justsomeguy

Here are my thoughts..

I'm so much of an egomaniac that I think asking my friends in AA might sway them to my side of thinking which I don't want!

1. If God is responsible for our being sober.. if we did not "do it" if it was "god that kept us sober" why the hell do we congratulate people and celebrate Birthdays??

2. If God is what keeps us from the first drink, is AA implying that Alcohol is more powerful than god? As we all know as alcoholics after the first drink we're F'd. It's downhill from there. If we leave it up to god why can't he stop the second? Why can't God make us drink "normal".

3. How can I want what someone in AA has, when what I want is control of my life. I want to be able to control "NOT DRINKING". AA teaches us we will never have control, we have to leave it up to god? That's not what I want.

I'm a very unwilling pissed off Athiest. I don't like being atheist, I hate it. But it's like believing in the easter bunny to me, It sounds like a wonderful belief I just can't ..

I'm scared to death I'm going to end up like one of the people my sponser talks about... he says... Some people are just going to have to die.

is that me?

smacked

I wont attempt to touch your questions... I can only share my experience.

I am an athiest. I don't use AA in my recovery. I do participate actively in my recovery, however.. and I am sober and have been for around 14 months.

If I let "the God thing" keep me drunk, that was on me... I had to do what I had to do to get and stay sober, that was and remains number one.

Maybe someone can come around and debate all this for a few pages, but I don't know that spending your energy on what you don't like about a program will be any help to your recovery or continued sobriety.. ya know?

sugErspun

I think you are going in with a definition of what "god" is, that can be dangerous...

But your points:

1: I do not enjoy being congratulated for something I was not able to do on my own. Credit is given where credit is due. I do not take cakes, nor collect chips when a certain day of the year comes...I agree with you on this one.

2: The answer to your question is clearly outlined in "The Doctor's Opinion", give it a read. Short summary - alcoholics have a unique physical reaction to alcohol, so the only answer is to not drink. Being that it is impossible for me to "just not drink", when someone offers up a way of getting to a point where there is no longer a choice in the matter (as if I was just making poor decision time and again)..I readily gave up my way of thinking and decided to commit myself to the process..if it didn't work, then I really didn't lose anything. If it does work - the only way to find out is by doing...maybe doing things I don't like (Ie - praying to a god I don't believe in).

3: You are assuming that AA members do not have control of their lives? Free will is not lost in the process. Somewhere my idea of "control" changed.

I had to be willing to trust in something, that is where it started. Something more than the "me" that couldn't manage. All I wanted was to be normal, though there was nothing normal about my life.

If you want control of your life, than why don't you just take control? Why are you different than someone else who had a drinking problem and decided to quit? If you cannot do these things..perhaps an open mind, a willingness to try something you don't believe in would help. Certainly, if you don't believe in "god" (once again - it sounds to me as if you have an idea of what god is. I am a firm believer that there is much more than my body and mind and power can be tapped from within, I cannot tell you what god is, because that is something you experience..as real and as practical as breathing)...but, if you don't believe in God, it isn't going to hurt you to slowly go through the second step asking yourself the questions and answering them honestly to YOURSELF.

Hit me up if you have any questions...this is such a simple thing, really.

littlebluedog

Maybe you're over thinking things. Keep it simple.

justsomeguy

thanks smacked, but I really don't want to debate, I want to be convinced. I like to argue, but I don't like to argue athiesim, i really really hate it.

I actually like the AA meetings I go to. alot. I'm just afraid they are offering something tha doesn't "click" with me.

I feel like I need to do this myself but they say that can't be done... so... I'm really really worried.

I have a lot of stuff today, I don't know how I havn't lost it yet. business, money, but the dark side is I'm probably not far away from being on the street.

Ago

this may sound like I'm being facetious or an ******** but I'm really not

Stop thinking, your thinking is what got you here, it's flawed

smacked

Well I hope you at least know it's not AA or nothin..There's as many programs/treatments/ways to go about living sober as there are folks who want to be sober.

Like I said, I am very active in my recovery.. I absolutely got help, treatment, work on my growth as a person and as a sober person, every day. I just didn't use AA. No way in hell I could have done it alone..

justsomeguy

thanks a lot sugar, that helps. I know I need to not think about this too much, and just try to walk and my head will follow, but I can't help but over analyze EVERYTHING..

alcoholic in me I guess.

justanothrdrunk

1. One's HP alone won't keep them sober. One has to follow the will of their HP in addition to working a program. The congratulations part of it is about one who has done the work they are capable of doing themself, plus listening to their HP.

2. AA doesn't imply that alcohol is more powerful than one's HP. What we have is a choice - to listen to or to ignore the will of our HP. I know that with regard to my HP, it doesn't "stop" anything. I choose to listen. As far as drinking normally - it's either because my HP doesn't think I need to drink normally, or it's not within my HP's power to allow me to drink normally. No one said your HP needs to be the greatest power in the universe. HP need only be greater than oneself. I'm not capable of drinking normally, and it's possible (since my HP is not necessarily the greatest power in the universe) that it's not within the capability of my HP either.

3. First - what one wants and what one needs aren't necessarily the same thing. Second, don't over-think what you can and can't control and remember that everyone is capable of listening to their HP and following directions.

You sound a lot like I used to be with regard to god, HP, whatever. One thing that helped me tremendously is that I gave up the idea that my HP had to be the greatest power in the universe - this omnipotent, all powerful being that christians and other religions teach. The BB says that my HP need only be greater than me. And when I ask myself what it takes to be greater than me, I can safely say that it doesn't take much.

Did my HP create the universe in six days? Nope. Did my HP part the Red Sea? Nope. Does my HP help me get what I need when I need it? Yes. And that's all my HP is capable (or needs to be capable) of for me.

CarolD

Why not check out this Forum?

Spirituality - SoberRecovery : Alcoholism Drug Addiction Help and Information

That might be a good place to find answers
that you can live with.

Mark75

I kept bangin' my head against a wall.... trying to make myself not want to drink.... I tried to not let it bother me that others could do what I wanted to, but they could do it without consequence, and they do so at appropriate times and in sane amounts.... I am definitely more of a Dr. Bob than a Bill W. ....

So, how to find serenity... ?

Just give it up to God... I am who I am, one of the things I am, out of many, is an alcoholic... acceptance.... So I just abdicated my choice to God when it comes to the drinking thing.... Some could say I no longer "get" to choose, I say I no longer rely on "having" to make that choice.... It's liberating, actually....

And...

.....What Ago said....

You know, I am a smart, reasonably well educated guy.... I try all the time to figure this sh1t out.... I can't.... So I quit trying.... So now, I have some serenity.

Mark

NoMoBeer

My opinion (just mine) is that you are over-thinking this.

My sponsor's sponsor's sponsor (yes, he's an old fart) says someone told him, when he was wrestling with the God thing, "quit worrying about it so much."

True. Sounds to me like you need to get with your sponsor and go back to step 1. You just aren't there yet if you still want the control. Not trying to be a wise guy, just keep it simple.

a. we were alcoholics and could not manage our own lives.
b. probably no human power could have relieved our alcoholism.
c. God could and would if he were sought.

You don't have to have a super accurate, spot on definition of "God," but just know there is a power great than yourself... I mean... you don't run the world, do you? Some power does. Otherwise, we'd be in complete chaos. (hey, that sounds like my life before I got sober, when I was in charge).

Keep it simple, that's what I needed to do. I still tend to be an over-thinker in a lot of areas, but when I can keep things simple and let them work (and do the work I need to do) -- things turn out OK.

Just my 2 cents...

NMB

keithj

I know how you feel, justsome. I rebelled against reliance on a higher power. It was my biggest hurdle in taking the 12 Steps. And I got over that hurdle by being hopeless and desperate.

That's my story, alright. Faced with alcoholic destruction, I got open-minded in a hurry.

You don't have to take the steps like I have done. You don't have to use AA. You don't have to believe in anything. Just like you, the years of trying to get sober on my own were adding up for me. I couldn't go on any longer. I dropped down, exhausted, and surrendered to AA's program of recovery. I took the steps as best I could only because I was out of options. And I recovered. And I live my life with the certain knowledge of a higher power in that life. For a life-long atheist, that's a tough thing to wrap my head around. But I can't deny the success of it.

biravatch65

AA doesn't say that you can't do it yourself. AA says that if you can't do it yourself, we have a solution for you.

ElegantlyWasted

Hope I'm not opening a can of worm here, but to my line of thinking athiesm is the exact same thing as believing in god. Both require faith in the existence/nonexistence of something that can not be scientifically proven. Yin/yang analogy is applicable here I think. Just as procrastination is basically the same as workaholism. I've come to see AA and other CBT based programs as a healthy Clockwork Orange in that they don't destroy one concept of self, but rather open you up to where you really are and teaches you how to grow in a meaningful way and relate more effectively to others. Just my take. Surrender makes sense to me. Sounds like you are still fighting it. Just don't use and give it a shot. Debate for me is fun and educational when I'm sober, when I drank I had to "win" and just got possed at people for not getting "it".

tomvlll

I love questions like these. These are the kinds of questions I had to answer before I could begin to grasp the AA program. Also , I am working with a newcomer and I am cerain he has these types of "God' questions.

I'll take a crack. Remember, these are all my OPINIONS.

1. I think you are listening to somebody ELSE's concept of God. I've heard that phrasing quite often in the rooms of AA and I don't agree with it.

God did not nudge me into AA. I stay sober by tapping into a higher power/God. That higher power was always there and had I not made a decision to tap into it, I would have died an alcoholic death. The big mistake that humans make is trying turn God into a human. If I did that, I would think God was a real Pri%cK, becuase he routinely lets people die of alcoholism.

Man was 'cursed' by being born with a free will .
That free will is our downfall at times. You have the CHOICE between a spirtual life or an alcoholic death. If you don't choose the former you will surely suffer the latter.

...more later

pennylane2009

Justsomeguy: These are questions I've pondered as well, so I'll try to tackle them for you. For the record, I use AA as a part of my recovery, but it is not the entire thing. I don't do the 12 steps, but I go to meetings and accept applause and chips when I get to "birthdays", and like sitting around the table talking to other drunks about what they're doing to make their lives healthier. (I, too, am an athiest, but I'm happy to be one. That doesn't mean I believe there is nothing beyond us; I just don't believe that there's some guy sitting on a cloud watching us.)

> 1. If God is responsible for our being sober.. if we did not "do it" if it was "god that kept us sober" why the hell do we congratulate people and celebrate Birthdays??

I dunno. I think we did do it, and therefore should pat ourselves on the back heartily. And allow others to congratulate us as well. Not everyone can or will go down this road, so kudos to you and me and everyone on SR for doing it. Yay us!

> 2. If God is what keeps us from the first drink, is AA implying that Alcohol is more powerful than god? As we all know as alcoholics after the first drink we're F'd. It's downhill from there. If we leave it up to god why can't he stop the second? Why can't God make us drink "normal".

I disagree with AA on this one, and I think it's kind of harmful to people and helps the alcohol industry keep doing what they do without question. What if we were to admit that it's drinking too much that makes someone an alcoholic? What if we all agreed to the idea that it's drinking too much for too long that starts off the alcoholism path, and it gets progressively worse? Instead of essentially "blaming" the alcoholic's body for having some haywired gene, couldn't we say it's at least in part behavioral? And that the alcohol industry encourages that behavior with their constant beer commercials and fancy liquor bottles and even how bars light their liquor shelves to make it seem like a shelf full of exotic candy?

Once we've crossed over into the land of alcoholism, it's our responsibility to not drink the first drink, or the second. And maybe it's the alcohol industry's responsibility to stop advertising the heck out of alcohol (like, maybe they could have the same restrictions put in place as the cigarette industry has, ie, no TV commercials? No promoting the product like it's something that makes you cool and sexy? No making products that appeal to kids, like bright fruity drinks or things labeled "lemonade.")

BUT, all that said, I do think there's something to be said for realizing your brain doesn't work quite right. Maybe it's the influence of the alcohol that is clouding your judgement, or the years of a bad behavioral pattern you've never broken, and maybe coming to meetings and realizing the way you've done things for years now hasn't been working and it's time to try something new. That means giving up the idea that you have all the answers, and listening for a change. Tough to do.

> 3. How can I want what someone in AA has, when what I want is control of my life. I want to be able to control "NOT DRINKING". AA teaches us we will never have control, we have to leave it up to god? That's not what I want.

I think this comes down to the "is my mind working the way it should be?" question. As you're trying to break an addiction, listening and watching what other people are doing can help you find the way out, instead of relying on your wonky brain to figure it all out. Plus, part of living life to the fullest is realizing we don't have control over everything. You can accept that lack of control as an atheist -- you don't need to believe in a higher power to realize the world is not run by a joystick, nor is it run by the amount of time you spend worrying about it. Nor does it get any better or in control when you're flat out drunk.

Thanks for bringing this up. It has helped me flesh out how I've been feeling about some of these issues.

justsomeguy

I need to "STOP THINKING" is probably the answer.... I wish there was a simple switch!

NoMoBeer

HA! If you find that switch, let me know, because I could use it once in a while...

The slower version of that 'switch,' which takes some work -- is to work the 12 Steps of AA. And then keep working them...

NMB

Asta1

I too am an atheist, altho at times I think agnostic may be a better "label." I went to AA every day for a month while in rehab many years ago. I found turned off by the whole thing because of the Higher Power thing. But really, take what you can from AA. If you like the camaraderie, go. Just ignore what doesn't suit you and use what you want. I am a live and let live type of person, not prone to arguing ideas because I think everyone is entitled to theirs and certainly I have no right to try to convert them to mine. A Higher Power is not going to help you stay sober in my opinion. Only your conscious free will can do that. If you are like me once you take that first or second drink, that free will doesn't seem to lead you in the sober direction -- just to another drink to try to get that feeling we all remember and wish we could have again. Unfortunately for me, that feeling turns ugly after more than a few and the after effects are so UGLY. Day 1 is a start. Good luck.