What do recovering alcoholics think of "moderation management"?
Member
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: tennessee
Posts: 592
I crossed the line years ago on moderating. I wouldnt want to moderate I drink to get drunk to blackout, checkout and repeat daily. Some one said all or nothing well thats me in everything I do. If you can drink moderately then you are definenitly not an alcoholic like me the only time I would moderate at all is if I ran out then I would try an figure where I get more. A moderation forum wouldnt bother me at all I have no illusions I know if I start back drinking Ill be right back where I was not any worse because you cant drink anymore than I did in a day.
Member
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 18,299
Originally Posted by paulg 
Look. I'm new to this forum. I can only talk about my own experience. I don't quote from any book, and I don't pretend to have all the answers. If somebody can moderate their drinking; good luck to them. I wouldn't want it for myself.
My opinion is like I said in my first post....If I could moderate, I wouldn't be an alcoholic.
But it is just my opinion.
where the light is
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 2,763
Originally Posted by sunrise1
It is hard for me to hear that you got hammered last night but are fine today and will continue with this. That's like walking into a room full of people on a liquid diet and eating a steak in front of them. Just my .02...
In time, people getting drunk will have zero effect on how you feel, quite possibly the opposite. Believe me, a person getting hammered does not make me think of steak...
I'm not sitting here thinking "lucky guy can get hammered and I'm stuck being sober for the rest of my life."***
As far as moderation management? Probably a good thing for people on the fence about their drinking. Either they will be successful with moderation or will further convince themselves that they are alcoholic.
Just my opinion but an alcoholic who does not accept his/her alcoholism will continue to drink.
Laozi Old Man
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Detroit, MI
Posts: 6,665
Everything in Moderation
The debate over alcohol: Is one too many?
By Stanton Peele
Audrey Kishline pled guilty June 29 to two counts of vehicular homicide after she killed a 12-year-old girl and the girl's father while driving drunk. For some, this event sounded the death knell for Moderation Management, a support group Kishline founded in 1994 for those who wish to moderate their drinking. Groups like the National Council on Alcohol and Drug Dependence said Kishline's story was a dire lesson for anyone who claimed any problem drinkers can moderate their drinking.
I am such a person: I wrote the introduction to Kishline's 1994 book, "Moderate Drinking." Kishline had contacted me and several other experts in 1993 because she had taken an alternative route after she had been in standard treatment for alcoholism several times. In the United States, these programs are invariably based on the 12 steps of Alcoholics Anonymous and require absolute abstinence. But they hadn't worked for Kishline. And from 1993 through 1999, she seemed to have moderated her drinking successfully.
In fact, the 12 steps and abstinence didn't work for Kishline in 2000, either. In January, two months before she caused the deaths of two innocent individuals, Kishline had announced on MM's Internet discussion group that she was leaving MM to attend AA. And, according to a report by the Seattle Times based on a statement Kishline gave at her plea hearing, "it wasn't long before she was consuming so much wine at night she would drink herself to sleep." Kishline had been attending AA regularly while drinking nightly.
Of course, AA can no more be blamed for Kishline's drunken episode than can MM. It is difficult to judge either group based on the careers of individuals. Many AA members have killed people while driving drunk — I testified at a federal murder trial of an active AA member who got drunk and crossed a medial strip, killing a woman driving in an oncoming car. Consider that Darryl Strawberry, who had devoted himself to AA, Narcotics Anonymous and abstinence (as well as becoming a born-again Christian), was scheduled to deliver a keynote address for the NCADD when he was arrested soliciting a prostitute, with cocaine in his possession, and subsequently failed a Yankees drug test.
In other words, there is more than enough failure to go around.
Research does not indicate that people who quit drinking altogether succeed better than those who do not. The National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism conducted the largest clinical trial of alcoholism treatment in history, called Project MATCH.
In 1997 MATCH published its results. All of the several treatments tried worked well, according to NIAAA Director Enoch Gordis. But not many of the 1,726 subjects stopped drinking altogether — instead, on average, they reduced their drinking from 25 to six days a month and from 15 drinks to three drinks each time they drank.
In the United States, we hold out the hope that all alcoholics will stop drinking entirely. So far, this has not occurred. But, as with sex education aimed at having all children remain virgins, we are committed to the ideal. Many feel it's important that AA and treatment programs tell people not to drink — if they relapse it is because they failed to do what they were told.
But while this has been the dominant approach to alcoholism, Americans are not doing any better with their drinking. Between 1968 and 1984, the number of Americans reporting alcohol-dependence symptoms doubled, and that number has remained high throughout the '90s. Yet we have a more extensive treatment system than any other country in the world. Shouldn't we expect that, with so much treatment, if our approaches were effective, we would see a downturn in the problem being addressed?
Instead of more moderate drinking, we have seen a sharp upturn in the extremes of excessive drinking and total abstinence in the U.S. Since the early 1990s, Henry Wechsler of the Harvard School of Public Health has investigated collegiate binge drinking. Upwards of 40 percent of college students drink heavily at least occasionally. And, despite a series of programs begun on campuses around the country, the percentage who binge frequently increased through the '90s — along with those who abstained.
Courts and employee assistance programs regularly compel people to enter AA. But very few really stick to and succeed with it. Even those who continue to attend for some time will at some point take a drink, at which point they often abandon all restraint. In AA, a slip is the same as a drunken binge — one does not proudly return to the group and announce he or she had a drink but didn't get drunk! Thus, in AA and treatment programs based on it, people usually drink all-out once they begin to drink.
Moderation approaches strive to break this cycle. MM — which is restricted to those with lesser drinking problems (often termed "problem drinkers" rather than "alcoholics") — aims for women to have no more than nine drinks weekly and, for men, 14. For many, MM's guidelines and techniques are helpful.
People sometimes foresee a stressful situation or troubling occurrence that will endanger their sobriety, and they may take steps to remain problem-free. For these and other reasons, they could for a short time, or semi-permanently, replace a moderation goal with abstinence. MM does not lock people into moderating their drinking forever, and in some cases it can be another path to abstinence.
There are many people willing to decree abstinence for others. But only the individual drinker actually can decide if and when he or she will drink.
MM is clearly not for everybody. Many people — especially those heavily dependent on alcohol — do best with abstinence and/or AA. But some of those who wish to abstain may be uncomfortable with the "powerlessness" or "higher power" concepts central to AA. For these people, there are other abstinence-oriented support groups, such as SMART Recovery.
The question is, who will decide which approach is best for them? There are many people willing to decree abstinence for others. But, for better or worse, only the individual drinker actually can decide if and when he or she will drink.
Some people want to drink, and claim they are trying to moderate while they simply continue their alcoholism. But we already know that most people won't quit their alcoholic drinking no matter what. Project MATCH involved the best alcoholism treatment researchers in the U.S. in developing the most sophisticated treatment protocols ever — yet even in this ideal, colossally expensive program, most alcoholics did not abstain after treatment.
Let us take one last look at the Kishline situation. Since she had given up on moderation and was failing at abstinence, what could have been done? Apparently, Audrey (to whom I had not spoken in five years) had no one nearby to whom she could confess that she was actively drinking. It was simply too embarrassing and scary. But if there had been a way for Audrey to deal with this reality — for example, by enlisting family or friends to make sure she did not drive while she tried to resolve her drinking crisis, two human beings might still be alive.
There is no treatment for people in active alcoholic crisis in the U.S. No one would treat Audrey if she admitted to getting drunk nightly — whether they were instructing her to quit or to reduce her drinking. Yet there are more active alcoholics than ever before. If you cannot abstain, presumably forever, you are on your own. This doesn't prevent many people from drinking alcoholically, and worse, from harming themselves and others while doing so. But at least we can proudly state, "We told them not to drink!"
The debate over alcohol: Is one too many?
By Stanton Peele
Audrey Kishline pled guilty June 29 to two counts of vehicular homicide after she killed a 12-year-old girl and the girl's father while driving drunk. For some, this event sounded the death knell for Moderation Management, a support group Kishline founded in 1994 for those who wish to moderate their drinking. Groups like the National Council on Alcohol and Drug Dependence said Kishline's story was a dire lesson for anyone who claimed any problem drinkers can moderate their drinking.
I am such a person: I wrote the introduction to Kishline's 1994 book, "Moderate Drinking." Kishline had contacted me and several other experts in 1993 because she had taken an alternative route after she had been in standard treatment for alcoholism several times. In the United States, these programs are invariably based on the 12 steps of Alcoholics Anonymous and require absolute abstinence. But they hadn't worked for Kishline. And from 1993 through 1999, she seemed to have moderated her drinking successfully.
In fact, the 12 steps and abstinence didn't work for Kishline in 2000, either. In January, two months before she caused the deaths of two innocent individuals, Kishline had announced on MM's Internet discussion group that she was leaving MM to attend AA. And, according to a report by the Seattle Times based on a statement Kishline gave at her plea hearing, "it wasn't long before she was consuming so much wine at night she would drink herself to sleep." Kishline had been attending AA regularly while drinking nightly.
Of course, AA can no more be blamed for Kishline's drunken episode than can MM. It is difficult to judge either group based on the careers of individuals. Many AA members have killed people while driving drunk — I testified at a federal murder trial of an active AA member who got drunk and crossed a medial strip, killing a woman driving in an oncoming car. Consider that Darryl Strawberry, who had devoted himself to AA, Narcotics Anonymous and abstinence (as well as becoming a born-again Christian), was scheduled to deliver a keynote address for the NCADD when he was arrested soliciting a prostitute, with cocaine in his possession, and subsequently failed a Yankees drug test.
In other words, there is more than enough failure to go around.
Research does not indicate that people who quit drinking altogether succeed better than those who do not. The National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism conducted the largest clinical trial of alcoholism treatment in history, called Project MATCH.
In 1997 MATCH published its results. All of the several treatments tried worked well, according to NIAAA Director Enoch Gordis. But not many of the 1,726 subjects stopped drinking altogether — instead, on average, they reduced their drinking from 25 to six days a month and from 15 drinks to three drinks each time they drank.
In the United States, we hold out the hope that all alcoholics will stop drinking entirely. So far, this has not occurred. But, as with sex education aimed at having all children remain virgins, we are committed to the ideal. Many feel it's important that AA and treatment programs tell people not to drink — if they relapse it is because they failed to do what they were told.
But while this has been the dominant approach to alcoholism, Americans are not doing any better with their drinking. Between 1968 and 1984, the number of Americans reporting alcohol-dependence symptoms doubled, and that number has remained high throughout the '90s. Yet we have a more extensive treatment system than any other country in the world. Shouldn't we expect that, with so much treatment, if our approaches were effective, we would see a downturn in the problem being addressed?
Instead of more moderate drinking, we have seen a sharp upturn in the extremes of excessive drinking and total abstinence in the U.S. Since the early 1990s, Henry Wechsler of the Harvard School of Public Health has investigated collegiate binge drinking. Upwards of 40 percent of college students drink heavily at least occasionally. And, despite a series of programs begun on campuses around the country, the percentage who binge frequently increased through the '90s — along with those who abstained.
Courts and employee assistance programs regularly compel people to enter AA. But very few really stick to and succeed with it. Even those who continue to attend for some time will at some point take a drink, at which point they often abandon all restraint. In AA, a slip is the same as a drunken binge — one does not proudly return to the group and announce he or she had a drink but didn't get drunk! Thus, in AA and treatment programs based on it, people usually drink all-out once they begin to drink.
Moderation approaches strive to break this cycle. MM — which is restricted to those with lesser drinking problems (often termed "problem drinkers" rather than "alcoholics") — aims for women to have no more than nine drinks weekly and, for men, 14. For many, MM's guidelines and techniques are helpful.
People sometimes foresee a stressful situation or troubling occurrence that will endanger their sobriety, and they may take steps to remain problem-free. For these and other reasons, they could for a short time, or semi-permanently, replace a moderation goal with abstinence. MM does not lock people into moderating their drinking forever, and in some cases it can be another path to abstinence.
There are many people willing to decree abstinence for others. But only the individual drinker actually can decide if and when he or she will drink.
MM is clearly not for everybody. Many people — especially those heavily dependent on alcohol — do best with abstinence and/or AA. But some of those who wish to abstain may be uncomfortable with the "powerlessness" or "higher power" concepts central to AA. For these people, there are other abstinence-oriented support groups, such as SMART Recovery.
The question is, who will decide which approach is best for them? There are many people willing to decree abstinence for others. But, for better or worse, only the individual drinker actually can decide if and when he or she will drink.
Some people want to drink, and claim they are trying to moderate while they simply continue their alcoholism. But we already know that most people won't quit their alcoholic drinking no matter what. Project MATCH involved the best alcoholism treatment researchers in the U.S. in developing the most sophisticated treatment protocols ever — yet even in this ideal, colossally expensive program, most alcoholics did not abstain after treatment.
Let us take one last look at the Kishline situation. Since she had given up on moderation and was failing at abstinence, what could have been done? Apparently, Audrey (to whom I had not spoken in five years) had no one nearby to whom she could confess that she was actively drinking. It was simply too embarrassing and scary. But if there had been a way for Audrey to deal with this reality — for example, by enlisting family or friends to make sure she did not drive while she tried to resolve her drinking crisis, two human beings might still be alive.
There is no treatment for people in active alcoholic crisis in the U.S. No one would treat Audrey if she admitted to getting drunk nightly — whether they were instructing her to quit or to reduce her drinking. Yet there are more active alcoholics than ever before. If you cannot abstain, presumably forever, you are on your own. This doesn't prevent many people from drinking alcoholically, and worse, from harming themselves and others while doing so. But at least we can proudly state, "We told them not to drink!"
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 1,103
Gooooood question, NB.
We broke up because he could not stay sober for a month and I determined he was in no way ready for recovery. I think he is still in denial.
I decided I was very codependent-I had to let go, because that was a condition I put on him for breaking my boundary.
My boundary was, I do not want to be with someone who does cocaine. He knew this. he did coke on a drunken bender, then admitted he had a drinking problem, but I think it was only to keep me around.
He became very agitated and frustrated trying to stay sober. On July 4th he used the holiday as an excuse to go out and drink, even though he knew if he did, he would lose me. So I have no choice but to accept his alcoholism, which I think I was in denial about before. But looking back, the signs were there before this point.
He hates AA. He's very rebellious and hates to be told what to do.
I did the typically codie thing of bombarding him with info, esp web links - lol. I thought maybe since he hates AA, there's another program he might like better. I'm in NC with him now but I thought I might send the info along to his mom, who I'm friends with and who is concerned about him.
We broke up because he could not stay sober for a month and I determined he was in no way ready for recovery. I think he is still in denial.
I decided I was very codependent-I had to let go, because that was a condition I put on him for breaking my boundary.
My boundary was, I do not want to be with someone who does cocaine. He knew this. he did coke on a drunken bender, then admitted he had a drinking problem, but I think it was only to keep me around.
He became very agitated and frustrated trying to stay sober. On July 4th he used the holiday as an excuse to go out and drink, even though he knew if he did, he would lose me. So I have no choice but to accept his alcoholism, which I think I was in denial about before. But looking back, the signs were there before this point.
He hates AA. He's very rebellious and hates to be told what to do.
I did the typically codie thing of bombarding him with info, esp web links - lol. I thought maybe since he hates AA, there's another program he might like better. I'm in NC with him now but I thought I might send the info along to his mom, who I'm friends with and who is concerned about him.
Originally Posted by NewBeginning010
If you really want to know about the MM program you can sign up to their forums here and ask around.
MM National On-line Support Group
Has your xabf ever quit drinking for an extended period of time (1 month plus?) or ever tried AA?
Good Luck!
NB
MM National On-line Support Group
Has your xabf ever quit drinking for an extended period of time (1 month plus?) or ever tried AA?
Good Luck!
NB
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 1,103
Frightening article.
I don't know what the solution is. It's tragic.
We F&F are told, let the alcoholic go, detach.
And sometimes we have to-the pain of being with someone who's killing themselves is too great, or the effects on our own lives are too damaging.
I've felt somewhat guilty about leaving my x--you always think well maybe another approach would've worked. I don't know.
Maybe we need to reconsider the treatment models. I don't know.
I don't know what the solution is. It's tragic.
We F&F are told, let the alcoholic go, detach.
And sometimes we have to-the pain of being with someone who's killing themselves is too great, or the effects on our own lives are too damaging.
I've felt somewhat guilty about leaving my x--you always think well maybe another approach would've worked. I don't know.
Maybe we need to reconsider the treatment models. I don't know.
Originally Posted by Boleo
Everything in Moderation
The debate over alcohol: Is one too many?
By Stanton Peele
Audrey Kishline pled guilty June 29 to two counts of vehicular homicide after she killed a 12-year-old girl and the girl's father while driving drunk. For some, this event sounded the death knell for Moderation Management, a support group Kishline founded in 1994 for those who wish to moderate their drinking. Groups like the National Council on Alcohol and Drug Dependence said Kishline's story was a dire lesson for anyone who claimed any problem drinkers can moderate their drinking.
I am such a person: I wrote the introduction to Kishline's 1994 book, "Moderate Drinking." Kishline had contacted me and several other experts in 1993 because she had taken an alternative route after she had been in standard treatment for alcoholism several times. In the United States, these programs are invariably based on the 12 steps of Alcoholics Anonymous and require absolute abstinence. But they hadn't worked for Kishline. And from 1993 through 1999, she seemed to have moderated her drinking successfully.
In fact, the 12 steps and abstinence didn't work for Kishline in 2000, either. In January, two months before she caused the deaths of two innocent individuals, Kishline had announced on MM's Internet discussion group that she was leaving MM to attend AA. And, according to a report by the Seattle Times based on a statement Kishline gave at her plea hearing, "it wasn't long before she was consuming so much wine at night she would drink herself to sleep." Kishline had been attending AA regularly while drinking nightly.
Of course, AA can no more be blamed for Kishline's drunken episode than can MM. It is difficult to judge either group based on the careers of individuals. Many AA members have killed people while driving drunk — I testified at a federal murder trial of an active AA member who got drunk and crossed a medial strip, killing a woman driving in an oncoming car. Consider that Darryl Strawberry, who had devoted himself to AA, Narcotics Anonymous and abstinence (as well as becoming a born-again Christian), was scheduled to deliver a keynote address for the NCADD when he was arrested soliciting a prostitute, with cocaine in his possession, and subsequently failed a Yankees drug test.
In other words, there is more than enough failure to go around.
Research does not indicate that people who quit drinking altogether succeed better than those who do not. The National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism conducted the largest clinical trial of alcoholism treatment in history, called Project MATCH.
In 1997 MATCH published its results. All of the several treatments tried worked well, according to NIAAA Director Enoch Gordis. But not many of the 1,726 subjects stopped drinking altogether — instead, on average, they reduced their drinking from 25 to six days a month and from 15 drinks to three drinks each time they drank.
In the United States, we hold out the hope that all alcoholics will stop drinking entirely. So far, this has not occurred. But, as with sex education aimed at having all children remain virgins, we are committed to the ideal. Many feel it's important that AA and treatment programs tell people not to drink — if they relapse it is because they failed to do what they were told.
But while this has been the dominant approach to alcoholism, Americans are not doing any better with their drinking. Between 1968 and 1984, the number of Americans reporting alcohol-dependence symptoms doubled, and that number has remained high throughout the '90s. Yet we have a more extensive treatment system than any other country in the world. Shouldn't we expect that, with so much treatment, if our approaches were effective, we would see a downturn in the problem being addressed?
Instead of more moderate drinking, we have seen a sharp upturn in the extremes of excessive drinking and total abstinence in the U.S. Since the early 1990s, Henry Wechsler of the Harvard School of Public Health has investigated collegiate binge drinking. Upwards of 40 percent of college students drink heavily at least occasionally. And, despite a series of programs begun on campuses around the country, the percentage who binge frequently increased through the '90s — along with those who abstained.
Courts and employee assistance programs regularly compel people to enter AA. But very few really stick to and succeed with it. Even those who continue to attend for some time will at some point take a drink, at which point they often abandon all restraint. In AA, a slip is the same as a drunken binge — one does not proudly return to the group and announce he or she had a drink but didn't get drunk! Thus, in AA and treatment programs based on it, people usually drink all-out once they begin to drink.
Moderation approaches strive to break this cycle. MM — which is restricted to those with lesser drinking problems (often termed "problem drinkers" rather than "alcoholics") — aims for women to have no more than nine drinks weekly and, for men, 14. For many, MM's guidelines and techniques are helpful.
People sometimes foresee a stressful situation or troubling occurrence that will endanger their sobriety, and they may take steps to remain problem-free. For these and other reasons, they could for a short time, or semi-permanently, replace a moderation goal with abstinence. MM does not lock people into moderating their drinking forever, and in some cases it can be another path to abstinence.
There are many people willing to decree abstinence for others. But only the individual drinker actually can decide if and when he or she will drink.
MM is clearly not for everybody. Many people — especially those heavily dependent on alcohol — do best with abstinence and/or AA. But some of those who wish to abstain may be uncomfortable with the "powerlessness" or "higher power" concepts central to AA. For these people, there are other abstinence-oriented support groups, such as SMART Recovery.
The question is, who will decide which approach is best for them? There are many people willing to decree abstinence for others. But, for better or worse, only the individual drinker actually can decide if and when he or she will drink.
Some people want to drink, and claim they are trying to moderate while they simply continue their alcoholism. But we already know that most people won't quit their alcoholic drinking no matter what. Project MATCH involved the best alcoholism treatment researchers in the U.S. in developing the most sophisticated treatment protocols ever — yet even in this ideal, colossally expensive program, most alcoholics did not abstain after treatment.
Let us take one last look at the Kishline situation. Since she had given up on moderation and was failing at abstinence, what could have been done? Apparently, Audrey (to whom I had not spoken in five years) had no one nearby to whom she could confess that she was actively drinking. It was simply too embarrassing and scary. But if there had been a way for Audrey to deal with this reality — for example, by enlisting family or friends to make sure she did not drive while she tried to resolve her drinking crisis, two human beings might still be alive.
There is no treatment for people in active alcoholic crisis in the U.S. No one would treat Audrey if she admitted to getting drunk nightly — whether they were instructing her to quit or to reduce her drinking. Yet there are more active alcoholics than ever before. If you cannot abstain, presumably forever, you are on your own. This doesn't prevent many people from drinking alcoholically, and worse, from harming themselves and others while doing so. But at least we can proudly state, "We told them not to drink!"
The debate over alcohol: Is one too many?
By Stanton Peele
Audrey Kishline pled guilty June 29 to two counts of vehicular homicide after she killed a 12-year-old girl and the girl's father while driving drunk. For some, this event sounded the death knell for Moderation Management, a support group Kishline founded in 1994 for those who wish to moderate their drinking. Groups like the National Council on Alcohol and Drug Dependence said Kishline's story was a dire lesson for anyone who claimed any problem drinkers can moderate their drinking.
I am such a person: I wrote the introduction to Kishline's 1994 book, "Moderate Drinking." Kishline had contacted me and several other experts in 1993 because she had taken an alternative route after she had been in standard treatment for alcoholism several times. In the United States, these programs are invariably based on the 12 steps of Alcoholics Anonymous and require absolute abstinence. But they hadn't worked for Kishline. And from 1993 through 1999, she seemed to have moderated her drinking successfully.
In fact, the 12 steps and abstinence didn't work for Kishline in 2000, either. In January, two months before she caused the deaths of two innocent individuals, Kishline had announced on MM's Internet discussion group that she was leaving MM to attend AA. And, according to a report by the Seattle Times based on a statement Kishline gave at her plea hearing, "it wasn't long before she was consuming so much wine at night she would drink herself to sleep." Kishline had been attending AA regularly while drinking nightly.
Of course, AA can no more be blamed for Kishline's drunken episode than can MM. It is difficult to judge either group based on the careers of individuals. Many AA members have killed people while driving drunk — I testified at a federal murder trial of an active AA member who got drunk and crossed a medial strip, killing a woman driving in an oncoming car. Consider that Darryl Strawberry, who had devoted himself to AA, Narcotics Anonymous and abstinence (as well as becoming a born-again Christian), was scheduled to deliver a keynote address for the NCADD when he was arrested soliciting a prostitute, with cocaine in his possession, and subsequently failed a Yankees drug test.
In other words, there is more than enough failure to go around.
Research does not indicate that people who quit drinking altogether succeed better than those who do not. The National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism conducted the largest clinical trial of alcoholism treatment in history, called Project MATCH.
In 1997 MATCH published its results. All of the several treatments tried worked well, according to NIAAA Director Enoch Gordis. But not many of the 1,726 subjects stopped drinking altogether — instead, on average, they reduced their drinking from 25 to six days a month and from 15 drinks to three drinks each time they drank.
In the United States, we hold out the hope that all alcoholics will stop drinking entirely. So far, this has not occurred. But, as with sex education aimed at having all children remain virgins, we are committed to the ideal. Many feel it's important that AA and treatment programs tell people not to drink — if they relapse it is because they failed to do what they were told.
But while this has been the dominant approach to alcoholism, Americans are not doing any better with their drinking. Between 1968 and 1984, the number of Americans reporting alcohol-dependence symptoms doubled, and that number has remained high throughout the '90s. Yet we have a more extensive treatment system than any other country in the world. Shouldn't we expect that, with so much treatment, if our approaches were effective, we would see a downturn in the problem being addressed?
Instead of more moderate drinking, we have seen a sharp upturn in the extremes of excessive drinking and total abstinence in the U.S. Since the early 1990s, Henry Wechsler of the Harvard School of Public Health has investigated collegiate binge drinking. Upwards of 40 percent of college students drink heavily at least occasionally. And, despite a series of programs begun on campuses around the country, the percentage who binge frequently increased through the '90s — along with those who abstained.
Courts and employee assistance programs regularly compel people to enter AA. But very few really stick to and succeed with it. Even those who continue to attend for some time will at some point take a drink, at which point they often abandon all restraint. In AA, a slip is the same as a drunken binge — one does not proudly return to the group and announce he or she had a drink but didn't get drunk! Thus, in AA and treatment programs based on it, people usually drink all-out once they begin to drink.
Moderation approaches strive to break this cycle. MM — which is restricted to those with lesser drinking problems (often termed "problem drinkers" rather than "alcoholics") — aims for women to have no more than nine drinks weekly and, for men, 14. For many, MM's guidelines and techniques are helpful.
People sometimes foresee a stressful situation or troubling occurrence that will endanger their sobriety, and they may take steps to remain problem-free. For these and other reasons, they could for a short time, or semi-permanently, replace a moderation goal with abstinence. MM does not lock people into moderating their drinking forever, and in some cases it can be another path to abstinence.
There are many people willing to decree abstinence for others. But only the individual drinker actually can decide if and when he or she will drink.
MM is clearly not for everybody. Many people — especially those heavily dependent on alcohol — do best with abstinence and/or AA. But some of those who wish to abstain may be uncomfortable with the "powerlessness" or "higher power" concepts central to AA. For these people, there are other abstinence-oriented support groups, such as SMART Recovery.
The question is, who will decide which approach is best for them? There are many people willing to decree abstinence for others. But, for better or worse, only the individual drinker actually can decide if and when he or she will drink.
Some people want to drink, and claim they are trying to moderate while they simply continue their alcoholism. But we already know that most people won't quit their alcoholic drinking no matter what. Project MATCH involved the best alcoholism treatment researchers in the U.S. in developing the most sophisticated treatment protocols ever — yet even in this ideal, colossally expensive program, most alcoholics did not abstain after treatment.
Let us take one last look at the Kishline situation. Since she had given up on moderation and was failing at abstinence, what could have been done? Apparently, Audrey (to whom I had not spoken in five years) had no one nearby to whom she could confess that she was actively drinking. It was simply too embarrassing and scary. But if there had been a way for Audrey to deal with this reality — for example, by enlisting family or friends to make sure she did not drive while she tried to resolve her drinking crisis, two human beings might still be alive.
There is no treatment for people in active alcoholic crisis in the U.S. No one would treat Audrey if she admitted to getting drunk nightly — whether they were instructing her to quit or to reduce her drinking. Yet there are more active alcoholics than ever before. If you cannot abstain, presumably forever, you are on your own. This doesn't prevent many people from drinking alcoholically, and worse, from harming themselves and others while doing so. But at least we can proudly state, "We told them not to drink!"
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 1,103
Well, as someone who was in love with an alcoholic in denial, what should I have done, personally? Or in general, what do people who love the alcoholic do? No one seems to be able to get an alcoholic into treatment-that person has to decide for themselves. I would much rather not leave my xabf but I feel I have no choice, because the whole "make him realize the pain of using is worse than the pain of getting clean" makes sense to me.
Originally Posted by paulg
I don't believe in encouraging people to hit rock bottom so that they can get the message because a lot of them die this way.
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Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 1,103
"Learn" to control their drinking...how?
I thought perhaps putting the condition on my ex of: stay sober for 30 days or I'll leave-would make him seek help. I also thought, 30 days sober would give him a taste of how much healthier and happy he could be.
It didn't work.
3 weeks later he dumped me for good to go to the bar.
Ideas of what i could've done instead???
I thought perhaps putting the condition on my ex of: stay sober for 30 days or I'll leave-would make him seek help. I also thought, 30 days sober would give him a taste of how much healthier and happy he could be.
It didn't work.
3 weeks later he dumped me for good to go to the bar.
Ideas of what i could've done instead???
Originally Posted by paulg
If people can learn to control their drinking they might get a taste for full-blown sobriety or they might even manage to actually control the worst effects. It is far better than nothing.
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Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 1,103
Not sure how this is done.
I know over the course of 2 yrs of an off and on rel'ship, I used to express concern to my ex about his drinking. He would taper off for a little while but then always always go back to binging from time to time. Meanwhile his tolerance went through the roof. I'm sure one night he must've put away about 5 heavy cocktails and a 30 pack of beer.
I don't think he ever went into the bar thinking "let me get so trashed i black out tonight and do something stupid." No-it was NEVER intentional. Once he got started, he'd get to the point of no return quite often.
I know over the course of 2 yrs of an off and on rel'ship, I used to express concern to my ex about his drinking. He would taper off for a little while but then always always go back to binging from time to time. Meanwhile his tolerance went through the roof. I'm sure one night he must've put away about 5 heavy cocktails and a 30 pack of beer.
I don't think he ever went into the bar thinking "let me get so trashed i black out tonight and do something stupid." No-it was NEVER intentional. Once he got started, he'd get to the point of no return quite often.
Originally Posted by paulg
I appreciate what others are saying, but I just think that something is better than nothing. If people aren't ready to quit then at least 'trying' to moderate may prevent some damage to their bodies. Maybe they will get a full sober day here and there and see. 'hey this isn't too bad'. I think not that telling people to at least try and moderate their drinking is unwise. All or nothing can kill. With respect.
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Sounds to me like the program didn't fail here.
Sounds like she failed to work her program.
As they say in AA, "it works if you work it."
Maybe they should stick an "ONLY" in there.
Sounds like she failed to work her program.
As they say in AA, "it works if you work it."
Maybe they should stick an "ONLY" in there.
Originally Posted by spittake
Not only that, she had returned to AA! For several months! So if we are going to make judgments about which program failed her at the time of the accident, we are getting into some offensive territory for members of this board. Not to mention that we aren't supposed to be attacking other people's programs of recovery...
Personally, I was able to moderate very, very early on, when my drinking/drug problems couldn't really even be characterized as dependencies. The last few times I attempted to moderate, I was totally incapable of doing so. If anything, it felt like I was doing more binging during those periods than others, though that could simply have been the feeling of failing miserably.
I must note that no such moderation was attempted with the aid of a structured program or group accountability measures, so my experience should not be interpreted as a direct reflection on Moderation Management.
Personally, I was able to moderate very, very early on, when my drinking/drug problems couldn't really even be characterized as dependencies. The last few times I attempted to moderate, I was totally incapable of doing so. If anything, it felt like I was doing more binging during those periods than others, though that could simply have been the feeling of failing miserably.
I must note that no such moderation was attempted with the aid of a structured program or group accountability measures, so my experience should not be interpreted as a direct reflection on Moderation Management.
Forward we go...side by side-Rest In Peace
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Serene In Dixie
Posts: 36,740
Hmm....
Would I choose to be involved with a man who uses cocaine
drinks excessively....lies...
and disrespects my boundaries/ feelings?
Not me...and I am glad you are getting help for yourself.
Blessings as you move forward
Would I choose to be involved with a man who uses cocaine
drinks excessively....lies...
and disrespects my boundaries/ feelings?
Not me...and I am glad you are getting help for yourself.
Blessings as you move forward
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Join Date: May 2007
Location: Sweden
Posts: 1,649
Well, this is an intriguing topic and I had never heard of MM before.
Reading about this woman's journey through starting the organization, writing the book, appearing as a guest on national television, going back to secret drinking for 5 years, lying about it to the organization SHE started....then, gah, reading about that horrible accident scene where she made a complete U-turn on that busy highway and killed two people....sure gave me a heck of a lot to think about.
I guess the part of the story that completely blew me away is that the woman whose husband and daughter she killed forgave her!
My two cents: I think there is no gray zone. The dividing line between normal drinkers and dependent drinkers is very clear. It is not fudgy. Not a single one of the normal drinkers I know would feel the need to start an organization dedicated to controlling their drinking. Because, there would be no need for it. They don't have to consciously control their drinking. They just don't want to drink anymore after they have had a moderate amount to drink. It's not rocket science.
Reading about this woman's journey through starting the organization, writing the book, appearing as a guest on national television, going back to secret drinking for 5 years, lying about it to the organization SHE started....then, gah, reading about that horrible accident scene where she made a complete U-turn on that busy highway and killed two people....sure gave me a heck of a lot to think about.
I guess the part of the story that completely blew me away is that the woman whose husband and daughter she killed forgave her!
My two cents: I think there is no gray zone. The dividing line between normal drinkers and dependent drinkers is very clear. It is not fudgy. Not a single one of the normal drinkers I know would feel the need to start an organization dedicated to controlling their drinking. Because, there would be no need for it. They don't have to consciously control their drinking. They just don't want to drink anymore after they have had a moderate amount to drink. It's not rocket science.
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Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: My house.
Posts: 4,890
Originally Posted by sandrawg
I've felt somewhat guilty about leaving my x--you always think well maybe another approach would've worked. I don't know.
I don't know what it's like to be in your shoes, but I do know that from my personal battles with alcoholism that no one other than myself could get me to quit. It all came down to me and what I was willing to do...and what I'm still willing to do. An individual has to take responsibility and save him/herself. Until the addict "gets it"...forget it. There isn't anything anyone can do. One can only hope that he/she will make the effort for change.
Please take care of yourself...you are worth it.
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Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Australia
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I agree with Bam, Sandrawg.
No approach will work if the alkie/addict involved doesn't want to change.
You did what was healthy for you - and thats a good thing.
It's a damn hard lesson to learn tho.
D
No approach will work if the alkie/addict involved doesn't want to change.
You did what was healthy for you - and thats a good thing.
It's a damn hard lesson to learn tho.
D
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"Moderation" or "controlled drinking" by means of:
- switching from wine to beer, or beer to light beer, or whatever combination you might think makes sense...
- avoiding drinking on an empty stomach...
- trying to hold oneself to a prescribed limit of no more than 5 drinks in one night...
- alternating alcoholic drinks with water or tea...
- limiting the amount of cash I'd carry out when I went out drinking (I just ended up using credit cards) ...
did not work for me. And, that is why I finally looked to stop drinking altogether. I also think it's important for someone new to SR who thinks they might have a drinking problem to figure this out for themselves - not have other people tell them and/or censor discussion of this option.
Also, I learnt something once I quit drinking and shared the news of my decision with other people. There are lots of successful moderate drinkers out there who once had drinking problems - they just don't advertise it!
One friend was surprised and very curious about my decision - and I wondered what was going on with all the questions until he told me something I had no idea beforehand. "Frank" as it turns out - had a drinking problem twenty years ago and turned to AA like I first did. He figured out how to get a grip on his drinking, left AA, and rarely drinks ... he tells me four times a year and only moderately during those occasions which I have witnessed. Hasn't had a problem since.
There is also my best friend who never told me the reason why he always limited himself to two drinks when we went out- I had no clue until he explained it to me that it was a hard and fast rule for him. The thought of whether the 2-drink rule might work for me also did cross my mind - however, I ruled it out. Even if it did, I'm not interested. The health and lifestyle benefits are too great and so is the risk if it fails for me. That being said, had my friend and I discussed my concerns about my drinking earlier, I would have definitely give his 2 drink "rule" a try.
People like that are all around us but we just don't know about their stories. Some people might argue these fellows were never an alcoholic to begin with or that they're in deep denial (and a problem just waiting to happen). I disagree.
A few people have mentioned the Audrey Kishline - the founder of Moderation Management (MM) - and her infamous drunk driving accident which killed a father and daughter - as an example of how moderation is a failure. Clearly, it is not an option that matches her condition IMO. However, I noted however that eight months prior to her accident - she left MM and re-joined AA ... then relapsed and ended up killing two people. It would be wholly unfair to indicate that somehow AA failed her - and continued to do so as she relapsed soon after being released and was jailed for another 42 days for violating parole...
To reiterate, moderation is not a solution for me although I acknowledge had I known then what I know now - it might have been. I also think it is not the solution for "hard core alcoholics" (however you define it) and only helps fuel their state of denial. However, if we can accept there are "borderline alcoholics" and/or "problem drinkers" out there - moderation is certainly an option they might wish to explore before determining whether to abstain completely.
- switching from wine to beer, or beer to light beer, or whatever combination you might think makes sense...
- avoiding drinking on an empty stomach...
- trying to hold oneself to a prescribed limit of no more than 5 drinks in one night...
- alternating alcoholic drinks with water or tea...
- limiting the amount of cash I'd carry out when I went out drinking (I just ended up using credit cards) ...
did not work for me. And, that is why I finally looked to stop drinking altogether. I also think it's important for someone new to SR who thinks they might have a drinking problem to figure this out for themselves - not have other people tell them and/or censor discussion of this option.
Also, I learnt something once I quit drinking and shared the news of my decision with other people. There are lots of successful moderate drinkers out there who once had drinking problems - they just don't advertise it!
One friend was surprised and very curious about my decision - and I wondered what was going on with all the questions until he told me something I had no idea beforehand. "Frank" as it turns out - had a drinking problem twenty years ago and turned to AA like I first did. He figured out how to get a grip on his drinking, left AA, and rarely drinks ... he tells me four times a year and only moderately during those occasions which I have witnessed. Hasn't had a problem since.
There is also my best friend who never told me the reason why he always limited himself to two drinks when we went out- I had no clue until he explained it to me that it was a hard and fast rule for him. The thought of whether the 2-drink rule might work for me also did cross my mind - however, I ruled it out. Even if it did, I'm not interested. The health and lifestyle benefits are too great and so is the risk if it fails for me. That being said, had my friend and I discussed my concerns about my drinking earlier, I would have definitely give his 2 drink "rule" a try.
People like that are all around us but we just don't know about their stories. Some people might argue these fellows were never an alcoholic to begin with or that they're in deep denial (and a problem just waiting to happen). I disagree.
A few people have mentioned the Audrey Kishline - the founder of Moderation Management (MM) - and her infamous drunk driving accident which killed a father and daughter - as an example of how moderation is a failure. Clearly, it is not an option that matches her condition IMO. However, I noted however that eight months prior to her accident - she left MM and re-joined AA ... then relapsed and ended up killing two people. It would be wholly unfair to indicate that somehow AA failed her - and continued to do so as she relapsed soon after being released and was jailed for another 42 days for violating parole...
To reiterate, moderation is not a solution for me although I acknowledge had I known then what I know now - it might have been. I also think it is not the solution for "hard core alcoholics" (however you define it) and only helps fuel their state of denial. However, if we can accept there are "borderline alcoholics" and/or "problem drinkers" out there - moderation is certainly an option they might wish to explore before determining whether to abstain completely.
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Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 2,279
Originally Posted by sandrawg
Isn't there another thread up here, about "problem drinkers" vs. "alcoholics"? Maybe we should move our discussion to that thread - lol
Do a search for moderation & you will see a lot of results. Actually I will do a search for you & post the link here... maybe someone will bump an old thread so yours isn't the focus anymore ;-)
It is definitely a hot topic
Search results for "moderation" 169 threads with moderation in it: http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...archid=1788445
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Join Date: Sep 2005
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Posts: 1,019
When I first heard about MM, I was still drinking and I didn't want to abstain. MM sounded like a great idea. I tried the MM thing, but I wasn't honest with myself. First of all, I was incapable of abstaining for 30 days before beginning MM. I justified this in my mind..... Second, I was incapable of maintaining my goals each week. I tried, and I was very unhappy. When I "controlled" my drinking, I didn't enjoy it. I realized the drink was a "medicine" for me....I was trying to "control" an animal that was bigger than me.
Trying to do the MM program, and failing, helped me realize the truth: I'm was full blown alcoholic in beligerent denial. In a moment of clarity, I realized I was holding on the the hope MM could work for me so I could continue to drink. I "needed" to continue to drink because I was an alcoholic.
Reading this topic brings me back, and I am very grateful that I'm sober today. I'd encourage anybody with a drinking problem to try MM / "controlled drinking" before abstaining. MM helped me realize complete and utter defeat by alcohol. It is by doing these sort of experiements that many of us realize the true nature of our malady.
chip
Trying to do the MM program, and failing, helped me realize the truth: I'm was full blown alcoholic in beligerent denial. In a moment of clarity, I realized I was holding on the the hope MM could work for me so I could continue to drink. I "needed" to continue to drink because I was an alcoholic.
Reading this topic brings me back, and I am very grateful that I'm sober today. I'd encourage anybody with a drinking problem to try MM / "controlled drinking" before abstaining. MM helped me realize complete and utter defeat by alcohol. It is by doing these sort of experiements that many of us realize the true nature of our malady.
chip
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