spiritual disease," and shares with Wilson the conviction that the defining issue is spiritual.
---------------
3-A) Traditional: By Jim Christopher: Science has established that alcoholism is a physiological disease predetermined by heredity. Alcohol is a selectively physically addictive drug…
3-B) Nontraditional: By Jack Trimpey: [The words] "alcoholism" and "alcoholic" are folk expressions…. I will use the term "alcoholic" to refer to people who believe they are powerless over their addictions and act accordingly, and to those who call themselves "alcoholics." They are practicing the philosophy of alcoholism, just as Catholics practice the philosophy of Catholicism. I prefer the correct term "alcohol dependence" to describe the problem of persistent, heavy drinking…
3-C) Exploratory: By Charles Bufe: [Of Alcoholic, Alcoholism]: Since the terms were invented over 100 years ago, a great variety of definitions have been offered, and there is still no uniformity of opinion among the "experts" about what constitutes alcoholism nor about what constitutes an alcoholic. The safest thing that can be said is that definitions are largely arbitrary and can (and do) change over time.
4-A) Traditional: By Claudia Black: The alcoholic is a person who, in his drinking, has developed a psychological dependency on the drug alcohol coupled with a physiological addiction…. They are people who neither have the ability to consistently control their drinking, nor who can predict their behavior once they start to drink.
4-B) Nontraditional: by the American Psychiatric Association (ASA) (DSM-III-R): Note: The word alcoholism is no longer used as a subject heading in the third edition of the familiar DSM-III-R (Diagnostic Statistical Manual, Revised). It lists Alcohol Dependence (Section 303.90, p. 173) and Alcohol Abuse (Section 305.00, p. 173) in its stead. It observes that abuse can lead to dependence.
Patterns of use. There are three main patterns of Alcohol Abuse or Dependence. The first consists of regular daily intake of large amounts; the second, of periods of sobriety interspersed with binges of daily heavy drinking lasting for weeks or months. It is a mistake to associate one of these particular patterns exclusively with "alcoholism." Some investigators divide alcoholism into "species"…[such as the] so-called gamma alcoholism…that is common in the United States and conforms to the stereotype of the alcoholism seen in people who are active in Alcoholics Anonymous…[and that] involves problems with "control."
4-C) Exploratory: By The Encyclopedia Britannica: [The] repetitive intake of alcoholic beverages to such an extent that repeated or continued harm to the drinker occurs….Alcoholism may be viewed as a disease, a drug addiction, a learned response to crisis, a symptom of an underlying psychological or physical disorder, or a combination of these facts. The cause of alcoholism is equally uncertain. It has been viewed as a hereditary defect, a physical malfunction, a psychological disorder, a response to economic or social stress, or sin.
5-A) Traditional: By Mark Keller: I think [alcoholism] is a disease because the alcoholic can't consistently choose whether or not he shall engage in self-injurious behavior--that is, any of the alcoholism drinking patterns. I think of it as a psychological disablement.
5-B) Nontraditional: By Herbert Fingarette: Heavy drinkers [alcoholics] are people who have over time made a long and complex series of decisions, judgments, and choices of commission and omission that have coalesced into a central activity…. Instead of viewing heavy drinkers as the helpless victims of a disease, we come to see their drinking as a meaningful, however destructive, part of their struggle to live their lives.
5-C) Exploratory: By the United States Supreme Court (1988): …apparently nobody understands alcoholism…it appears to be willful misbehavior.
6-A) Traditional: By Alcoholics Anonymous and Bill Wilson (delivered at the National Clerical Conference on Alcoholism convention, April 21, 1960): We have never called alcoholism a disease because, technically speaking, it is not a disease entity. (emphasis added) For example, there is no such thing as heart disease. Instead there are many separate heart ailments, or combinations of them. It is something like that with alcoholism. Therefore we did not with to get in wrong with the medical profession by pronouncing alcoholism a disease entity. Therefore we always called it an illness, or a malady--a far safer term for us to use.
6-B) Nontraditional: by Morris Chavetz: Alcoholism is drinking too much too often. It is permitting alcohol to play an inordinately powerful role in a person's life.
6-C) Exploratory: By Arnold Ludwig: There is no general agreement about the nature, cause, or treatment of alcoholism. What is an alcoholic? Where does one draw the line between problem drinking and alcoholism, between alcohol abuse and alcohol dependence? Is alcoholism one disorder or a collection of different disorders? Is it a moral failing, a bad habit, or a disease? Do alcoholics have distinctive personality features? Is alcoholism hereditary or learned? Does excessive drinking represent a symptomatic expressing of an underlying conflict or is it the primary problem itself? Which treatment approach, if any, is most effective? Who is best qualified to help? … In the absence of facts, opinions and beliefs tend to prevail.
---------------------------
From Fox's copious footnotes, here are two that might be of interest. Portions that I have snipped are indicated with "…."
1. Many people assume that what is termed a disease is scientifically determined within set parameters and through laboratory testing. This is not always the case. The determination is often made by voice vote within a committee designated by the American Medical Association, as in the case of "alcoholism" as a disease….
16. Wilson's statement will come as a shock to many. It stands, however, as written. I found it in a footnote on pp. 22-23 of Not-God by Ernest Kurtz….
Is it possible that Wilson was a nontraditionalist? Yes, but only in the narrow sense of not viewing alcoholism as a physiological disease. In most other areas he was the quintessential traditionalist; he promoted the loss-of-control notion, for example, and he postulated that alcoholism was an incurable but arrestable "malady" or "illness." ….
His fundamental conviction…was that alcoholism is a spiritual disease in the metaphorical sense. On page 44 (1976 ed.) of the Big Book he describes alcoholism as "…an illness which only a spiritual experience will conquer"….
Throughout the Big Book he refers to alcoholism as an illness, malady, sickness, allergy, and craving. A.A. literature generally refers to alcoholism as a "physical, mental (or emotional), and spiritual disease," and shares with Wilson the conviction that the defining issue is spiritual.
---------------
Member
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Australia
Posts: 610
OMG!
This is why I choose to go with the disease concept. Not only does it fit for me but its so much more simple and straightforward.
I guess I identify with the allergy concept more than the disease concept, but I go with it for the sake of convenience. I figure, if I'm not sure whether or not it is a disease, then I may as well believe it is and that belief has kept me sober.
I too was beaten down to the point where I had little choice but it took a lot of intellectualising and criticism on my part to get there. I guess that made the relief of surrender all the more effective for me, I didn't have to fight to be right all of the time.
Amy
This is why I choose to go with the disease concept. Not only does it fit for me but its so much more simple and straightforward.
I guess I identify with the allergy concept more than the disease concept, but I go with it for the sake of convenience. I figure, if I'm not sure whether or not it is a disease, then I may as well believe it is and that belief has kept me sober.
I too was beaten down to the point where I had little choice but it took a lot of intellectualising and criticism on my part to get there. I guess that made the relief of surrender all the more effective for me, I didn't have to fight to be right all of the time.
Amy
Member
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: mass
Posts: 1,356
I only read your first post. Just like your eating disorder there is no cure for alcoholism but it can be stopped. See each day you learned something new about your eating disorder the same with alcohol. Alcoholism can be put in remission but never fully be cured thats what makes it a disese. As long as you not longer take a sip your dises is under control. as with as long as you dont stick your finger down your throat you will not puke. It is a working progress but if you work it it will work. so just like the disese of some canser it can be put in remission. although other forms of cancer may be cured I am speaking of the canser that is put in remission. And that I believe is why it is considered a disese
Member
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Boston
Posts: 710
Thanks Don, and I just love ya Music,
I actually spent time looking for the word "disease" in the Big Book. Well its not in there at all.
And yes, Bill Wilson didn't use the word disease for all the reasons that Don gave.
When I looked up the word "Malady".... in one dictionary it says "illness".........in another it says "disease"
So for myself........ I use the word disease/illness when I am referring to my own alcoholism.
For myself, its a disease. My own alcoholism had many signs and symptoms, it is progressive and without treatment we die.
Many many diseases have the same course and path as above.
My illness/disease is alcoholism. My course of treatment is Alcoholics Anonymous meetings and the 12 Steps.
I have an incurable disease/illness...... but not unlike many illnesses/diseases....... we can apply the treatment, and live a wonderful life.
Alcoholism is the only disease that when treated, leaves the sufferer in much much better condition than even before the disease.
How fortunate is that? VERY lol
I am with Music on this one. It matters little what we call our alcoholism... illness, disease, malady, insanity, mental illness....who cares lol What matters is what we DO about it.
I spent some time in my own head when I was new trying "figure it all out"...... the only thing that I was successful at when doing that............ was wasting time, precious time actually doing what I was suppose to be DOING. "Thinking" when I was a newcomer was the same as desperately trying to analyze, FIGURE IT OUT" and for this drunk when I was new in the halls of AA..... this kind of "thinking, thinking, thinking".....actually had the power to kill me.
I am grateful for those who were in the halls, those who have the solution and passing it on......... they were very honest with this drunk. One of the most important questions they would ask me repeatedly was this:
"So Patsy,.... how well is your way working for ya, huh?"
Yup, that one question used to stop me, right in my magnifying, analyzing, and gotta "think think think"... mind.......... real good
"Don't drink, Don't think, just get up, put your coat on and get to as many AA meetings as you can........ and take the suggestions"
Love,
Patsy
I actually spent time looking for the word "disease" in the Big Book. Well its not in there at all.
And yes, Bill Wilson didn't use the word disease for all the reasons that Don gave.
When I looked up the word "Malady".... in one dictionary it says "illness".........in another it says "disease"
So for myself........ I use the word disease/illness when I am referring to my own alcoholism.
For myself, its a disease. My own alcoholism had many signs and symptoms, it is progressive and without treatment we die.
Many many diseases have the same course and path as above.
My illness/disease is alcoholism. My course of treatment is Alcoholics Anonymous meetings and the 12 Steps.
I have an incurable disease/illness...... but not unlike many illnesses/diseases....... we can apply the treatment, and live a wonderful life.
Alcoholism is the only disease that when treated, leaves the sufferer in much much better condition than even before the disease.
How fortunate is that? VERY lol
I am with Music on this one. It matters little what we call our alcoholism... illness, disease, malady, insanity, mental illness....who cares lol What matters is what we DO about it.
I spent some time in my own head when I was new trying "figure it all out"...... the only thing that I was successful at when doing that............ was wasting time, precious time actually doing what I was suppose to be DOING. "Thinking" when I was a newcomer was the same as desperately trying to analyze, FIGURE IT OUT" and for this drunk when I was new in the halls of AA..... this kind of "thinking, thinking, thinking".....actually had the power to kill me.
I am grateful for those who were in the halls, those who have the solution and passing it on......... they were very honest with this drunk. One of the most important questions they would ask me repeatedly was this:
"So Patsy,.... how well is your way working for ya, huh?"
Yup, that one question used to stop me, right in my magnifying, analyzing, and gotta "think think think"... mind.......... real good
"Don't drink, Don't think, just get up, put your coat on and get to as many AA meetings as you can........ and take the suggestions"
Love,
Patsy
Member
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Northern CA
Posts: 1,432
Originally posted by Patsyd1
snip
What matters is what we DO about it.
I spent some time in my own head when I was new trying "figure it all out"...... the only thing that I was successful at when doing that............ was wasting time, precious time actually doing what I was suppose to be DOING. "Thinking" when I was a newcomer was the same as desperately trying to analyze, FIGURE IT OUT" and for this drunk when I was new in the halls of AA..... this kind of "thinking, thinking, thinking".....actually had the power to kill me.
I am grateful for those who were in the halls, those who have the solution and passing it on......... they were very honest with this drunk. One of the most important questions they would ask me repeatedly was this:
"So Patsy,.... how well is your way working for ya, huh?"
Yup, that one question used to stop me, right in my magnifying, analyzing, and gotta "think think think"... mind.......... real good
"Don't drink, Don't think, just get up, put your coat on and get to as many AA meetings as you can........ and take the suggestions"
Love,
Patsy
snip
What matters is what we DO about it.
I spent some time in my own head when I was new trying "figure it all out"...... the only thing that I was successful at when doing that............ was wasting time, precious time actually doing what I was suppose to be DOING. "Thinking" when I was a newcomer was the same as desperately trying to analyze, FIGURE IT OUT" and for this drunk when I was new in the halls of AA..... this kind of "thinking, thinking, thinking".....actually had the power to kill me.
I am grateful for those who were in the halls, those who have the solution and passing it on......... they were very honest with this drunk. One of the most important questions they would ask me repeatedly was this:
"So Patsy,.... how well is your way working for ya, huh?"
Yup, that one question used to stop me, right in my magnifying, analyzing, and gotta "think think think"... mind.......... real good
"Don't drink, Don't think, just get up, put your coat on and get to as many AA meetings as you can........ and take the suggestions"
Love,
Patsy
Thanks for your post. I'm quoting from it below, but I'm not debating you personally. You just did a great job of describing how many in AA apparently use the disease concept and what it means to them, so I'm snipping your words.
My purpose in posting 18 different definitions of the term was to demonstrate that the experts, for all their verbosity and profundity, have a wide variation in beliefs and opinions about alcohol use. In fact, Fox calls the definitions "opinions" and concludes that is what any description of "alcoholism" really is. So if I post a definition by Albert Ellis, or someone posts Trimpey's definition, or someone quotes from the Big Book--we are just offering our own opinions in the words of experts.
"What matters is what we do about it"--absolutely! This is an academic discussion. If alcoholism is a disease, and the cause is drinking too much, then the cure is pretty simple! Drink less. If it is a maladaptive behavior (as I believe), the solution is still the same! I doubt if I can drink less if I drink at all, so my cure is to not drink at all. That cures the symptoms, and prevents the medical conditions which would result from continued heavy drinking.
As I said, I hope delving into a debate about the meaning of the term "disease" and whether or not alcohol abuse is one doesn't distract someone from the goal of sobriety.
Every recovery system I've read about focuses on the mechanics of stopping drinking, at least early in sobriety. Where they part company is in their approaches to long-term sobriety.
But I will never understand why there's anything at all wrong with "trying to figure it out," "analyzing," or "thinking, thinking, thinking." How can understanding your motives for drinking be harmful to sobriety? How can questioning one technique or approach be harmful if it leads an individual to another one which is successful for him or her?
When I realized my drinking was a problem, I went online and looked at the different "programs" that were there. It was important to me to understand their basic philosophical underpinnings. I found some that I could relate to and others that I definitely couldn't. For many of us a rational (by which I mean science-based) approach is much more effective than a spiritual one. Perhaps if I had a religious upbringing, enhancing my commitment to sobriety would be mostly a matter of returning to those roots. But I didn't, so a spiritual basis to recovery doesn't work for me.
I believe that drinking excessively is an unhealthy --and for some people compulsive-- behavior, and that our behaviors are based on our beliefs. If we change our beliefs, we can change our behavior: that is what you DO when you come to AA or SMART or any other recovery program! You change your belief structure, adopting one which enhances your commitment to sobriety.
Anyone who tells you "don't drink" is giving you sound advice. Anyone who tells you "don't think" is encouraging you to be a follower. "This worked for me" is one thing; "this is the only way that will work for anybody" is quite another. It implies that we all have the same core beliefs. It is projecting their own experience onto your drinking behavior.
I have seen many descriptions from people who found AA meetings not merely unhelpful, but frightening and counterproductive. This isn't merely a rationalization for continued drinking (although obviously it CAN be). The concepts of powerlessness, higher power, and a rigid 12-step system do not work for many people.
If those meetings are an obstacle to sobriety, encouraging someone to continue in that direction is, in my opinion, harmful. Encouraging them to believe that there is only one approach to sobriety and they are doomed to failure if they think otherwise is, in my opinion, potentially very damaging. Encouraging them to seek out alternatives which mesh with their own beliefs--emphasizing that all such recovery systems are abstinence based!--is likely to help them start making the lifestyle changes which will succeed.
"How well is 'your way' working for ya, huh?" implies that ANY lapse proves that NO other system works. It begs the question: how well does AA work? And the answer is that no-one knows the answer to that question. No-one can say how well any recovery system will work for another person. The fact is, most people lapse once or twice (or more!) before achieving sobriety--regardless of the recovery system they use. And the majority of people who achieve sobriety do it without any organized system or group at all.
One thing I have really gained from this forum board is a more nuanced view of AA. The concepts of alcoholism as a disease, powerlessness, higher power, and the focus on meeting attendance are real obstacles for many people. Folks here have given me a much better understanding of how they apply those concepts in their individual approaches to recovery (thanks especially to phoenix, Peter, and others for taking the time to explain). These are folks who have obviously thought about it.
I have absolutely no problem with a metaphorical concept of disease, and there are certainly many physical conditions which can result from heavy drinking. On the other hand, a spiritual disease is a pretty nebulous philosophical concept! One mullah, two rabbis, three priests, and four ministers would come up with eleven different diagnostic criteria and twelve courses of treatment.
And the secular among us would be standing on the sidelines, enjoying the debate and agreeing that the answer is really pretty simple: stop drinking now.
Don S
Member
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Riverside, Ca.
Posts: 388
I have no problem with the desiese theory, But I seem to go along more with the alergy theory as described in the doctors opinion in the big book. thats how its been for me, If I have one
drink something happens and I lose control, so I just keep it simple and don't have that first drink.
those defenitions are just peoples opinions, few of whom I would call experts.
I had a simple plan for years to stop drinking now, and it worked for right now, but i would always end up drunk again , for me I had to have a program of recovery to follow to achieve long term sobriety. but whatever works for you my hat is off to you.
drink something happens and I lose control, so I just keep it simple and don't have that first drink.
those defenitions are just peoples opinions, few of whom I would call experts.
I had a simple plan for years to stop drinking now, and it worked for right now, but i would always end up drunk again , for me I had to have a program of recovery to follow to achieve long term sobriety. but whatever works for you my hat is off to you.
Member
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Boston
Posts: 710
Hi Don,
I don't see it as you debating me about anything. Ofcourse you have your own experience, and I would never attempt to even try to take that away from you, its yours....and I respect that.
What I was sharing when I said "don't think".... was a very simple truth for me when I was a newcomer to AA. My "thinking" had become so warped, rancid, and so full of resentment, anger and blame.... that I wasn't able to get honest with myself even "after" I put the booze down.
I was arrogant, and what I thought was IT... period.
That was it, there was nothing after that. I was incapable of listening, incapable of hearing anything different than what I was thinking. I took everything and I mean everything personal. I was in denial about MY WAY.... even after I put the drink and drug down.
I was the type of alcoholic, and if anyone is my type of alky.....they will identify quickly.
I couldn't get honest with me.... or you... because I completely believed what I "thought". And if someone didn't agree with me about the fact that it WAS ALL THEIR FAULT AND I WAS THE INNOCENT VICTIM....... then I simply closed my ears, folded my arms, and dug my heels in and shut you totally out.
I would tell you right to your face that you didn't understand me, or all the terrible things that this poor poor victim had been through......and therefore you couldn't possibly understand that I was different and I HAD A GOOD REASON TO DRINK. Because to this drunk it was your "thinking"...that was all BS.... certainly NOT MINE.
I had convinced myself beyond a doubt that I was "right".... and if YOU would just listen to me, then you would see that I was right.
I would listen....but I couldn't hear. I had twisted eveything and lied to myself for so long that I believed my own lies. Thats how deep the denial worked for this drunk.
I had to stop "thinking" literally .... because my "thinking" for the lack of a better word....was completely delusional, arrogant, selfish, self-centered, and off the wall. I had no idea that I was sick.... I had no idea that my "thinking" had become warped. I had no idea that insanity had set in.......and it wasn't going to budge until I became "willing" and "desperate" enough to try something else, anything else... and I had to ask for help to put my own "thinking" aside in order to do that. I knew what these people meant when they shared with me......"So Patsy... how is YOUR WAY working for ya, huh?"
I too had tried to find all kinds of ways to stop drinking on my own terms, my own thinking, my own actions... and nothing worked.
I believe today with all my heart that this is a 3 fold dis-ease.
Physical, mental and spiritual.
The spiritual part of this program is without a doubt the most important part for this alky. And no, I am not religious, I do not attend church, and I am not affliated with any religious movement at all.
Do I believe in God? Yes. Its that simple. Do I believe in AA? Yes, its that simple. It was a journey and a half for this drunk. I didn't come into the halls of AA with the ability to "think" or the ability to be "honest"
It was most definitely My "thinking" and My "Way" that not only got me here, but kept me out there drinking. I had to change the person that I brought through those doors of AA through a set of spiritual principles....... that work, if I work them.
It was desperation that brought me through those doors of AA.
And it was my "thinking" that kept me mentally and spiritually sick even "after" I put down the booze and drugs.
Was I capable of "thinking"?......oh yeah I was. That was the problem. Booze and drugs were just a symptom for this drunk. The real problem was and is ME and my "thinking"
Yes I could think..... I just wasn't capable of thinking of anyone, or anything besides "Patsy"....... literally.
So yes when it was shared with me to not "drink" and not "think"..... at some point I surrendered my "thinking" and I began to take the suggestions that I absolutely didn't agree with when I came through those doors of AA............and I stayed to learn to listen, and to listen to learn....... that MY WAY never ever worked and these people were giving me a WAY that did work.
Does that mean that I had to become THEM? Absolutely not.
Through the 12 Steps I learned who I am........ who I really am. With the help of this wonderful program and all these wonderful people who helped me to not only stay physically sober...... but they showed me a path to a life second to none.
For this I will be eternally grateful to God, to AA, the 12 Steps and all of those people who didn't hesitate to share their own Experience, Strength and Hope with this alky. They loved me until I could love myself.......and they called me on my BS too. LOL
Spirituality is an inside job. There are no substitutes for what I have been given. The answer for this drunk was much much more than not drinking..... that was only the first step for this drunk. I am grateful I stayed to learn that drinking wasn't my problem........it was just a symptom of it
Does that mean that others who are doing it differently are wrong? No, absolutely not. What it means is that I was given a way that works for this alky, I pass it on to those who want it.... and I am loving it
Love,
Patsy
I don't see it as you debating me about anything. Ofcourse you have your own experience, and I would never attempt to even try to take that away from you, its yours....and I respect that.
What I was sharing when I said "don't think".... was a very simple truth for me when I was a newcomer to AA. My "thinking" had become so warped, rancid, and so full of resentment, anger and blame.... that I wasn't able to get honest with myself even "after" I put the booze down.
I was arrogant, and what I thought was IT... period.
That was it, there was nothing after that. I was incapable of listening, incapable of hearing anything different than what I was thinking. I took everything and I mean everything personal. I was in denial about MY WAY.... even after I put the drink and drug down.
I was the type of alcoholic, and if anyone is my type of alky.....they will identify quickly.
I couldn't get honest with me.... or you... because I completely believed what I "thought". And if someone didn't agree with me about the fact that it WAS ALL THEIR FAULT AND I WAS THE INNOCENT VICTIM....... then I simply closed my ears, folded my arms, and dug my heels in and shut you totally out.
I would tell you right to your face that you didn't understand me, or all the terrible things that this poor poor victim had been through......and therefore you couldn't possibly understand that I was different and I HAD A GOOD REASON TO DRINK. Because to this drunk it was your "thinking"...that was all BS.... certainly NOT MINE.
I had convinced myself beyond a doubt that I was "right".... and if YOU would just listen to me, then you would see that I was right.
I would listen....but I couldn't hear. I had twisted eveything and lied to myself for so long that I believed my own lies. Thats how deep the denial worked for this drunk.
I had to stop "thinking" literally .... because my "thinking" for the lack of a better word....was completely delusional, arrogant, selfish, self-centered, and off the wall. I had no idea that I was sick.... I had no idea that my "thinking" had become warped. I had no idea that insanity had set in.......and it wasn't going to budge until I became "willing" and "desperate" enough to try something else, anything else... and I had to ask for help to put my own "thinking" aside in order to do that. I knew what these people meant when they shared with me......"So Patsy... how is YOUR WAY working for ya, huh?"
I too had tried to find all kinds of ways to stop drinking on my own terms, my own thinking, my own actions... and nothing worked.
I believe today with all my heart that this is a 3 fold dis-ease.
Physical, mental and spiritual.
The spiritual part of this program is without a doubt the most important part for this alky. And no, I am not religious, I do not attend church, and I am not affliated with any religious movement at all.
Do I believe in God? Yes. Its that simple. Do I believe in AA? Yes, its that simple. It was a journey and a half for this drunk. I didn't come into the halls of AA with the ability to "think" or the ability to be "honest"
It was most definitely My "thinking" and My "Way" that not only got me here, but kept me out there drinking. I had to change the person that I brought through those doors of AA through a set of spiritual principles....... that work, if I work them.
It was desperation that brought me through those doors of AA.
And it was my "thinking" that kept me mentally and spiritually sick even "after" I put down the booze and drugs.
Was I capable of "thinking"?......oh yeah I was. That was the problem. Booze and drugs were just a symptom for this drunk. The real problem was and is ME and my "thinking"
Yes I could think..... I just wasn't capable of thinking of anyone, or anything besides "Patsy"....... literally.
So yes when it was shared with me to not "drink" and not "think"..... at some point I surrendered my "thinking" and I began to take the suggestions that I absolutely didn't agree with when I came through those doors of AA............and I stayed to learn to listen, and to listen to learn....... that MY WAY never ever worked and these people were giving me a WAY that did work.
Does that mean that I had to become THEM? Absolutely not.
Through the 12 Steps I learned who I am........ who I really am. With the help of this wonderful program and all these wonderful people who helped me to not only stay physically sober...... but they showed me a path to a life second to none.
For this I will be eternally grateful to God, to AA, the 12 Steps and all of those people who didn't hesitate to share their own Experience, Strength and Hope with this alky. They loved me until I could love myself.......and they called me on my BS too. LOL
Spirituality is an inside job. There are no substitutes for what I have been given. The answer for this drunk was much much more than not drinking..... that was only the first step for this drunk. I am grateful I stayed to learn that drinking wasn't my problem........it was just a symptom of it
Does that mean that others who are doing it differently are wrong? No, absolutely not. What it means is that I was given a way that works for this alky, I pass it on to those who want it.... and I am loving it
Love,
Patsy
Member
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Northern CA
Posts: 1,432
Hi, Patsy,
That is a great description and clarifies what you were saying in a big way. Thanks very much.
If I was "translating" it into SMART Recovery jargon, I'd say that you were failing to recognize your irrational beliefs, and were not open to having them pointed out to you. Another way of describing denial, I guess.
Sometimes when someone is posting about how hard it is to quit drinking, I like to ask "why do you drink?" or "what benefit do you think drinking provides you?" Some variation of two basic responses are common:
1. I don't know why I drink. I just do. It's obvious that the costs are huge, so it must just be weak character; I'm a bad person.
This just takes a little persuasion to get them to see how they're using alcohol to cope with stress.
2. My life is awful. You have no idea and can't understand. (Detour here into a litany of what is wrong, who has harmed them, etc.).
This can be a pretty big wall of resistance to overcome!
I really appreciate your post!
Don S
That is a great description and clarifies what you were saying in a big way. Thanks very much.
If I was "translating" it into SMART Recovery jargon, I'd say that you were failing to recognize your irrational beliefs, and were not open to having them pointed out to you. Another way of describing denial, I guess.
Sometimes when someone is posting about how hard it is to quit drinking, I like to ask "why do you drink?" or "what benefit do you think drinking provides you?" Some variation of two basic responses are common:
1. I don't know why I drink. I just do. It's obvious that the costs are huge, so it must just be weak character; I'm a bad person.
This just takes a little persuasion to get them to see how they're using alcohol to cope with stress.
2. My life is awful. You have no idea and can't understand. (Detour here into a litany of what is wrong, who has harmed them, etc.).
This can be a pretty big wall of resistance to overcome!
I really appreciate your post!
Don S
Member
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Boston
Posts: 710
I really appreciate your post too Don, thank you.
For myself, I had no idea why I drank except that I felt as if I would go crazy unless I got a drink.
I heard the truth from podium when someone was sharing about the "obsession" of the mind. I remember almost losing my breath when this person described and put words to what I had been experiencing for a very long time.
This same person described the compulsion to drink.... and I remember "thinking"....... OMG thats me. He described the feelings of less then, and the inability to stop after one or two drinks, and the excuses that would just come to his mind so that he could continue to drink until he was sick, drunk and out of control. How did this person know what I was feeling and thinking.......how?
That was the first time that I knew why I drank. Because I had lost the ability to choose NOT to.
I can not tell you what that one AA member sharing from the podium that night did for this drunk. It was the first time in many many years that I didn't feel alone, crazy, and that I was just no good to the core.
This person ( and I don't even know who he was ) sharing about his own dis-ease....what happened to him, where he came from, how he got here, and what its like now....... helped me to realize that I was home..... I was finally home for the first time in my entire life
Grateful doesn't even begin to express how I feel today about this simple and yet profound program of Alcoholics Anonymous. It changed everything that night when I heard this man sharing.
He passed on to this alky, the hope that I so desperately needed.
Today I pass that same hope on from the podium..... what a gift and a miracle that is to be able to give back what was given to me so freely and lovingly........... the hope of a new way of life and all we have to do is give it away.... so that we may keep it.
So yes Don.... that is a pretty big wall of resistance that we have to overcome. I watched as others who had stopped resisting, and simply surrendered had what I wanted..... so I just kept coming.
I don't know about the Smart Program, and if it works for you then thats all that matters All I know is what took me from the depths of hell, and restored me to sanity. For this alky it was God, AA and the 12 steps.
Love
Patsy
For myself, I had no idea why I drank except that I felt as if I would go crazy unless I got a drink.
I heard the truth from podium when someone was sharing about the "obsession" of the mind. I remember almost losing my breath when this person described and put words to what I had been experiencing for a very long time.
This same person described the compulsion to drink.... and I remember "thinking"....... OMG thats me. He described the feelings of less then, and the inability to stop after one or two drinks, and the excuses that would just come to his mind so that he could continue to drink until he was sick, drunk and out of control. How did this person know what I was feeling and thinking.......how?
That was the first time that I knew why I drank. Because I had lost the ability to choose NOT to.
I can not tell you what that one AA member sharing from the podium that night did for this drunk. It was the first time in many many years that I didn't feel alone, crazy, and that I was just no good to the core.
This person ( and I don't even know who he was ) sharing about his own dis-ease....what happened to him, where he came from, how he got here, and what its like now....... helped me to realize that I was home..... I was finally home for the first time in my entire life
Grateful doesn't even begin to express how I feel today about this simple and yet profound program of Alcoholics Anonymous. It changed everything that night when I heard this man sharing.
He passed on to this alky, the hope that I so desperately needed.
Today I pass that same hope on from the podium..... what a gift and a miracle that is to be able to give back what was given to me so freely and lovingly........... the hope of a new way of life and all we have to do is give it away.... so that we may keep it.
So yes Don.... that is a pretty big wall of resistance that we have to overcome. I watched as others who had stopped resisting, and simply surrendered had what I wanted..... so I just kept coming.
I don't know about the Smart Program, and if it works for you then thats all that matters
All I know is what took me from the depths of hell, and restored me to sanity. For this alky it was God, AA and the 12 steps.Love
Patsy
Member
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Northern CA
Posts: 1,432
Hi, Patsy,
This is interesting, because to me you are describing a kind of sudden moment when you came to a new realization: a new set of beliefs that led you to change your behavior.
I've been trying to describe to people who are struggling and having lapses what makes the difference: where we get the motivation that keeps us from lapsing. It isn't some strength of moral character or difference of psychology. I believe it is just that we've made a commitment to sobriety.
Some people seem to find it helpful to make a symbolic break. Others embrace religious or spiritual beliefs to get the support, which to me is a way of reinforcing the new beliefs that are going to form the basis of our new behavior. That's one reason I feel the disease concept can be an obstacle: it can take alcohol use out of the realm of belief and choice if we take the metaphor too literally.
I think saying goodbye to alcohol is a useful thing to do. Someone wrote about writing alcohol a goodbye letter. I also like the metaphor of a love affair which you are ending. Trying to keep it going, trying to stay friends, doesn't work real well, does it? Might as well say goodbye and not look back. Last flings are unhealthy and counterproductive.
Personally, I toasted the setting sun with my last glass of wine, poured the other bottle down the sink, and knew it was the last alcohol I was going to drink.
It was just a firm new belief that I wouldn't drink again. There was a small sense of loss and a great sense of wonder that I had finally made an irreversible decision. I would describe it as an epiphany, much like what you experienced.
I understand why some people use religion at the time of this decision, because it is a new and profound belief that we have arrived at. I am not religious, but it is a similar sense of certainty. That's why we say that your behavior is based on your beliefs, and that if you change your beliefs you can change your behavior.
That is why I believe that successful sobriety is based on commitment rather than just on fervent desire. We can want and want and want to stop drinking, but until we BELIEVE that it has no useful part in our lives, that the costs far outweigh the benefits, and that we might as well stop trying to negotiate permission for ourselves--until then, we haven't made that commitment.
Early in my sobriety I came across this simple summary, and I've found it very useful....
People who succeed at sobriety generally have three characteristics:
1. A commitment to abstinence;
2. They plan and practice for urges;
3. They make lifestyle changes to enhance their new choices.
I believe that early sobriety, regardless of the "system", usually focuses on the last two characteristics. Lapses usually result when we stumble in those two areas, and they are certainly the topic of many threads on this forum board and the SMART forum board.
But long-term sobriety comes from the commitment to abstinence, which is based on new and profound beliefs about the role of alcohol in our lives. You can get there with support from others, but in my opinion it is a new set of beliefs that ultimately you come to yourself. I firmly agree that we can help others just by describing how we arrived at our new beliefs, and by suggesting tools for enhancing sobriety. Then each person can choose a path.
Thanks for posting!
Don S
This is interesting, because to me you are describing a kind of sudden moment when you came to a new realization: a new set of beliefs that led you to change your behavior.
I've been trying to describe to people who are struggling and having lapses what makes the difference: where we get the motivation that keeps us from lapsing. It isn't some strength of moral character or difference of psychology. I believe it is just that we've made a commitment to sobriety.
Some people seem to find it helpful to make a symbolic break. Others embrace religious or spiritual beliefs to get the support, which to me is a way of reinforcing the new beliefs that are going to form the basis of our new behavior. That's one reason I feel the disease concept can be an obstacle: it can take alcohol use out of the realm of belief and choice if we take the metaphor too literally.
I think saying goodbye to alcohol is a useful thing to do. Someone wrote about writing alcohol a goodbye letter. I also like the metaphor of a love affair which you are ending. Trying to keep it going, trying to stay friends, doesn't work real well, does it? Might as well say goodbye and not look back. Last flings are unhealthy and counterproductive.
Personally, I toasted the setting sun with my last glass of wine, poured the other bottle down the sink, and knew it was the last alcohol I was going to drink.
It was just a firm new belief that I wouldn't drink again. There was a small sense of loss and a great sense of wonder that I had finally made an irreversible decision. I would describe it as an epiphany, much like what you experienced.
I understand why some people use religion at the time of this decision, because it is a new and profound belief that we have arrived at. I am not religious, but it is a similar sense of certainty. That's why we say that your behavior is based on your beliefs, and that if you change your beliefs you can change your behavior.
That is why I believe that successful sobriety is based on commitment rather than just on fervent desire. We can want and want and want to stop drinking, but until we BELIEVE that it has no useful part in our lives, that the costs far outweigh the benefits, and that we might as well stop trying to negotiate permission for ourselves--until then, we haven't made that commitment.
Early in my sobriety I came across this simple summary, and I've found it very useful....
People who succeed at sobriety generally have three characteristics:
1. A commitment to abstinence;
2. They plan and practice for urges;
3. They make lifestyle changes to enhance their new choices.
I believe that early sobriety, regardless of the "system", usually focuses on the last two characteristics. Lapses usually result when we stumble in those two areas, and they are certainly the topic of many threads on this forum board and the SMART forum board.
But long-term sobriety comes from the commitment to abstinence, which is based on new and profound beliefs about the role of alcohol in our lives. You can get there with support from others, but in my opinion it is a new set of beliefs that ultimately you come to yourself. I firmly agree that we can help others just by describing how we arrived at our new beliefs, and by suggesting tools for enhancing sobriety. Then each person can choose a path.
Thanks for posting!
Don S
Member
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Boston
Posts: 710
I've been trying to describe to people who are struggling and having lapses what makes the difference: where we get the motivation that keeps us from lapsing. It isn't some strength of moral character or difference of psychology. I believe it is just that we've made a commitment to sobriety.
The gift of desperation.
The motivation that kept me from relapsing initially is when I was speaking to this gentleman from AA (my drinking buddy's brother) on the phone, before my first AA meeting.
He asked me if I believed in God, I said that I didn't want to go there .... lol
He then asked me if I believed that there was anything out there that was more powerful then ME? I responded "I guess so, there must be"....
This gentleman then suggested that when I get off the phone, to get down on my knees and ask what ever is out there to help me to stay away from a drink or a drug for that one day, and then at night before going to bed, to get down on my knees and thank whatever power is out there.....that I didn't drink or drug that one day.
I did that and I continue to do that daily. And the obsession to drink was lifted from me immediately, right then. I realize this doesn't happen for everyone, but this is what happened to me.
I then became totally obsessed with fear and worry about why I wasn't "obsessing" about drinking lol
I was scared out of my mind that those thoughts would return any moment now. I had no reason to believe that they wouldn't, they had been my one constant companion with booze and drugs for 17 to 19 years.
This same gentleman said to me "Patsy, if the obsession to drink has been lifted..... why not just enjoy it and simply say thank you to what ever is out there
" Oh wow, what a concept LOLAt the end of my drinking I didn't believe in anything, or anyone anymore, I had made no commitment to sobriety. What I did have was the "gift" of desperation and I was full of fear.
It was the following night that I was taken to my first AA meeting. And yes, what I heard from the podium shocked me to my core. I still kept playing in my own head about whether I was an alcoholic or a drug addict though.. lol
What did have a profound change on me was when I would sit at my best friends table (my drinking buddy's table), after the AA meeting..... and this gentleman from AA would share his experience, stength and hope with us both. He wouldn't argue with me, he wouldn't debate with me, he wouldn't tell me anything about me or my drinking at all. He would simply share where he came from, how he got here, and what it was like now.
I thought he was totally nuts at first. LOL
Today I see it as God putting him into my life for a reason.
Today my best friend (drinking buddy) and I share the same sobriety date, the same first AA meeting, and neither of us, God willing, have taken a drink or a drug since our very first AA meeting 12/3/88............ now thats a miracle.
Her brother, Chris F, the gentleman who 12 Stepped us both..... died shortly after handing us both.... our one year sober medallion.
When I got here to the halls of AA...... I believed in nothing.....NOTHING.
Today I believe with all my heart and soul that God puts people into our lives for a reason. At one point this wonderful gentleman Chris F. simply shared with me..... "Patsy, its ok if you don't believe yet..... just believe that I believe"
Well I did believe that he believed, and I knew that I wanted what he had. A way of life that I had only dreamed of before that phone call, and attending AA meetings, working and applying the 12 steps, peace of mind, and a deep serenity in his heart and soul. He gave away to me, what was given to him.... a way of living one day at a time, knowing that what ever happens.... is suppose to happen..... Thank God.
Today I simply describe what made the difference for this drunk, because everyone is different, and what makes the difference for someone else, may not be what made the difference for me.
I simply share with them how I felt, where I came from, how I got here, and what its like now. What made the difference for this drunk. If they identify.... great. If they don't....thats ok, its all in God's time....not mine.
I can not keep anyone sober, nor can I make anyone drink. I can not save anyone, and I do not even try. I am simply not that powerful today....... Thank God.
Thank you Don, I really enjoy reading what you have to share.
Love
Patsy
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Florham Park, nj
Posts: 85
Patsy, I just read your post. Wow...that was truly inspirational. I believe in God too. I believe God not only uses people that believe but that do not as well. His tools of proper thinking apply with Don's philosophy. Don, I know you don't believe in God but alot what you say is God's design as well. Thanks to both of you.
Member
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Riverside, Ca.
Posts: 388
Wow
I could barely function when I stubled into the detox center when I quit, its good to see some people quit while they still have the ability to rationalize, and don't have to go as far down as some of us did.
I could barely function when I stubled into the detox center when I quit, its good to see some people quit while they still have the ability to rationalize, and don't have to go as far down as some of us did.
Member
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Charleston S.C.
Posts: 1,461
Hi Bradley, I can identify with your thoughts about the alcohol problem. I am glad you are identifing that there is some kind of problem. I wish you well in what ever choice you make to deal with it.However, I'd like to add that I had the same thinking argument in my head for years. In my case I think I was trying to make it an intelectual problem in the hopes I would be smart enough to beat
alcohol. I now accept the disease concept in the sense that I have problems that I treated with alcohol.
Once I got of alcohol I needed prescribed medication to treat these problems. I was unable to deal with these problems drinking. It is sort of like the PTSD I am treated for. There are many the went to Vietnam and saw as much action as I did. Yet, they came back and led a normal life. I really believe in the chemical make up of us with the problem. The bottom line is that after all the thinking and all the
wondering I still in the end had the problem. A patient with cancer can read and search for all the reasons he has cancer but, what ever he finds he still has cancer. There are many programs out there, some approach it with your angle. I would suggest you use some program while you search for answers.
Sort of taking a job you may not like to pay the bills while you look for a better job. Just don't drink and hang in there. Don W
alcohol. I now accept the disease concept in the sense that I have problems that I treated with alcohol.
Once I got of alcohol I needed prescribed medication to treat these problems. I was unable to deal with these problems drinking. It is sort of like the PTSD I am treated for. There are many the went to Vietnam and saw as much action as I did. Yet, they came back and led a normal life. I really believe in the chemical make up of us with the problem. The bottom line is that after all the thinking and all the
wondering I still in the end had the problem. A patient with cancer can read and search for all the reasons he has cancer but, what ever he finds he still has cancer. There are many programs out there, some approach it with your angle. I would suggest you use some program while you search for answers.
Sort of taking a job you may not like to pay the bills while you look for a better job. Just don't drink and hang in there. Don W
Member
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Zion, Illinois
Posts: 3,411
Bottom line here I think is that if I went to a doctor and he said I had cancer, I might ask for proof but I doubt I would try to prove him wrong by arguing with him. Leave it to a drunk to argue with the disease concept of alcoholism. Probably because alcoholism doesn't show up on an Xray.
I stopped arguing and wondering about it years ago because I knew for sure alcoholism was there....Xray or not, and after all, I don't care if it's a disease as long as I'm sober.
Like Don, I went through a time making a big deal about...is it a disease...or is it not a disease? Do I have to write a fourth step or is a verbal fourth step enough? It took my sponsor to "suggest" that I was trying to come up with some kind of trick to beat the program to bring home the point that it doesn't matter whether or not it's a disease....I'VE GOT IT!!" Stop playing around or the disease will get me.
I stopped arguing and wondering about it years ago because I knew for sure alcoholism was there....Xray or not, and after all, I don't care if it's a disease as long as I'm sober.
Like Don, I went through a time making a big deal about...is it a disease...or is it not a disease? Do I have to write a fourth step or is a verbal fourth step enough? It took my sponsor to "suggest" that I was trying to come up with some kind of trick to beat the program to bring home the point that it doesn't matter whether or not it's a disease....I'VE GOT IT!!" Stop playing around or the disease will get me.
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