What do recovering alcoholics think of "moderation management"?
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Originally Posted by DaveBB164 
Its not the program that does not work for the person its the person who does not work for the program.
I think your kind of view is dangerous. I have seen people in AA work their socks off on the program only to go back to drinking. Declaring them the failure as opposed to the program failing just adds to their problem.
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Originally Posted by kurtrambis
I would have to disagree that this isn't always true and statistics back this up. Most people who recover have a moment of clarity what they do after it, program or no program is often irrelevant.
I think your kind of view is dangerous. I have seen people in AA work their socks off on the program only to go back to drinking. Declaring them the failure as opposed to the program failing just adds to their problem.
I think your kind of view is dangerous. I have seen people in AA work their socks off on the program only to go back to drinking. Declaring them the failure as opposed to the program failing just adds to their problem.
by the way I never said they are a failure, I just said they had not worked for the program, i.e completely given themselves to it,
I went back drinking because I believed the program involved meeting attendance and fellowship and that's it, I have never seen anyone who works this program on a daily basis return to drinking.
I hardly define something that will save your life if you submit completely to the process as dangerous.
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Originally Posted by DaveBB164
What statistics?, the program works flawlessly on alcoholism, it depends what you define as the program as there are many definitions,
by the way I never said they are a failure, I just said they had not worked for the program, i.e completely given themselves to it,
I went back drinking because I believed the program involved meeting attendance and fellowship and that's it, I have never seen anyone who works this program on a daily basis return to drinking.
by the way I never said they are a failure, I just said they had not worked for the program, i.e completely given themselves to it,
I went back drinking because I believed the program involved meeting attendance and fellowship and that's it, I have never seen anyone who works this program on a daily basis return to drinking.
depression
bi polar
schizophrenia
post traumatic disorder
or any other mental illness which can cause people to drink alcoholically.
Many people do just attend meetings and remain sober, for you it didn't work and I am glad you have found something does work. What you did doesn't work for everybody.
I think fellowship attendance is more successful than what you think in maintaining long term sobriety.
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Join Date: Mar 2009
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Originally Posted by kurtrambis
So if the program (12 steps) works flawlessly on alcoholism then it cures people of
depression
bi polar
schizophrenia
post traumatic disorder
or any other mental illness which can cause people to drink alcoholically.
Many people do just attend meetings and remain sober, for you it didn't work and I am glad you have found something does work. What you did doesn't work for everybody.
I think fellowship attendance is more successful than what you think in maintaining long term sobriety.
depression
bi polar
schizophrenia
post traumatic disorder
or any other mental illness which can cause people to drink alcoholically.
Many people do just attend meetings and remain sober, for you it didn't work and I am glad you have found something does work. What you did doesn't work for everybody.
I think fellowship attendance is more successful than what you think in maintaining long term sobriety.
I said it works on alcoholism flawlessly, I would not go to AA if I only suffered post traumatic stress disorder, if schizophrenia was the cause of my alcoholism and I got treatment for that then my drinking would stop would nt it?
AA treats alcoholism anything other than alcoholism should be treated by the right kind of people with experience of that illness.
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Originally Posted by kurtrambis
There is no program that works for me. Only medication helps. It may be grim but that's the reality of most alcoholics who quit drinking. Programs don't stop people drinking, people deciding enough is enough.
I also believe that people stop drinking of their own accord. Many here will agree on that point, but maintenance is essential for recovery and continued abstinence. I had decided several times that "enough is enough"...but having that mentality wasn’t enough. Depression got in the way…now that I’m taking care of that with meds and therapy I’m solid.
Originally Posted by kurtrambis
Soon as we face up to this reality then we can start to study spontaneous remission and look at how people really do recover. Instead of treatment industries, AA etc. taking credit for many people who would have recovered anyway.
I didn’t recover on my own. My journey began here at SR over a year ago.
Originally Posted by kurtrambis
I'm afraid I trust statistics more than I do people personal stories, shares as you put it. If I trusted personal stories I would be taking sugar coated pills for depression. So I think me quoting statistics has as much value as people sharing their experiences.
That being said, any number of people here could be lying about their stories. It's easy to tell who is doing that if you hang around here for a while...something said won't add up. I stick close to the people I trust here and they help keep me afloat.
Originally Posted by kurtrambis
The thing that helped me the most was the fellowship of the AA,
not the program. Unfortunately my favourite local group has now been invaded by big book thumpers (ie somebody who says 12 steps is the only way and you can't be in AA if you don't do the 12 steps) they dominate the group.
not the program. Unfortunately my favourite local group has now been invaded by big book thumpers (ie somebody who says 12 steps is the only way and you can't be in AA if you don't do the 12 steps) they dominate the group.
Originally Posted by kurtrambis
Again, statistics prove effectiveness not peoples shares bamboozle. Soon as
people understand this then people who claim 12 steps is the only way and it works 100% of the time will have less power in meetings from driving people out from the otherwise excellent fellowship of AA.
people understand this then people who claim 12 steps is the only way and it works 100% of the time will have less power in meetings from driving people out from the otherwise excellent fellowship of AA.
I can only share what works for me. There are plenty of different stories around here. That’s pretty much the point of this forum…personal shares.
Originally Posted by kurtrambis
I know the above isn't much comfort to a newly sober person but eventually they are going to have to face up to this reality. I don't want to discourage people from seeking treatment as it does work for some people.
Statistics don’t matter to me…only results. I finally reached out for the help I desperately needed and I’m doing so much better now.
Originally Posted by kurtrambis
Maybe I should end on positive note. I believe anybody new reading this forum and hence this post has already taken a big step in tackling their problem.
Half of people who drink will eventually quit.
There are many treatment options and constant research is meaning more and more tools are being developed to tackle addictions.
The internet is great resource and again people reading this have access to this great invention.
Also if you are constant relapser like me who may be inclined to think they may never quit.
I have recently heard many shares from people in AA who thought the same and now have long term sobriety.
Half of people who drink will eventually quit.
There are many treatment options and constant research is meaning more and more tools are being developed to tackle addictions.
The internet is great resource and again people reading this have access to this great invention.
Also if you are constant relapser like me who may be inclined to think they may never quit.
I have recently heard many shares from people in AA who thought the same and now have long term sobriety.
Why do you think you may never quit? If you’re not happy with AA you can always try something else. There are plenty of options out there.
My “program” is of my own making. It’s not exactly structured, but it does keep me accountable. I go to therapy regularly and I’m very honest there and here at SR. I know that I’m responsible for my sobriety and for my happiness. I never thought it was possible to feel this good. I wish you the best, Kurt.
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Originally Posted by DaveBB164
Kurt,
I said it works on alcoholism flawlessly, I would not go to AA if I only suffered post traumatic stress disorder, if schizophrenia was the cause of my alcoholism and I got treatment for that then my drinking would stop would nt it?
AA treats alcoholism anything other than alcoholism should be treated by the right kind of people with experience of that illness.
I said it works on alcoholism flawlessly, I would not go to AA if I only suffered post traumatic stress disorder, if schizophrenia was the cause of my alcoholism and I got treatment for that then my drinking would stop would nt it?
AA treats alcoholism anything other than alcoholism should be treated by the right kind of people with experience of that illness.
Now in order for me to maintain sobriety I have to have control over depression. That's when the fellowship comes in it helps, the laughter, the friendship, the support, the community, seeing people recover etc. I am not alone in being somebody who suffers from depression and goes to AA.
Treatment for depression isn't perfect. It can be a long trial and error business.
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I have read and like a lot of your posts bam. You seem to have misunderstood me, written english isn't my strong point!
In saying I trust statistics more than shares I am not accusing anybody of lying.
To put it simplistically.
Advertise a cure for alcoholism
take 200 alcoholics
split them into 2 groups of 100
do nothing to 1 of the groups
In the other group give them a dummy pill.
analyse who is sober after 1 year, 5 years etc.
Both groups have 5 people sober. Obviously the pill hasn't cured (made them abstain) but naturally the 5 in the group that took the pill will be convinced that it was the pill has made them stop drinking.
So when looking at the effectiveness of any treatment this phenomena has to be taken into account.
I agree that looking at 1 statistical survey on its own has biases. I have looked at many. Sf girl, has posted the highly regraded MATCH (although it does have it critics)
Bait and Switch in Project MATCH
Anyway enough of stats you don't like them.
You ask why do I think I will never quit?
I do think I will eventually quit for good. I was just pointing one of the benefits of me going to AA in reinforcing this idea. It is my beleive that for me the best treatment to deal with my alcoholism and maintaining long term sobriety, apart from my medication, is the fellowship of AA. The rest is up to me. Hence I will continue to use AA and the great people in it.
Just wish there was a rational based alternative to equal it. I wish you the best to bam and thanks for sharing your experience.
In saying I trust statistics more than shares I am not accusing anybody of lying.
To put it simplistically.
Advertise a cure for alcoholism
take 200 alcoholics
split them into 2 groups of 100
do nothing to 1 of the groups
In the other group give them a dummy pill.
analyse who is sober after 1 year, 5 years etc.
Both groups have 5 people sober. Obviously the pill hasn't cured (made them abstain) but naturally the 5 in the group that took the pill will be convinced that it was the pill has made them stop drinking.
So when looking at the effectiveness of any treatment this phenomena has to be taken into account.
I agree that looking at 1 statistical survey on its own has biases. I have looked at many. Sf girl, has posted the highly regraded MATCH (although it does have it critics)
Bait and Switch in Project MATCH
Anyway enough of stats you don't like them.
You ask why do I think I will never quit?
I do think I will eventually quit for good. I was just pointing one of the benefits of me going to AA in reinforcing this idea. It is my beleive that for me the best treatment to deal with my alcoholism and maintaining long term sobriety, apart from my medication, is the fellowship of AA. The rest is up to me. Hence I will continue to use AA and the great people in it.
Just wish there was a rational based alternative to equal it. I wish you the best to bam and thanks for sharing your experience.
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Originally Posted by kurtrambis
Just wish there was a rational based alternative to equal it. I wish you the best to bam and thanks for sharing your experience.
If there were SMART meetings near me I'd check 'em out. I don't know if you have anything like that where you are.
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Location: The Beautiful Inner Banks of NC
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Though this has nothing to do with the OP, we seemed to have veered a bit off course, I'll throw my 2 cents on the current discussion.
I think the primary difference of opinion is whether alcoholism or probably more accurately, addiction, is a "disease" unto itself, or a symptom of an underlying disorder. It is possible that both may be true, depending on the person. For myself, and I only speak for me, I feel my addiction to alcohol and marajuana is a symptom of underlying issues I have not dealt with. Instead of dealing with these issues, depression, anxiety, sexual abuse, shame, guilt, etc., I have chosen to numb myself to them. This has in turn made many of these issues worse. I feel that my addictions are a symptom of my underlying issues, not the cause of them. Until I learn and utilize more positive coping skills to deal with these issues, I will probably not get any better.
There is no doubt that 12-step programs help many people, and if you really look at the steps, they deal with helping with many of the issues I mentioned above. Thus, I feel that "working the steps" can have a positive effect on many of the above issues, however they are a mix of chemical and emotional issues, for me at least. No matter how sober I stay, I may still have major depression issues that can only be dealt with through medication, and possibly therapy. Personally I haven't really been able to remain completely sober long enough to thoughly test this theory, but I believe it to be true.
I've come to the conclusion that my biggest problem with AA and 12-step programs is trust. I don't trust anyone. I don't trust myself. I certainly don't trust a group of, albeit, well meaning strangers. This is my issue. I have started seeing a new theripist recently and I'm going "all in" on this one. I am going to trust her, completely. She has been recommended by several sources indepentant of each other. I've met with her several times before I made this decision, and I feel that in order for any progress to be made it is what I have to do.
So now that I've derailed this thread even more from it's original purpose, let me close with this. I think cancer is a good comparision to addiction. Both will eventually be fatal. Both take many different forms and require many different treatments. Sometimes no matter what treatment you use, it is not curable, but often it is. As research continues we are finding more and more way's to treat both. Let's please remember though, just because something has worked for you does not mean it will work for the next person. It is great to share your successes and for that matter your failures, because we can learn from both. I hope everyone can find their own path to success and recovery, whatever that path may be.
I think the primary difference of opinion is whether alcoholism or probably more accurately, addiction, is a "disease" unto itself, or a symptom of an underlying disorder. It is possible that both may be true, depending on the person. For myself, and I only speak for me, I feel my addiction to alcohol and marajuana is a symptom of underlying issues I have not dealt with. Instead of dealing with these issues, depression, anxiety, sexual abuse, shame, guilt, etc., I have chosen to numb myself to them. This has in turn made many of these issues worse. I feel that my addictions are a symptom of my underlying issues, not the cause of them. Until I learn and utilize more positive coping skills to deal with these issues, I will probably not get any better.
There is no doubt that 12-step programs help many people, and if you really look at the steps, they deal with helping with many of the issues I mentioned above. Thus, I feel that "working the steps" can have a positive effect on many of the above issues, however they are a mix of chemical and emotional issues, for me at least. No matter how sober I stay, I may still have major depression issues that can only be dealt with through medication, and possibly therapy. Personally I haven't really been able to remain completely sober long enough to thoughly test this theory, but I believe it to be true.
I've come to the conclusion that my biggest problem with AA and 12-step programs is trust. I don't trust anyone. I don't trust myself. I certainly don't trust a group of, albeit, well meaning strangers. This is my issue. I have started seeing a new theripist recently and I'm going "all in" on this one. I am going to trust her, completely. She has been recommended by several sources indepentant of each other. I've met with her several times before I made this decision, and I feel that in order for any progress to be made it is what I have to do.
So now that I've derailed this thread even more from it's original purpose, let me close with this. I think cancer is a good comparision to addiction. Both will eventually be fatal. Both take many different forms and require many different treatments. Sometimes no matter what treatment you use, it is not curable, but often it is. As research continues we are finding more and more way's to treat both. Let's please remember though, just because something has worked for you does not mean it will work for the next person. It is great to share your successes and for that matter your failures, because we can learn from both. I hope everyone can find their own path to success and recovery, whatever that path may be.
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Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: San Francisco, CA
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Originally Posted by tyler
I've come to the conclusion that my biggest problem with AA and 12-step programs is trust. I don't trust anyone. I don't trust myself. I certainly don't trust a group of, albeit, well meaning strangers. This is my issue. I have started seeing a new theripist recently and I'm going "all in" on this one. I am going to trust her, completely. She has been recommended by several sources indepentant of each other. I've met with her several times before I made this decision, and I feel that in order for any progress to be made it is what I have to do.
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Thanks everyone for all the observations and comments on this thread: once again SR gives me so much to think about.
To be quite honest, I for one am disappointed with stats connected to AA. AA claims to be successful, but I haven't actually seen a study that proves or disproves AA's effectiveness.
My own experience with AA has been good because it is essentially a form of group therapy for me. My meeting last night was an example of that. It seems that nobody was really in the mood to have a meeting. It was a theme meeting and someone mentioned being a codie as well as being an alcoholic. Turns out we had a great meeting and people didn't want to stop sharing. it went from geing a dud meeting to being really good. We went over time and then after we closed up people gathered outside of the building to keep talking.
If you think AA is going to fix everything and perform magic you may be disappointed. I never thought AA was going to fix me, my attitude is that AA might help me fix myself.
It is true that the men outnumber the women but if you go to enough meetings you will meet the women and as far as trust goes: you don't have to share if you don't feel like it.
My sponsor said she didn't share for a year. It took me about 6 months before I opened my mouth at a meeting.
To be quite honest, I for one am disappointed with stats connected to AA. AA claims to be successful, but I haven't actually seen a study that proves or disproves AA's effectiveness.
My own experience with AA has been good because it is essentially a form of group therapy for me. My meeting last night was an example of that. It seems that nobody was really in the mood to have a meeting. It was a theme meeting and someone mentioned being a codie as well as being an alcoholic. Turns out we had a great meeting and people didn't want to stop sharing. it went from geing a dud meeting to being really good. We went over time and then after we closed up people gathered outside of the building to keep talking.
If you think AA is going to fix everything and perform magic you may be disappointed. I never thought AA was going to fix me, my attitude is that AA might help me fix myself.
It is true that the men outnumber the women but if you go to enough meetings you will meet the women and as far as trust goes: you don't have to share if you don't feel like it.
My sponsor said she didn't share for a year. It took me about 6 months before I opened my mouth at a meeting.
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I think Moderation Management is a joke. It might work for alcohol abusers/problem drinkers, but to those people who are truly alcoholics, I would say 99% of them wouldn't make it through the program. I don't know about you guys, but I don't want to wait to kill 2 people drunk driving and spend 4 years in prison to realize I can't drink moderately. This program if anything, is a death trap for most alcoholics.
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I tried moderation.. haha.. I'm a binger at EVERYTHING.. Not just alcohol.. Life in general.. So I can't have 2-3 drinks.. Only time I would stop is when I got hungry and ate some bad food then passed out..It would be nice tho..
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Originally Posted by NeverLookinBack
I think Moderation Management is a joke. It might work for alcohol abusers/problem drinkers, but to those people who are truly alcoholics, I would say 99% of them wouldn't make it through the program. I don't know about you guys, but I don't want to wait to kill 2 people drunk driving and spend 4 years in prison to realize I can't drink moderately. This program if anything, is a death trap for most alcoholics.
I'm in the camp where I think moderation management is good for less severe people unwilling to accept they cannot moderate yet. Also help, educate and set up strategies for damage limitation, like not killing others by drink driving.
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Join Date: May 2009
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Originally Posted by kurtrambis
I have a drink problem, my problem is controlling drink not controlling whether I drink and drive. NO EXCUSE! DON'T DRINK AND DRIVE.
I'm in the camp where I think moderation management is good for less severe people unwilling to accept they cannot moderate yet. Also help, educate and set up strategies for damage limitation, like not killing others by drink driving.
I'm in the camp where I think moderation management is good for less severe people unwilling to accept they cannot moderate yet. Also help, educate and set up strategies for damage limitation, like not killing others by drink driving.
The hardcore drunks like myself we're more paranoid.. I could easily drive if I wanted on a 12 pack of beer and be more alert than a moderate drinker with 4 beers..
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Originally Posted by ImReadyToQuit
I think 95% of people getting DUI's are "moderate drinkers"..
The hardcore drunks like myself we're more paranoid.. I could easily drive if I wanted on a 12 pack of beer and be more alert than a moderate drinker with 4 beers..
The hardcore drunks like myself we're more paranoid.. I could easily drive if I wanted on a 12 pack of beer and be more alert than a moderate drinker with 4 beers..
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Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: La La Land, USA
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Originally Posted by ImReadyToQuit
I think 95% of people getting DUI's are "moderate drinkers"..
The hardcore drunks like myself we're more paranoid.. I could easily drive if I wanted on a 12 pack of beer and be more alert than a moderate drinker with 4 beers..
The hardcore drunks like myself we're more paranoid.. I could easily drive if I wanted on a 12 pack of beer and be more alert than a moderate drinker with 4 beers..
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