Testing the assumption of powerless:a personal experiment
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Testing the assumption of powerless:a personal experiment
Ok i know i'm going to get attacked for this,i don't mean any disrespect to anyone here.Nor do i encourage others in this,this is strictly a test of my will and ability.i went through a lot of pain and loss due to my abuse of alcohol,this i know for a fact.I was basically living a life of no direction or inspiration and a lot of self medication,i was going nowhere and miserable.i believe a change had taken place in me in a very short time,this i can't explain.
After a period of sobriety and reflection i decided on a couple of occassions to drink and to limit the amount and stop.this i did 3 seperate times,without the desire to keep going.Why you may ask do i want to play with fire after all the damage it's done to me?You may also chastise me for being a fool and soon it will catch up with me(music,i can hear your rebuke now,lol).And you very well may be right maybe i am fooling myself,dealing with a substance stronger than me.But i must say i feel different,i don't want to get drunk,have no desire for a drink right now and i seem to have a different outlook on it now.Before i just surrendered to it's lure,let it take me out to sea as it were.i did not exercise restraint one bit,this is the reason for it's destructive
effect on my life.i am certainly not recommending this to anyone else,please don't,this is mine and mine alone.i'll let you know how things turn out.peace
After a period of sobriety and reflection i decided on a couple of occassions to drink and to limit the amount and stop.this i did 3 seperate times,without the desire to keep going.Why you may ask do i want to play with fire after all the damage it's done to me?You may also chastise me for being a fool and soon it will catch up with me(music,i can hear your rebuke now,lol).And you very well may be right maybe i am fooling myself,dealing with a substance stronger than me.But i must say i feel different,i don't want to get drunk,have no desire for a drink right now and i seem to have a different outlook on it now.Before i just surrendered to it's lure,let it take me out to sea as it were.i did not exercise restraint one bit,this is the reason for it's destructive
effect on my life.i am certainly not recommending this to anyone else,please don't,this is mine and mine alone.i'll let you know how things turn out.peace
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Actually after thinking about it,i realize that it has no place in this forum and i appologize.this is something personal and it does not serve the greater good of what people are trying to accomplish here.if a monitor wishes to remove this that would probably be
a good idea.Again i appoligize
a good idea.Again i appoligize
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Common stereotyped addictive defenses include but are by no means limited to the following:
I'm not hurting anybody but myself!
Frequently phrased as "Leave me alone! I'm not hurting anybody but myself!" this defense invokes a legalistic right to self-harm at the same time as it denies the interpersonal and social realities of the addict's harmful behaviors. The addict, unable or unwilling to recognize how his behavior does in fact impact and thus harm other people, indignantly and self-righteously proclaims "It's MY life and I can do anything I please with it!" Curiously -and revealingly- the addict seldom finds anything incongruous in the notion that he might knowingly and willingly be harming himself, regardless of whether he is harming anyone else.
Trust me - I know what I am doing!
The addict, blinded to reality by his own denial, attempts to reassure those who have begun to wonder about his judgment, perhaps even about his sanity, that he is in control and that all will be well. He informs them that he is perfectly aware there is or may shortly be a problem, that he does not intend to let it get out of hand, and that he is or will be taking steps to control it.
I can stop any time I want to!
Unaware that his addiction and not he himself is calling the shots, the addict genuinely believes that he is choosing to behave the way he does and therefore he can stop doing so any time he makes up his mind. Unfortunately for him and for those who must deal with him, he seldom makes up his mind to stop(even though he most certainly could if he wanted to, &etc. &etc. &etc.)
I'm not nearly as bad as OTHER people!
An almost universal addictive rationalization. The addict compares himself to people who are in his opinion in far worse shape than he believes himself to be and concludes from this that there is no reason to be concerned about his own addictive behavior. Since there is always someone worse off than himself the addict feels entitled in continuing his addiction.
Nobody is going to tell ME what to do!
The problems caused by addiction are avoided or obscured by a heroic pose worthy of Patrick Henry("Give me liberty or give me death!"). By focusing on his supposed freedom to do as he wishes -actually the freedom of his addiction to do as it wishes- the addict sidesteps the more difficult question of the rationality and sanity of his behavior. Defiance and oppositional behavior are common defenses of addicts against looking at themselves.
I'll handle it myself!
Another nearly universal defense. The addict finally acknowledges and even believes that he has a significant problem but is adamant that he can and will deal with it by himself rather than seeking any kind of professional or support group help. Because he does not yet understand the nature of addiction he supposes that recovery is merely a matter of will power, hence that it is superfluous or even a disgrace to ask for help from others for what he ought to be able to do by himself.
I'm not hurting anybody but myself!
Frequently phrased as "Leave me alone! I'm not hurting anybody but myself!" this defense invokes a legalistic right to self-harm at the same time as it denies the interpersonal and social realities of the addict's harmful behaviors. The addict, unable or unwilling to recognize how his behavior does in fact impact and thus harm other people, indignantly and self-righteously proclaims "It's MY life and I can do anything I please with it!" Curiously -and revealingly- the addict seldom finds anything incongruous in the notion that he might knowingly and willingly be harming himself, regardless of whether he is harming anyone else.
Trust me - I know what I am doing!
The addict, blinded to reality by his own denial, attempts to reassure those who have begun to wonder about his judgment, perhaps even about his sanity, that he is in control and that all will be well. He informs them that he is perfectly aware there is or may shortly be a problem, that he does not intend to let it get out of hand, and that he is or will be taking steps to control it.
I can stop any time I want to!
Unaware that his addiction and not he himself is calling the shots, the addict genuinely believes that he is choosing to behave the way he does and therefore he can stop doing so any time he makes up his mind. Unfortunately for him and for those who must deal with him, he seldom makes up his mind to stop(even though he most certainly could if he wanted to, &etc. &etc. &etc.)
I'm not nearly as bad as OTHER people!
An almost universal addictive rationalization. The addict compares himself to people who are in his opinion in far worse shape than he believes himself to be and concludes from this that there is no reason to be concerned about his own addictive behavior. Since there is always someone worse off than himself the addict feels entitled in continuing his addiction.
Nobody is going to tell ME what to do!
The problems caused by addiction are avoided or obscured by a heroic pose worthy of Patrick Henry("Give me liberty or give me death!"). By focusing on his supposed freedom to do as he wishes -actually the freedom of his addiction to do as it wishes- the addict sidesteps the more difficult question of the rationality and sanity of his behavior. Defiance and oppositional behavior are common defenses of addicts against looking at themselves.
I'll handle it myself!
Another nearly universal defense. The addict finally acknowledges and even believes that he has a significant problem but is adamant that he can and will deal with it by himself rather than seeking any kind of professional or support group help. Because he does not yet understand the nature of addiction he supposes that recovery is merely a matter of will power, hence that it is superfluous or even a disgrace to ask for help from others for what he ought to be able to do by himself.
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Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Arizona
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don't think there's a need to remove the post...
... it won't make me "try the experiment" again.
I know that I am powerless over alcohol. I have tried again and again and again to control my drinking. Or set rules for my drinking. In fact, when I share that in AA, all the heads are bobbing up and down indicating "been there, done that."
Maybe I am not a true alcoholic, but I choose to believe so. There is a quote from Black Wally from Phoenix which says "I would rather live my life sober believing I'm an alcholic....rather than living my life drunk, or even a little drunk believing I'm not."
Just my opinion. My favorite saying is that beer kicks my a$$.
If you are a true alcoholic, you will eventually be drinking uncontrollably again. You can't change a pickle back into a cucumber (thanks Biker Bill).
God Bless you either way!
Ken
I know that I am powerless over alcohol. I have tried again and again and again to control my drinking. Or set rules for my drinking. In fact, when I share that in AA, all the heads are bobbing up and down indicating "been there, done that."
Maybe I am not a true alcoholic, but I choose to believe so. There is a quote from Black Wally from Phoenix which says "I would rather live my life sober believing I'm an alcholic....rather than living my life drunk, or even a little drunk believing I'm not."
Just my opinion. My favorite saying is that beer kicks my a$$.
If you are a true alcoholic, you will eventually be drinking uncontrollably again. You can't change a pickle back into a cucumber (thanks Biker Bill).
God Bless you either way!
Ken
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Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: A van...down by the river!
Posts: 108
KindaBlue,
I don't think you should be attacked for saying what you did. This is a free country. Everyone has to do what's right for THEM. And if you truly feel that you can drink in moderation without going back to overdrinking, then I say more power to ya. I mean, perhaps you're not a true alcoholic....
However, think about it seriously and deeply before you decide. Because, if you truly ARE an alcoholic, as most of us are, it WILL eventually come back to you at some point, you know? And it will probably cause you more damage in the long run. The sad thing about life, is that we can sometimes prevent certain things from happening in the future by the decisions we make, but we can't ever take back the past - so make sure you're confident of that fact before you let yourself decide and take action. Has your life been so unhappy without alcohol? If so, why? What makes it so neccessary for you to return to drinking? Is it mainly peer pressure? Thinking about these types of questions might be of some help.
For myself, I get literally terrified when I think about drinking again. That's how I know that I can never go back without causing myself and others, major damage and distress. Wishing you the best.
PG
I don't think you should be attacked for saying what you did. This is a free country. Everyone has to do what's right for THEM. And if you truly feel that you can drink in moderation without going back to overdrinking, then I say more power to ya. I mean, perhaps you're not a true alcoholic....
However, think about it seriously and deeply before you decide. Because, if you truly ARE an alcoholic, as most of us are, it WILL eventually come back to you at some point, you know? And it will probably cause you more damage in the long run. The sad thing about life, is that we can sometimes prevent certain things from happening in the future by the decisions we make, but we can't ever take back the past - so make sure you're confident of that fact before you let yourself decide and take action. Has your life been so unhappy without alcohol? If so, why? What makes it so neccessary for you to return to drinking? Is it mainly peer pressure? Thinking about these types of questions might be of some help.
For myself, I get literally terrified when I think about drinking again. That's how I know that I can never go back without causing myself and others, major damage and distress. Wishing you the best.
PG
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Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Charleston S.C.
Posts: 1,461
Hi KindaBlue, We must all decide for ourselves the course we take. What ever you decide I am here to back you and support you. I feel that when we post here we post our feelings at that time. Our thoughts may change or be different but, they are ours. Please don't feel you have to post what others want to hear. There should be no fear of posting honest and meaningful thoughts. I feel that truth is a key part of recovery. In the past I would have some of the same feelings you speak of. Instead of speaking of the I would say what
I thought others wanted to hear. A few times when I would talk about them someone at a meeting would jump on me and I would be embarrased. I would stuff those feelings, and stuff those feelings until not being able to talk at a meeting and release I would drink for relief. This is my own feeling but, if someone can't say something to help another alcoholic, don't say something that will hurt one. What ever form of recovery one might choose I try to be an attraction to recovery.Please keep posting without fear, cause we are here. Few of us, have not tried many methods of stopping and controling before finding one that works. Don W
I thought others wanted to hear. A few times when I would talk about them someone at a meeting would jump on me and I would be embarrased. I would stuff those feelings, and stuff those feelings until not being able to talk at a meeting and release I would drink for relief. This is my own feeling but, if someone can't say something to help another alcoholic, don't say something that will hurt one. What ever form of recovery one might choose I try to be an attraction to recovery.Please keep posting without fear, cause we are here. Few of us, have not tried many methods of stopping and controling before finding one that works. Don W
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Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: California
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Big Book of Alcoholics Anonymous Chapter 3
MORE ABOUT ALCOHOLISM
MOST OF US have been unwilling to admit we were real alcoholics. No person likes to think he is bodily and mentally different from his fellows. Therefore, it is not surprising that our drinking careers have been characterized by countless vain attempts to prove we could drink like other people. The idea that somehow, someday he will control and enjoy his drinking is the great obsession of every abnormal drinker. The persistence of this illusion is astonishing. Many pursue it into the gates of insanity or death.
___We learned that we had to fully concede to our innermost selves that we were alcoholics. This is the first step in recovery. The delusion that we are like other people, or presently may be, has to be smashed.
___We alcoholics are men and women who have lost the ability to control our drinking. We know that no real alcoholic ever recovers control. All of us felt at times that we were regaining control, but such intervals -- usually brief -- were inevitably followed by still less control, which led in time to pitiful and incomprehensible demoralization. We are convinced to a man that alcoholics of our type are in the grip of a progressive illness. Over any considerable period we get worse, never better.
___We are like men who have lost their legs; they never grow new ones. Neither does there appear to be any kind of treatment which will make alcoholics of
[ Search/Read Big Book ]
Big Book of Alcoholics Anonymous Chapter 3
MORE ABOUT ALCOHOLISM
MOST OF US have been unwilling to admit we were real alcoholics. No person likes to think he is bodily and mentally different from his fellows. Therefore, it is not surprising that our drinking careers have been characterized by countless vain attempts to prove we could drink like other people. The idea that somehow, someday he will control and enjoy his drinking is the great obsession of every abnormal drinker. The persistence of this illusion is astonishing. Many pursue it into the gates of insanity or death.
___We learned that we had to fully concede to our innermost selves that we were alcoholics. This is the first step in recovery. The delusion that we are like other people, or presently may be, has to be smashed.
___We alcoholics are men and women who have lost the ability to control our drinking. We know that no real alcoholic ever recovers control. All of us felt at times that we were regaining control, but such intervals -- usually brief -- were inevitably followed by still less control, which led in time to pitiful and incomprehensible demoralization. We are convinced to a man that alcoholics of our type are in the grip of a progressive illness. Over any considerable period we get worse, never better.
___We are like men who have lost their legs; they never grow new ones. Neither does there appear to be any kind of treatment which will make alcoholics of
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Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: California
Posts: 233
our kind like other men. We have tried every imaginable remedy In some instances there has been brief recovery, followed always by a still worse relapse. Physicians who are familiar with alcoholism agree there is no such thing as making a normal drinker out of an alcoholic. Science may one day accomplish this, but it hasn't done so yet.
___Despite all we can say, many who are real alcoholics are not going to believe they are in that class. By every form of self-deception and experimentation, they will try to prove themselves exceptions to the rule, therefore nonalcoholic. If anyone who is snowing inability to control his drinking can do the right-about-face and drink like a gentlemen, our hats are off to him. Heavens knows we have tried hard enough and long enough to drink like other people!
___Here are some of the methods we have tried: Drinking beer only, limiting the number of drinks, never drinking alone, never drinking in the morning, drinking only at home, never having it in the house, never drinking during business hours, drinking only at parties, switching from scotch to brandy, drinking only natural wines, agreeing to resign if ever drunk on the job, taking a trip, not taking a trip, swearing off forever ( with and without solemn oath), taking more physical exercise, reading inspirational books, going to health farms and sanitariums, accepting voluntary commitment to asylums -- we could increase the list ad infinitum.
___We do not like to pronounce any individual as alcoholic, but you can quickly diagnose yourself. Step over to the nearest barroom and try some controlled drinking. Try to drink and stop abruptly. Try it more than once. It will not take long for you to decide, if you are honest with yourself about it. It may be worth a bad case of jitters if you get a full knowledge of your condition.
___Despite all we can say, many who are real alcoholics are not going to believe they are in that class. By every form of self-deception and experimentation, they will try to prove themselves exceptions to the rule, therefore nonalcoholic. If anyone who is snowing inability to control his drinking can do the right-about-face and drink like a gentlemen, our hats are off to him. Heavens knows we have tried hard enough and long enough to drink like other people!
___Here are some of the methods we have tried: Drinking beer only, limiting the number of drinks, never drinking alone, never drinking in the morning, drinking only at home, never having it in the house, never drinking during business hours, drinking only at parties, switching from scotch to brandy, drinking only natural wines, agreeing to resign if ever drunk on the job, taking a trip, not taking a trip, swearing off forever ( with and without solemn oath), taking more physical exercise, reading inspirational books, going to health farms and sanitariums, accepting voluntary commitment to asylums -- we could increase the list ad infinitum.
___We do not like to pronounce any individual as alcoholic, but you can quickly diagnose yourself. Step over to the nearest barroom and try some controlled drinking. Try to drink and stop abruptly. Try it more than once. It will not take long for you to decide, if you are honest with yourself about it. It may be worth a bad case of jitters if you get a full knowledge of your condition.
learning
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Where I need to be
Posts: 310
Kblue,
Here is some perspective from someone who does not believe that anyone is powerless over an inert substance like alcohol and does not believe that a chemical dependency to it is a disease. Central to achieving abstinence (sobriety) is a commitment to it. One must fully examine their use of alcohol and be fully ready accept and deal with ANY of the consequences, good or bad, that come from continued use. Statistically speaking, people who have become chemically dependant to a substance have greater success in eliminating the negative consequences of the substance by eliminating the substance. That is common sense. However, you seem to still see some benefit in the future use of alcohol. What might prove useful could be a cost benefit analysis. Take a sheet of paper and on one side list all the things that are positive concerning the use of alcohol. List everything both internal and external that you gain when you drink. On the other side list everything negative that arises from the use of alcohol. List all the physical, financial, emotional (spiritual if you like) problems that will either definitely or potentially arise from your drinking. When I did this exercise, side one had maybe 3 items. Side 2, I stopped myself at around 50. This proved that for me, moderation just wasn’t prudent. This helped fortify my commitment to abstinence. Perhaps it can help you.
Here is some perspective from someone who does not believe that anyone is powerless over an inert substance like alcohol and does not believe that a chemical dependency to it is a disease. Central to achieving abstinence (sobriety) is a commitment to it. One must fully examine their use of alcohol and be fully ready accept and deal with ANY of the consequences, good or bad, that come from continued use. Statistically speaking, people who have become chemically dependant to a substance have greater success in eliminating the negative consequences of the substance by eliminating the substance. That is common sense. However, you seem to still see some benefit in the future use of alcohol. What might prove useful could be a cost benefit analysis. Take a sheet of paper and on one side list all the things that are positive concerning the use of alcohol. List everything both internal and external that you gain when you drink. On the other side list everything negative that arises from the use of alcohol. List all the physical, financial, emotional (spiritual if you like) problems that will either definitely or potentially arise from your drinking. When I did this exercise, side one had maybe 3 items. Side 2, I stopped myself at around 50. This proved that for me, moderation just wasn’t prudent. This helped fortify my commitment to abstinence. Perhaps it can help you.
Member
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Dreaming Summer
Posts: 821
I can only offer my own experience.Sure,there were times when I could have a couple of drinks and not want or need anymore.But I would eventually and inevitably wind up getting smashed again.And yet,I could not tell you why sometimes I got drunk and sometimes I didn't.My own behavior baffled me.It is far safer for me not to drink at all,then to continue playing Russian Roulette.
The Big Book tells me that most alkies cling to the notion that someday,somehow we'll be able to drink normally.And that the delusion that we are like other people has to be smashed.Many of us have to shatter that delusion ourselves through bitter experience.We learn the hard way.I know I did.
I wish you luck with your experiment.But if it doesn't work out,you know what to do.Take care,
phoenix
The Big Book tells me that most alkies cling to the notion that someday,somehow we'll be able to drink normally.And that the delusion that we are like other people has to be smashed.Many of us have to shatter that delusion ourselves through bitter experience.We learn the hard way.I know I did.
I wish you luck with your experiment.But if it doesn't work out,you know what to do.Take care,
phoenix
Member
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Zion, Illinois
Posts: 3,411
Originally posted by bartender129
Kblue,
Here is some perspective from someone who does not believe that anyone is powerless over an inert substance like alcohol and does not believe that a chemical dependency to it is a disease. Central to achieving abstinence (sobriety) is a commitment to it. One must fully examine their use of alcohol and be fully ready accept and deal with ANY of the consequences, good or bad, that come from continued use. Statistically speaking, people who have become chemically dependant to a substance have greater success in eliminating the negative consequences of the substance by eliminating the substance. That is common sense. However, you seem to still see some benefit in the future use of alcohol. What might prove useful could be a cost benefit analysis. Take a sheet of paper and on one side list all the things that are positive concerning the use of alcohol. List everything both internal and external that you gain when you drink. On the other side list everything negative that arises from the use of alcohol. List all the physical, financial, emotional (spiritual if you like) problems that will either definitely or potentially arise from your drinking. When I did this exercise, side one had maybe 3 items. Side 2, I stopped myself at around 50. This proved that for me, moderation just wasn’t prudent. This helped fortify my commitment to abstinence. Perhaps it can help you.
Kblue,
Here is some perspective from someone who does not believe that anyone is powerless over an inert substance like alcohol and does not believe that a chemical dependency to it is a disease. Central to achieving abstinence (sobriety) is a commitment to it. One must fully examine their use of alcohol and be fully ready accept and deal with ANY of the consequences, good or bad, that come from continued use. Statistically speaking, people who have become chemically dependant to a substance have greater success in eliminating the negative consequences of the substance by eliminating the substance. That is common sense. However, you seem to still see some benefit in the future use of alcohol. What might prove useful could be a cost benefit analysis. Take a sheet of paper and on one side list all the things that are positive concerning the use of alcohol. List everything both internal and external that you gain when you drink. On the other side list everything negative that arises from the use of alcohol. List all the physical, financial, emotional (spiritual if you like) problems that will either definitely or potentially arise from your drinking. When I did this exercise, side one had maybe 3 items. Side 2, I stopped myself at around 50. This proved that for me, moderation just wasn’t prudent. This helped fortify my commitment to abstinence. Perhaps it can help you.
The above experiment might be helpful. Problem is that I have a tendency to minimize and excuse things I'm trying to justify. So, I suggest along with making the list, enlist the help and input from close family members and friends who won't BS you. Let them in on your thoughts about your situational experiment and make sure they understand that you expect honesty. In the event that the list thingy fails to bring home the point, try some more controlled drinking as suggested in the Big Book. IF you're alcoholic, the point will definately be brought home to you, and hopefully you'll come back and share your experience with us.
Hey Bartender129,
Just a quick question.
You stated above that side one had about 3 things listed and side two you stopped at about 50. If you aren't powerless over alcohol, how come the positive things didn't number 50 and the negative only 3?
Just curious!
learning
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Where I need to be
Posts: 310
Music,
Firstly, that is very good advice. Enlisting the opinions of those close to us can prove very helpful in defining the external costs and benefits of our alcohol usage. They are able to outline for us all of the negative consequences of our use of alcohol based on what they have seen first hand. What they can not speak to is all of the internal factors of alcohol usage. To identify these, we need to honestly and objectively examine ourselves and not engage in any form of justification. If you are a person who has a tendency to minimize and excuse things about yourself, you need to work on your self awareness skills to effectively carry out a cost benefit exercise. I have read many books that help a person work on self awareness and would be glad to recommend them if anyone is interested.
Secondly as to your question, the powerless thing has been debated ad nausea. What I took from that debate is one thing. Debating does not help someone like kblue who asked a question. What does help is each person here, who has had success with abstinence, outlining the techniques that work for them.
Good day.
Firstly, that is very good advice. Enlisting the opinions of those close to us can prove very helpful in defining the external costs and benefits of our alcohol usage. They are able to outline for us all of the negative consequences of our use of alcohol based on what they have seen first hand. What they can not speak to is all of the internal factors of alcohol usage. To identify these, we need to honestly and objectively examine ourselves and not engage in any form of justification. If you are a person who has a tendency to minimize and excuse things about yourself, you need to work on your self awareness skills to effectively carry out a cost benefit exercise. I have read many books that help a person work on self awareness and would be glad to recommend them if anyone is interested.
Secondly as to your question, the powerless thing has been debated ad nausea. What I took from that debate is one thing. Debating does not help someone like kblue who asked a question. What does help is each person here, who has had success with abstinence, outlining the techniques that work for them.
Good day.
Member
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Zion, Illinois
Posts: 3,411
Bartender129,
You wrote:
Secondly as to your question, the powerless thing has been debated ad nausea. What I took from that debate is one thing. Debating does not help someone like kblue who asked a question. What does help is each person here, who has had success with abstinence, outlining the techniques that work for them.
I agree! There's no room for debate here. I'm not wanting to debate anything. I just asked a simple question, which you didn't answer.
I accepted my powerlessness some time ago and I am in tune today with the way I can rationalize things to make them sound "not so bad." I suggested to kblue just exactly what I meant to suggest, which like I said is right out of the Big Book. KB will get a lot more answer a lot faster than by sitting down with paper and a writing stick.
I'm still waiting for an answer to the 50/3 thing I mentioned...
You wrote:
Secondly as to your question, the powerless thing has been debated ad nausea. What I took from that debate is one thing. Debating does not help someone like kblue who asked a question. What does help is each person here, who has had success with abstinence, outlining the techniques that work for them.
I agree! There's no room for debate here. I'm not wanting to debate anything. I just asked a simple question, which you didn't answer.
I accepted my powerlessness some time ago and I am in tune today with the way I can rationalize things to make them sound "not so bad." I suggested to kblue just exactly what I meant to suggest, which like I said is right out of the Big Book. KB will get a lot more answer a lot faster than by sitting down with paper and a writing stick.
I'm still waiting for an answer to the 50/3 thing I mentioned...
learning
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Where I need to be
Posts: 310
Music,
I assert that you really don’t want to hear my answer. My very successful recovery techniques do not accept the beliefs of powerlessness, the disease concept, the big book et all that are central to the form of recovery that is successful for you. I respect your beliefs and am glad that you have found freedom with them. The truth is that you cannot say for certain that what you have offered from the big book will work a whole lot faster than a cost benefit analysis. Recovery is not one size fits all. And minimizing a cost benefit analysis with comments such as a writing stick and list thingie helps whom? You? Do these comment reaffirm for you that the way you have chosen is working well for you? If so, you’re welcome.
I assert that you really don’t want to hear my answer. My very successful recovery techniques do not accept the beliefs of powerlessness, the disease concept, the big book et all that are central to the form of recovery that is successful for you. I respect your beliefs and am glad that you have found freedom with them. The truth is that you cannot say for certain that what you have offered from the big book will work a whole lot faster than a cost benefit analysis. Recovery is not one size fits all. And minimizing a cost benefit analysis with comments such as a writing stick and list thingie helps whom? You? Do these comment reaffirm for you that the way you have chosen is working well for you? If so, you’re welcome.
Member
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Zion, Illinois
Posts: 3,411
Originally posted by bartender129
Music,
I assert that you really don’t want to hear my answer. My very successful recovery techniques do not accept the beliefs of powerlessness, the disease concept, the big book et all that are central to the form of recovery that is successful for you. I respect your beliefs and am glad that you have found freedom with them. The truth is that you cannot say for certain that what you have offered from the big book will work a whole lot faster than a cost benefit analysis. Recovery is not one size fits all. And minimizing a cost benefit analysis with comments such as a writing stick and list thingie helps whom? You? Do these comment reaffirm for you that the way you have chosen is working well for you? If so, you’re welcome.
Music,
I assert that you really don’t want to hear my answer. My very successful recovery techniques do not accept the beliefs of powerlessness, the disease concept, the big book et all that are central to the form of recovery that is successful for you. I respect your beliefs and am glad that you have found freedom with them. The truth is that you cannot say for certain that what you have offered from the big book will work a whole lot faster than a cost benefit analysis. Recovery is not one size fits all. And minimizing a cost benefit analysis with comments such as a writing stick and list thingie helps whom? You? Do these comment reaffirm for you that the way you have chosen is working well for you? If so, you’re welcome.
So, having asked my question and received no answer, I'll leave it at that.
Thanks for your time.
PS..You asserted incorrectly! If I hadn't a desire to hear your answer, I wouldn't have asked.
learning
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Where I need to be
Posts: 310
Music,
If your question arose out of curiosity, I apologize. I originally came to this board with an agenda of confrontation and debate. I have since made a commitment to this forum, and myself, to not engage in such silliness and only provide constructive adive where I belive I can help.
My thoughts on powerlessness can be found here:
http://soberrecovery.com/forums/show...threadid=12862
Again I apologize.
If your question arose out of curiosity, I apologize. I originally came to this board with an agenda of confrontation and debate. I have since made a commitment to this forum, and myself, to not engage in such silliness and only provide constructive adive where I belive I can help.
My thoughts on powerlessness can be found here:
http://soberrecovery.com/forums/show...threadid=12862
Again I apologize.
Member
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Northern CA
Posts: 1,432
Originally posted by Music
[BHey Bartender129,
Just a quick question.
You stated above that side one had about 3 things listed and side two you stopped at about 50. If you aren't powerless over alcohol, how come the positive things didn't number 50 and the negative only 3?
Just curious! [/B]
[BHey Bartender129,
Just a quick question.
You stated above that side one had about 3 things listed and side two you stopped at about 50. If you aren't powerless over alcohol, how come the positive things didn't number 50 and the negative only 3?
Just curious!
[/B]
Perhaps I don't understand your question, or your reason for asking it.
The discussion of whether or not we are powerless over alcohol relates to our ability to find, or where or how we find, the motivation and means to achieve and keep the commitment to sobriety.
The point of doing a cost-benefit analysis is more of a first step in dealing with urges. The point of the exercise is to clearly identify what we think alcohol does FOR us and what it does TO us. If it wasn't going to be weighted pretty heavily in the negative column, we wouldn't be seeking sobriety. Right? It's just a somewhat more analytical way of doing what I presume you and most others here have done, possibly more intuitively, in coming to the conclusion that it's time to stop.
When I'm engaging in conversations with people who are new to sobriety, I often notice they have difficulty identifying the "benefits" of alcohol. But those can be the key to recognizing triggers: identifying the beliefs that we hold which allow us to give ourselves permission to start drinking. Recognizing and disputing those beliefs has been successful for me. After all, we once drank for some reason.
I believe that if you fail to recognize (or remember) why you drank in the first place, you're likely to start again. That is my immediate concern about the "experiment" which started this thread. But it's a very useful discussion, because my first question would be "what benefit would you believe those drinks will provide?" and my second would be "can you really drink moderately without gradually developing the same unhealthy behaviors you practiced before? Is that a rational belief?"
Similarly, one of the major costs on my CBA is the anxiety my drinking produced in my children. I can't imagine any benefit (relaxation, reduced tension, etc.) I'd get from one glass of wine--which I probably could drink without going on to two or three (emphasis on the 'probably')--which would be worth the anxiety that would cost them.
It doesn't matter how many benefits I perceive if I can recognize that any single cost outweighs all those benefits. It isn't a scoreboard, it is a tool to help us recognize and begin to weigh those costs against those perceived benefits.
Don S
Member
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: the Netherlands
Posts: 141
Don, I found the most usefull part of the CBA is that the benefits have eroded to about 0 over the years while the costs had grown to be overwhelming. And I was still on the way to the store. Kind of shows how insane this habit is. Forcing yourself to rub your nose in the fact that what you're doing doesn't make any sense lays the groundwork for thinking that does. By the way Don, working on the first full 24 hours here, and so far so good.
Wiebe
Wiebe
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